Bible Study Scholar, know thyself

[JohnD]

Hebrews 4:12 (KJV)
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Such a powerful, descriptive verse of the Word of God that it is hard to just focus in on one aspect of it. Within it is a key passage on the distinction between the soul and the spirit. Though the two terms are often used interchangeably throughout scripture they are not the same thing. On occasion the term is used interchangeably with the body as well.

"The soul that sins shall die..." Ezekiel 18:20. But can a spirit die? People speak of spiritual death (which is not found in scripture by the way) misapplying the second death which is the death of condemned human beings after their resurrection (Revelation 20:11-15) to bow their knees and confess Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father (Philippians 2:10-11).

It is amazing how little we know about our own make up, the things that we are made of. Especially so when the truth about the subject is before our very eyes in scripture. Often we throw up our hands in the face of all the misinterpretations and conjecture that litter the landscape. And it can be frustrating to the point of being disheartened... when one has not studied the Word of God enough at least to find the biblical answers to the opinions and interpretations of men.

2 Peter 1:20-21 (KJV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Mark 7:7-13 (KJV)
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Matthew 16:13-23 (KJV)
13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

 

[JohnD]

The (three) that are me...

It was late... I neglected to post the scripture:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Chopper]

I agree with your thread. I really appreciate the Scriptures that support a theology based on The Word of God, not the foolish traditions of man!

In some of the circles that I have traveled in the past, there were dichotomous believers and I could never join their ranks. Baptists have always, for the most part, have been Trichotomous believers which makes much more sense according to the Word of God thru the Scriptures.

Thank you for your efforts in research and presentation. This doctrine is really important, and worthy of your thread. I'm hoping to add to my understanding what others have to say on this subject.

 

[JohnD]

Thank you for that.

 

[JohnD]

The rich man and Lazarus account (to my knowledge parables do not name names) in Luke 16:19-31 is an account of the spirits of the rich man, Lazarus, and of Abraham. This is not after the resurrection. The resurrection of the saints will be with Jesus at his coming.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 (KJV)
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Paul wrote several years after the cross (and ascension of the Lord Jesus). So how could there be any dead in Christ if the resurrection already took place? What but the spirits of the saints coming with Christ in the clouds could they be? Especially so that their bodies will rise first at the second coming... which means they are not yet bodily resurrected.

As a reminder, the resurrection is of our bodies:

Romans 8:23 (KJV)
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

There will be a rapture (which is something completely different). So this is not a refutation of the rapture as if the doctrine was just another way of teaching the general resurrection at the second coming.

Point I am making here is... look at all the physical-like attributes of the spirits of Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man.

Anthropomorphism? Possibly, but unlikely. If you are going to draw that card in your explanation, where do you stop spiritualizing the text? It always struck me as ironic how anthropomorphism (physicalizing or speaking in physical terms that which is not physical) is used to spiritualize the meaning out of a text. Anthropomorphism does exist in scripture but not where the use of it is debatable.

 

[JohnD]

Something else to consider...

What does a spirit look like?

In my graphic of what makes me me... I deliberately made the spirit and the soul resemble the body. Tradition is sketchy on the subject but generally holds that the spirit is like a cloud or will of the wisp... but there is no indication that our spirit is any less than the spitting image of our bodies. In fact the rich man and Lazarus account includes recognition of each character in the account... akin to the mount of transfiguration where Moses and Elijah appeared beside the glorified Christ... was it glory or a glimpse into the spirit realm? And who told Peter James and John it was Moses and Elijah?

 

[JohnD]

Matthew 10:28 (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

This verse has given some the occasion to interpret it as meaning the spirit and that the spirit can be killed / annihilated / made to cease to exist... from their argument that hell is not an actual place or that the lake of fire is a place to destroy bodies and spirits instantaneously so there will be no eternal suffering just eternal nonexistence. This would have been a viable interpretation if there were not so many texts in scripture to the contrary or if the word for spirit (pneuma) had been used in the Greek text rather than soul (psuche)... but psuche was used and the texts about eternal suffering exist.

The point being that when the spirit departs from the body, the body immediately begins to decay and the soul is no more. The scripture only speaks of spirit existing apart from the body. If there is a passage contrary to this I have yet to find it but am willing to bow my understanding to the inspired Word of God if texts to the contrary exist.

Death has the threefold effect of the spirit leaving the body, the body decaying to return to the base elements, and the soul ceases to exist.

This would answer the three camps on the subject of what happens when we die (conscious afterlife, soul sleep, nonexistence) and the scripture verse that support all three. All three are true. In death, the body appears to sleep (john 11:11-14), the spirit departs and is conscious (and either goes to be with the Lord see 2 Corinthians 5:1-8 if you are a believer or to Sheol as an unbeliever see Luke 16:23), and the soul ceases to exist (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

So, wouldn't that mean that the Matthew 10:28 passage is indeed referring to the spirit? Since man by killing the body can cause the actual soul to cease to exist and the text says he cannot kill the "soul..."

No. Because there remains a resurrection of all mankind to the judgment / day of the Lord in which every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father. After which the condemned will be thrown into the lake of fire where their body will vaporize, their soul will cease to exist for all eternity to come, and their spirit will remain in torment forever.

If spirits could be exterminated / made to cease to exist... then there would have been no need for a hell / lake of fire.

Matthew 25:41 (KJV)
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The text is about condemned humans going to what was (originally) created for the devil and his followers.

Abraham's Bosom has been empty since the day Jesus died on the cross (Luke 24:43 / 1 Peter 3:18-19 / Ephesians 4:8-10 / 2 Corinthians 5:8)​

 

[JohnD]

The soul is often used interchangeably in scripture with both spirit and body because it is the buffer between the two realities / realms that make up you and I. I deliberately used the color is the graphic to illustrate what happened in colored light when blue and yellow merge or overlap (green).

And when the two lights (blue and yellow) cease to overlap (the departure of the spirit from the body) the green simply vanishes.

Applying this to what the scripture points to as the mark of the beast (a six sided star with six points and a six sided center....

It is the number of man (a man)...

Just a thought...​

 

[Chopper]

I have no argument to your presentation. Very Scriptural and makes sense. I remember Tim and I discussing "torment" for those committed to the lake of fire and I was a little wishy-washy, Since then I have re-examined my position and have to go with the word torment because I'm convinced that that word is Scriptural.

I'm curious about those in Revelation 4:4, they wear white garments and have golden crowns on their heads....Also Rev. 7:9, people standing, had white robes on with palm branches in their hands.

They are spirits without bodies?

 

[JohnD]

Sorry for the delayed response.

I am working two jobs now for the same pay I used to have at the one (nationwide pay cut / long story) and I see it as being blessed to have health and work.

It just really cuts into my ministerial time in places like this wonderful place.

The key verse in Revelation (IMHO) is:

Revelation 1:19 (KJV)
19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

It can be said "the things which were, the things which are, and the things which will come or have yet to come..." because Revelation 12 is clearly about events that were the past to the author of Revelation (the birth and ascension of Christ). So, in Revelation 1:19, the things which are include all things which happened up to that point. And in my personal opinion that point of reference is the cross of Christ (the true divider of history and the two major covenants (see Hebrews 9:16-17). So the passages you referenced would have to be interpreted with the inclusion of the verses we discussed about the state of beings presently in heaven. Absent from the body present with the Lord and the dead bodies in Christ will rise first... etc.

So, the vision(s) would be interpreted as John getting a glimpse of the future in the hereafter.

Remember, even though Revelation (like the rest of the New Testament) was originally written in Greek, it was recorded by Jewish people with Hebrew mindsets. And the story telling / account-giving in that mindst is given to reverting back to a previous point for clarification.

Example, President Truman dropped the only nuclear bombs launched against an enemy to end WWII.

The western thought is to move on to the election defeat of Dewey and the Eisenhower, Kennedy etc...

But the Hebrew mindset would go back to the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor.

Western story telling in broadcasting media especially has developed this method somewhat... take the opening scenes in the movie After Earth showing Jaden Smith lying in a heap on the ground motionless... then comes the caption "three days earlier."

Anyway, the interpretation that John the Revelator saw (while in the spirit) the future in eternity is a viable interpretation and goes hand in glove with the passages that indicate Jesus alone is the one resurrected human being to date and the rest are disembodied spirits.

God bless.