Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

[_ Old Earth _] Scopes continued

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
So the movie Inherit the Wind, conveniently leaves out the background of the case that I have just revealed to you. The New York A.C.L.U. had actually spent a great deal of money at that time advertising in Tennessee Newspapers, for a teacher to be this guinea pig. It was, in fact, one of the alleged “hayseeds“, George Rappleyea, who persuaded Scopes to be the prostitute for this deceptive cause! In truth, most of the people in Dayton did not give one hoot about such things one way or the other! It’s true! Most people didn’t even care!


Some on one extreme naturally screamed and made a lot of noise as well as some on the other extreme, and as usual extremists are the ones that always cause all the trouble. Most people, like everywhere (in the world in fact), were much too busy trying to stay employed, feed their kids, and survive, than to be bothered with this petty politiking!


Unfortunately, most of them, just like the majority today, blindly trust their educators and representatives to do what is right, and trust their lawyers and politicians to hack out these kinds of differences justly. What a sad deception that always is. Now that trust may be demonstrated to be rightly placed in many circumstances, but then as now, there are an ever growing number of questionable exceptions.


These reasons are pretty much the same cause of the lack of public awareness in our time. Deception masters from any camp know all too well that the masses are too busy to really dig in and find out the truth, and in fact, they help encourage things that divert our attention from the serious stuff happening right under our noses.


There was however one group of people, represented by Bryan, who were actually interested in opening up the possibilities, but not willing to allow this theory to be presented as if it were an established fact. The misrepresentation of the people as being nearly insane Bible thumpers and hayseeds was an intentional Horrorwood dramatization. Others on his side were outright against it. Most of the Democrat and Republican people’s concern was against indoctrination or persuasion! Neither extreme wanted the other opinion included at all. Neither had been demonstrated to be unquestionably true. And still have not.


The Scopes’ people, Clarence Darrow and the New York A.C.L.U., did in fact have a definite premeditated agenda, which was to sell the notion taught in Civic Biology and close the minds of the masses to all but this one idea, which in my opinion history and real science, has proved to be an error. Their true motivation was in no wise actual education, it was purely humanist neo-Darwinian indoctrination, and it was not even close to humanitarian (remember poor Ota). Most of them were vehement eugenicists and in no wise humane. The whole debate was entirely political in nature and not a matter of civil rights at all!


The A.C.L.U. at that time, were all supporters of the self-professed “Eugenics Educator” Margaret Sanger, but the real Democrats (allegedly the people’s party but who were equally filled with racist notions), were strongly behind William Jennings Bryan and sought to protect the system as outlined in the Constitution of the United States.


Many of the elitist, highly financed special interest groups were simultaneously involved in massive lobbying efforts to achieve the goal of implementing this fairly new, Darwinian oriented humanist agenda that would be pushed even further by the Dewey-ites down the line. You would to be educated to produce a particular, premeditated outcome.


a) The actual threat to the man John Scopes in this trial, was a mere $200.00 fine, and carried absolutely no fear whatsoever of imprisonment! That whole notion was just another purposeful lie of the emotionally hyped media presentation.


b) He simply broke a hotly debated, fairly recent law, by presenting an unauthorized teaching as if it were an established and obvious fact, which carried very serious racist conclusions into the classroom!


Now that is the truth! You can either accept it, or continue to live in the matrix-like delusion of indoctrination! The underlying motivation of this trial was not the civil liberties of a poor victimized science teacher, but rather to benefit a political agenda of these neo-Darwinian special interest groups, and nothing else!


In the end, John Scopes was found guilty. He was slapped on the proverbial wrist for his intentional misrepresentation, and was made to pay a $100.00 fine, and was subsequently barred from substituting as a Biology teacher in the State of Tennessee ever again. The fine and all court fees were in fact paid for him, as well as compensation for time lost, by his A.C.L.U. counterparts at the time, just as one would have guessed!


The Darrow case did succeed at convincing a number of people across the country of the factualness of this theory purely on the emotional momentum provided via the publicity campaign before and after the trial (generating emotional momentum is a key to any successful propaganda plan).


A second major group of supporters of the Darrow side of the case were the wealthy white southerners (especially in Tennessee) who saw what the potential support for such a theory meant for their already racist world view and political endeavors (see below).


The Darrow case heavily relied on a number of hoaxes currently being pawned off as missing links which now have been discredited. He relied on allegedly irrefutable examples like Heakel’s alleged Biogenetic Law which likewise has been proven to be a hoax, etc.


Here is the conclusion of the section of the actual grade school Textbook (Civic Biology, Hunter, 1914) that was used by John Scopes in that public school in Dayton, Tennessee.


This is what was being fought for and insisted upon by the A.C.L.U.! See if you can sense why protest against such an intentional indoctrination as being the truth was appropriate and important.



At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan, and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.” (emphasis mine)



Now Clarence Darrow actually lost his case, yet the racist, sexist, eugenicist’s world domineering agenda was placed in a position of gaining a legislative foothold in an acceptable disguise to the easily manipulated masses as the savior of human rights (LOL). This intentional fraudulence (to this day this theory has never been proven to be true) gave them definite avenues for influencing the development of the as yet future of Outcome based public education here in the U.S.A! Read it again and tell me if you would have defended such a position? If you would have you should be ashamed of yourself. Only racist, sexist Caucasian males could possibly see any benefit in perpetuating such a vile evil against humanity.
 
So the movie Inherit the Wind, conveniently leaves out the background of the case that I have just revealed to you. The New York A.C.L.U. had actually spent a great deal of money at that time advertising in Tennessee Newspapers, for a teacher to be this guinea pig. It was, in fact, one of the alleged “hayseeds“, George Rappleyea, who persuaded Scopes to be the prostitute for this deceptive cause! In truth, most of the people in Dayton did not give one hoot about such things one way or the other! It’s true! Most people didn’t even care!

You've been a bit misled about that. In fact, the local businessmen cooked up the deal, and it was Rappelyea, a college educated mining engineer, and F.E. Robinson, the school board president, and owner of the local drugstore, who convinced Scopes to teach about evolution. Neither was the yokel you've been led to believe. It was a promotional scheme to put Dayton on the map. Scopes was the football coach as well as the science teacher, and was quite popular among the people of Dayton; before the trial, some schoolboys who were to testify against him, misunderstood the whole plan, and hid out in the woods. Scopes had to go find them and explain so they'd come in and testify against him.

Some on one extreme naturally screamed and made a lot of noise as well as some on the other extreme, and as usual extremists are the ones that always cause all the trouble.

You were misled about that, too. Dayton, far from being a hotbed of Bible-thumping bigots, was a very nice town, of mannerly and moderate people, who took it all in stride. H.L. Mencken who came expecting to be repulsed by the locals, became quite fond of them and the town.

There was however one group of people, represented by Bryan, who were actually interested in opening up the possibilities, but not willing to allow this theory to be presented as if it were an established fact.

Most would have been amused or offended by the notion of young Earth creationism, which had not yet been invented. They were generally old Earth Creationists, as was Bryan. They had no problem with many millions of years, so long as God was behind it all.

The Scopes’ people, Clarence Darrow and the New York A.C.L.U., did in fact have a definite premeditated agenda

Checkable source? Or just venting here?

Most of them were vehement eugenicists and in no wise humane.

Like Mr. Sprinkle, the founder of the Institute for Creation Research? He was a vehement eugenist. But as you learned, Darwin called eugenic ideas an "overwhelming evil", and later Darwinists like Punnet and Morgan had shown the whole mess to be unscientific as well as evil. Nevertheless, creationists continue to pound the drum for eugenics. As late as 1991, ICR director Henry Morris was writing about the supposed "genetic character" of blacks, that he supposed made them intellectually and spiritually inferior to whites. This is not to say that all creationists are racists today. But it's disturbing that these creationist leaders could promote such ideas and no other creationist called them out on it.

He simply broke a hotly debated, fairly recent law, by presenting an unauthorized teaching as if it were an established and obvious fact, which carried very serious racist conclusions into the classroom!

See above. As you learned earlier, racism was in direct contradiction to Darwinism. Darwin regarded other races as inferior by culture, but acknowledged that they would, if brought to England, soon be no different than whites living there. In fact, he acknowledged learning much about animals from a black man living in England, whom he characterized as very intelligent. On the other hand, we see Morris (and into the 1990s) blathering about genetic differences that made blacks inferior. This is one of the important differences between science and creationism.

In the end, John Scopes was found guilty. He was slapped on the proverbial wrist for his intentional misrepresentation, and was made to pay a $100.00 fine, and was subsequently barred from substituting as a Biology teacher in the State of Tennessee ever again.

You were misled about that, too. Scopes wanted to be found guilty; the businessmen who put him up to it, depended on that, as did Darrow, who expected to be able to appeal the decision and get the law tossed out on Constitutional grounds (it was obviously unConstitutional; no one actually expected it to be enforced). There was a glitch which no one knew at the time, which Scopes later told a reporter in confidence:

Scopes explained that he had missed several hours of class, and the evolution lesson had been one of them. The boys who had testified against him, could not remember whether they had studied evolution or not. And he had been afraid since the trial began that he might be put on the witness stand, where he would have to admit his innocence.
Ray Ginger, Six Days or Forever Oxford Press 1958 p. 178

There's more than that. In the appeals process, the State Supreme Court upset everyone by voiding the conviction, but on nolle prosequi, grounds that gave no basis for further appeal, based on a technicality about who was legally able to impose the fine. And Scopes' conviction evaporated. Surprise. You've been misled one more time.

The fine and all court fees were in fact paid for him, as well as compensation for time lost, by his A.C.L.U. counterparts at the time, just as one would have guessed!

See above.

A second major group of supporters of the Darrow side of the case were the wealthy white southerners (especially in Tennessee) who saw what the potential support for such a theory meant for their already racist world view and political endeavors (see below).

See higher above. Eugenic and racist ideas were on the creationist side. The last world-class biologist who was anti-Darwinian, Louis Agassiz, argued that blacks weren't even descended from Adam and Eve. You've been misled about that, too.

Agassiz had visited several plantations in 1850 while in South Carolina to address a meeting of scientists in Charleston on the topic of the “separate creation” of the human races. That notion, which denied the unity of mankind, seemed to provide a scientific or natural basis for racial inequality and slavery. After the meeting, at which the Harvard scientist thrilled his Southern audience by endorsing the doctrine that mankind had no common origin, Agassiz expressed interest in examining African-born slaves.
http://usslave.blogspot.com/2011/10/black-bodies-white-science-louis.html

Agassiz, having moved to the United States from Europe, had a profound affect on textbooks, before Darwin's theory took hold. This is from a textbook written in 1914, before Darwinism became established in the U.S.:

At the present time there exist upon the earth five races or varieties of man, each very different from the other in instincts, social customs, and, to an extent, structure. These are the Ethiopian or negro type, originating in Africa; the Malay or brown race, from the islands of the Pacific; the American Indian; the Mongolian or yellow race, including the natives of China, Japan, and the Eskimos; and finally, the highest type of all, the Caucasians, represented by the civilized white inhabitants of Europe and America.” (emphasis mine)

However, his argument was not that blacks were less-evolved humans. His argument was that they weren't humans at all. As you see, creationists in the South loved his message. This is the origin of the racism promoted by the Institute for Creation Research:

Often the Hamites, especially the Negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane matters, they have eventually been displaced by the intellectual and philosophical acumen of the Japhethites and the religious zeal of the Semites.
Henry Morris, Director of the ICR, in The Beginning of the World, 1991


Read it again and tell me if you would have defended such a position. Only racist, sexist Caucasian males could possibly see any benefit in perpetuating such a vile evil against humanity.
 
Something else about that movie..

Inherit The Wind: Intellectual Pornography!

Shown in classrooms as an accurate historical account (docu-drama) of the Scopes Trial to deceive students for over 50 years. The film is full of lies and deception and very anti-Christian. The film is a deliberate misrepresentation of the trial and designed to sway the audience against Christians and towards evolution. This film is intellectual pornography and quite unsuitable for any classroom! What value is there in distorting history? Another typical Hollywood movie where good Christians are portrayed as bigoted buffoons and the devil is the hero! Amazingly, all of the proofs of evolution used in the actual Scopes trial have now been discarded as fraud by evolutionists!

http://www.bible.ca/tracks/textbook-fraud-scopes-trial-inherit-wind.htm

Its not hard to understand really Gods word has been under attack since that fateful day in the garden when Satan said "hath God said"

tob
 
Amazingly, all of the proofs of evolution used in the actual Scopes trial have now been discarded as fraud by evolutionists!

You've been misled about that, too. The judge, after one scientist pointed out that there was no conflict between religion and evolution, refused to allow any further expert witness testimony regarding evolution itself. He insisted that the issue was merely whether or not Scopes had taught evolution.

But I'm sure everyone would like to see a checkable source confirming your claim.
 
You've been misled about that, too. The judge, after one scientist pointed out that there was no conflict between religion and evolution, refused to allow any further expert witness testimony regarding evolution itself. He insisted that the issue was merely whether or not Scopes had taught evolution.

But I'm sure everyone would like to see a checkable source confirming your claim.

If you want a checkable source turn on your nearest television or go to a movie theater its all geared to the ungodly world we live in..

tob

*edit: or Google this "evolution frauds and myths"
 
Last edited:
Barbarian suggests:
But I'm sure everyone would like to see a checkable source confirming your claim.

If you want a checkable source turn on your nearest television or go to a movie theater its all geared to the ungodly world we live in..

So nothing? If you can't support your claims, why do you think they are true? This one is simple and testable:

tob claims:
Amazingly, all of the proofs of evolution used in the actual Scopes trial have now been discarded as fraud by evolutionists!

Show us what you have.
 
Barbarian suggests:
But I'm sure everyone would like to see a checkable source confirming your claim.



So nothing? If you can't support your claims, why do you think they are true? This one is simple and testable:

tob claims:


Show us what you have.

There isn't enough room.. Google this "evolution frauds and myths"

tob

*edit: Better yet read your bible it explains life in easy to read English with no mistakes..
 
Nope! Was not misled about anything. He was NOT the science teacher but was subbing! Also I said "alleged" Hayseed as it was the movie (a propaganda piece) that tried to make the people of Dayton seem like hayseeds and I am glad you admit it was an intentionally concocteds contrived misrepresentation (glad at least on this one you did not try to excuse it away).
 
tob claims:
Amazingly, all of the proofs of evolution used in the actual Scopes trial have now been discarded as fraud by evolutionists!
Show us what you have.


Just examine the examples given in the text used....
 
Just examine the examples given in the text used....

Unfortunately, no one can come up with any checkable sources. So we're back at square 0.

Nope! Was not misled about anything.

Read it again. The movie and the story you find on creationist websites has been radically altered from the truth. Check out the book I cited; that and many other books accurately recount what really happened.

He was NOT the science teacher but was subbing!

He was a science teacher, and a coach. He was just subbing for the regular teacher that day.

He earned a degree at the University of Kentucky in 1924, with a major in law and a minor in geology.[2] Scopes moved to Dayton where he took a job as the Rhea County High School's football coach and occasionally filled in as substitute teacher when regular members of the staff were off work.
Wikipedia

Also I said "alleged" Hayseed as it was the movie (a propaganda piece) that tried to make the people of Dayton seem like hayseeds and I am glad you admit it was an intentionally concocteds contrived misrepresentation

Actually, it was the creationists as well as evolutionists in the town who set up the whole thing. It was a publicity stunt. As you might know, some of the jurors were actually favorable to evolution, and some of the others were upset that the judge refused to allow people to testify about evolutionary theory.

Hollywood just rigged up the story to make it more interesting from their point of view. There were some evolutionists in Dayton who conspired with the creationists there to set up the scheme, but that's about it.
 
Last edited:
First off your alleged "sources" are no better than any other, secondly they do not demonstrate anything different (though adding so additional info) than what I said, and thirdly they still demonstrate exactly what I was saying about the movie....it is inaccurate...and engineered to make the Darrow side appear to be rational and the Bryan side to be almost wild and irrational (powerful propaganda piece....almost as blatant as Reefer Madness) but millions have seen persuaded the movie representation is just about how it went (never learning it was a set up from long before the trial)

And when you say...

He was a science teacher, and a coach. He was just subbing for the regular teacher that day.

University of Kentucky in 1924, with a major in law and a minor in geology.[2] Scopes moved to Dayton where he took a job as the Rhea County High School's football coach and occasionally filled in as substitute teacher when regular members of the staff were off work.
Wikipedia

Not only did you change from THE science teacher (which you declare earlier) to A science teacher, but the very source you site says this coach "occasionally filled in as a substitute"....how exactly does this make what I said "misled"?

Also why keep trying to divert...I know sites like ICR and Talk Origins are extremist and put their spin on things....why do you think I have avoided discussing either?

And who cares if "There were some evolutionists in Dayton who conspired with the creationists there to set up the scheme...", not that anyone anywhere has ever made such a point (that is, if it is true)
 
Last edited:
First off your alleged "sources" are no better than any other,

I gave cites and sources. You have generally not. Your arguments would be more persuasive with checkable sources.

And when you say...
He was a science teacher, and a coach. He was just subbing for the regular teacher that day.

As you see, he was a qualified science teacher, which is why he was chosen to be the teacher who would test the law.

Not only did you change from THE science teacher (which you declare earlier) to A science teacher, but the very source you site says this coach "occasionally filled in as a substitute".

See above. I don't understand you diversion here. What does it matter?

Also why keep trying to divert...I know sites like ICR and Talk Origins are extremist and put their spin on things....

Probably not a good idea to bring up racism, if you want to defend creationism. As you see, creationists, particularly their leaders, have much to be ashamed of.

why do you think I have avoided discussing either?

It would have invalidated your attempt to connect Darwinian theory with racism.

And who cares if "There were some evolutionists in Dayton who conspired with the creationists there to set up the scheme...", not that anyone anywhere has ever made such a point (that is, if it is true)

Just pointing out the fact. They were just trying to get some publicity for Dayton.[/QUOTE]
 
First off your alleged "sources" are no better than any other,
I gave cites and sources. You have generally not. Your arguments would be more persuasive with checkable sources.


Well for the most part I have if you re-read my posts only you probably will not accept those because they disagree with or bring question to yours...

And when you say...
He was a science teacher, and a coach. He was just subbing for the regular teacher that day.
As you see, he was a qualified science teacher, which is why he was chosen to be the teacher who would test the law.


The very source you cited shows (as other sites confirm) that he was NOT the science teacher...if a minor in geology qualifies him at that time in Tennessee I cannot say but he was subbing

See above. I don't understand you diversion here. What does it matter?

Simply a matter of true....THE science teacher says that was is job at the school, where A science teacher says that is what he was (which he also was not) but not there...

if you want to defend creationism. As you see, creationists, particularly their leaders, have much to be ashamed of.
.
Good thing none of my posts were defending Creationism hey?

Paul
 
Last edited:
I asked you this once and I never really got a direct answer so I will ask again because you call yourself a Christian....

Do you believe God created the Universe (hence Nature)....now I did not ask how he brought things about after creation, I am simply asking did He create the Universe? Did He create living things. Did He create mankind?

And do not turn this to mean I am defending "Creationism" it is about what YOU believe...

Paul
 
Last edited:
I asked you this once and I never really got a direct answer so I will ask again because you call yourself a Christian....

You didn't get the answer you wanted, but you got an answer.

Do you believe God created the Universe (hence Nature)...

As you know, I've pointed this out many time before.

.
now I did not ask how he brought things about after creation, I am simply asking did He create the Universe? Did He create living things. Did He create mankind?

What part of "in the beginning, God created Heaven and Earth" is hard to understand? Do you accept that fact or not? If you look in Genesis, you will find that He created everything else using the world He created. Why is that part of his word so hard for you to accept?

And yes, if you walk like a duck and quack like a duck you will frequently be identified as a duck.
 
So the story from tob has changed again. Now, it's not a lack of space, it's "I would like to support my claims, but the evil Barbarian won't let me."
 
It would have invalidated your attempt to connect Darwinian theory with racism.

Galton, the Huxleys, Spencer, Sanger, Stalin, Hitler....and the list goes on regarding people who based their racism and classism on Darwinian theory....I agree racism is a human problem (because lets face it races do not exist, only variety) but it never had an alleged scientific basis until then. However I am sure there were many believers (just like among Christians and Jews) who were not racist.
 

Donations

Total amount
$1,592.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Back
Top