Scriptural Baptism

[Groovy]

Most Christians aren't interested from what manuscript copies translations come from but I do. If you check a translation at 1Jn 5:7, the briefed translations omitted the verse, and if so, many other passages and partial passages are omitted. You can also check 2Sam 21:19, and it says "Elhanan killed Goliath." It's supposed to say "Elhanan killed the brother of Goliath." I can show you many other problems with these translations too.

Whoa, Chap, slow down! First please explain what the problem is with the NIV (for example) noting that v.7-8 is not found in early Greek manuscripts but rather was added by the Vulgate in the 14th century?

 

[netchaplain]

Whoa, Chap, slow down! First please explain what the problem is with the NIV (for example) noting that v.7-8 is not found in early Greek manuscripts but rather was added by the Vulgate in the 14th century?

Erasmus was the one who introduced the "Johannine Comma" (1Jn 5:7), which came from a few Greek manuscripts he discovered:

"Erasmus primarily used a small number of relatively late Byzantine Greek manuscripts for his Textus Receptus.
The Johannine Comma, found in 1 John 5:7-8, is a controversial passage present in some Greek manuscripts, but not the majority. While absent from the earliest and most important Greek manuscripts, it appears in a few later ones, primarily as additions to the text. These include manuscripts like 629, 61, 918, 2473, and 2318. The passage is also found in some Latin manuscripts and was included in various printed editions of the New Testament, notably those based on the Textus Receptus." ---Google AI


All Bible translations derive two primary manuscript sources: The Majority Text and the Minority Text. The Majority Text contains the majority of manuscript copies, which number around 3,500 copies. The Minority Text has only three primary sources (called the Eclectic copies) which include the Vaticanus manuscripts, the Sinaiticus manuscripts and the Alexandrinus manuscripts.

 

[Groovy]

Erasmus was the one who introduced the "Johannine Comma" (1Jn 5:7), which came from a few Greek manuscripts he discovered:

"Erasmus primarily used a small number of relatively late Byzantine Greek manuscripts for his Textus Receptus.
The Johannine Comma, found in 1 John 5:7-8, is a controversial passage present in some Greek manuscripts, but not the majority. While absent from the earliest and most important Greek manuscripts, it appears in a few later ones, primarily as additions to the text. These include manuscripts like 629, 61, 918, 2473, and 2318. The passage is also found in some Latin manuscripts and was included in various printed editions of the New Testament, notably those based on the Textus Receptus." ---Google AI


All Bible translations derive two primary manuscript sources: The Majority Text and the Minority Text. The Majority Text contains the majority of manuscript copies, which number around 3,500 copies. The Minority Text has only three primary sources (called the Eclectic copies) which include the Vaticanus manuscripts, the Sinaiticus manuscripts and the Alexandrinus manuscripts.

Okay, but what is the problem with the NIV (for example) noting that v.7-8 is not found in early Greek manuscripts, which agrees with Google/AI?

 

[netchaplain]

Okay, but what is the problem with the NIV (for example) noting that v.7-8 is not found in early Greek manuscripts, which agrees with Google/AI?

I'm tying to say that the oldest Greek manuscripts are corrupt, the four I mentioned, and that's usually the farthest I go with this issue because most do not understand the problems involved.

In his book "Which Bible," David Otis Fuller, a renowned scholar and writer repeated a truth learned from the scholarly book of Jasper James Ray that "Within the first hundred years after the death of the Apostles, Irenaeus said concerning Marcion the Gnostic, "Wherefore also Marcion and his followers have betaken themselves to mutilating the Scriptures, not acknowledging some books at all, and curtailing the gospel according to Luke and the Epistles of Paul, they assert that these alone are authentic which they themselves have shortened."

Myself, I do not think most of the Church of Christ will realize the seriousness of this ill-gotten farce until the Lord Jesus' returns.

I can prove more of the decadence contained in the omissions, transpositions and interpolations of the modern translations if you like!

 

[Groovy]

I'm tying to say that the oldest Greek manuscripts are corrupt, the four I mentioned, and that's usually the farthest I go with this issue because most do not understand the problems involved.

In his book "Which Bible," David Otis Fuller, a renowned scholar and writer repeated a truth learned from the scholarly book of Jasper James Ray that "Within the first hundred years after the death of the Apostles, Irenaeus said concerning Marcion the Gnostic, "Wherefore also Marcion and his followers have betaken themselves to mutilating the Scriptures, not acknowledging some books at all, and curtailing the gospel according to Luke and the Epistles of Paul, they assert that these alone are authentic which they themselves have shortened."

Myself, I do not think most of the Church of Christ will realize the seriousness of this ill-gotten farce until the Lord Jesus' returns.

I can prove more of the decadence contained in the omissions, transpositions and interpolations of the modern translations if you like!

Well, first please explain why you think

I'm tying to say that the oldest Greek manuscripts are corrupt, the four I mentioned, and that's usually the farthest I go with this issue because most do not understand the problems involved.

In his book "Which Bible," David Otis Fuller, a renowned scholar and writer repeated a truth learned from the scholarly book of Jasper James Ray that "Within the first hundred years after the death of the Apostles, Irenaeus said concerning Marcion the Gnostic, "Wherefore also Marcion and his followers have betaken themselves to mutilating the Scriptures, not acknowledging some books at all, and curtailing the gospel according to Luke and the Epistles of Paul, they assert that these alone are authentic which they themselves have shortened."

Myself, I do not think most of the Church of Christ will realize the seriousness of this ill-gotten farce until the Lord Jesus' returns.

I can prove more of the decadence contained in the omissions, transpositions and interpolations of the modern translations if you like!

Well, what you are proving is that extant versions of the Bible are the result of a complicated history comparable to making sausage, and we cannot know which version is correct, so we must have faith that God ensured they all are sufficiently true to accomplish His purpose of revealing His requirement for salvation to humanity.

Using 1John 5:7-8 as an example, verse 6 indicates that "the Spirit, the water and the blood" is the correct reading, don't you think? Although "the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit" are true enough and reading it that way won't corrupt anyone, right?

Do you have another problematic passage for us to consider?

 

[Beetow]

.
FAQ: What is the water mentioned in John 3:5?

REPLY: Well; it appears to me that this water is very peculiar and definitely not
intended for normal uses like bathing, washing, or irrigation, rather, it's a
supernatural water, and its intended use is as a beverage, so to speak.

● John 4:10 . . Jesus answered her: If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that
asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living
water.

Now obviously the water that Jesus offered the woman wasn't natural H2O. Had it
been, Jesus would not be asking the lady for a drink of hers because his slacks
one's thirst forever, viz: living water keeps its users hydrated nonstop.

● John 4:13-14 . . Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but
whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him
will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.

"living water" is apparently a figure of speech that speaks of special characteristics
relative to God's Holy Spirit.

● John 7:37-39 . . On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said
in a loud voice: If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink! Whoever
believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from
within him! By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later
to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet
been glorified.

Also:

● 1Cor 12:13 . . For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body-- whether Jews
or Greeks, slave or free --and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

And finally in last chapter of the last book of the Bible, the scope of the benefit is
extended so to make it available to the entire world.

● Rev 22:17 . .The Spirit and the bride say: Come! And let him who hears say:
Come! Whoever is thirsty, let him come; and whoever wishes, let him take the free
gift of the water of life.

Now regardless of how someone might interpret the living water and/or how they
might feel about it; there are at least five things we know for sure.

1) It's supernatural

2) It sustains eternal life.

3) Folks need only to imbibe it once.

4) It's free of charge with no strings attached.

5) The offer requires a response.

So: I suggest finding a quiet place. Cover you face with your hands: it will give you
a sense of connection, and In your own words-- out loud or under your breath --tell
God you would like to have the living water that His son advertises in the new
testament.
_

 

[netchaplain]

Well, first please explain why you think

Well, what you are proving is that extant versions of the Bible are the result of a complicated history comparable to making sausage, and we cannot know which version is correct, so we must have faith that God ensured they all are sufficiently true to accomplish His purpose of revealing His requirement for salvation to humanity.

Using 1John 5:7-8 as an example, verse 6 indicates that "the Spirit, the water and the blood" is the correct reading, don't you think? Although "the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit" are true enough and reading it that way won't corrupt anyone, right?

Do you have another problematic passage for us to consider?

I sure do appreciate your replies, but I think we do not need to progress with the issue of false translations, and thanks for your concern. God bless!

 

[netchaplain]

.
FAQ: What is the water mentioned in John 3:5?

Just thought I'd share this

John Gill- "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit:" by "water," is not meant material water, or baptismal water; for water baptism is never expressed by water only, without some additional word, which shows, that the ordinance of water baptism is intended: nor has water baptism any regenerating influence in it; a person may be baptized, as Simon Magus was (Act 8:9, 13, 18, 24), and yet not born again; and it is so far from having any such virtue, that a person ought to be born again, before he is admitted to that ordinance: and though submission to it is necessary, in order to a person's entrance into a Gospel church state.

"Yet it is not necessary to the kingdom of heaven, or to eternal life and salvation: such a mistaken sense of this text, seems to have given the first birth and rise to infant baptism in the African churches; who taking the words in this bad sense, concluded their children must be baptized, or they could not be saved; whereas by "water" is meant, in a figurative and metaphorical sense, the grace of God, as it is elsewhere; see Ezekiel 36:25. Which is the moving cause of this new birth, and according to which God begets men again to a lively hope, and that by which it is effected; for it is by the grace of God, and not by the power of man's free will, that any are regenerated, or made new creatures."

The thief of the Cross went to heaven without water baptism!

 

[Groovy]

I sure do appreciate your replies, but I think we do not need to progress with the issue of false translations, and thanks for your concern. God bless!

Probably not, but I think a lot of discrepancies are minor and there is no point in making a mountain out of molehills, so all reputable translations are just fine: put 'em in the tank and they'll get you where you need to go.
Hasta la vista!

 

[Groovy]

I sure do appreciate your replies, but I think we do not need to progress with the issue of false translations, and thanks for your concern. God bless!

Okay, but I just looked at 2 Samuel 21:19, and again the NIV notes the alternate reading, so as long as translations do that I think calling them corrupt or false overstates the "issue". Let us not be too quick to judge the spirituality of those who worked hard to give us the best Bible they could, especially because it does not matter if every jot and tittle is exactly correct. Sausage is good! (BTW, I was a Chap too :^)

 

[Corn Pop]

Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.

Jesus saying through him who was baptised in the law given to Moses and was raised by the Spirit of God as sinless and worthy does one enter the Kingdom of God. Through Christ is the baptism of water and spirit. Even as the thief on the cross a hopeless sinner with the death sentence with nothing left to lose put there belief and trust in Christ and said remember me when you come into your kingdom and Christ credited him with that.

 

[Corn Pop]

Yeshua Hamashia, the Christ, born a Jew Son of Israel from the house of Judah bapised under the law given to Moses who walked sinless as the word of God made flesh who was put to death and was raised back to life by the Spirit of God because death had no hold on him that through the Fathers work alone through his Son the Christ does one enter the Kingdom of God.

And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide Himself a lamb for a burnt offering.” So they went both of them together.

 

[netchaplain]

(BTW, I was a Chap too :^)

Military or civilian?

 

[Beetow]

The thief of the Cross went to heaven without water baptism!

Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:15-6 didn't become standing orders until after the
Lord's crucified dead body was restored to life.
_

 

[donadams]

Dr. Kenneth Wuest stated that “the Greek word for ‘baptism’ speaks of the introduction or placing of a person or thing into a new environment or into union with something else, so as to alter its condition or its relationship to its previous environment or condition.”

When we believed, the Holy Spirit baptized us into the Lord Jesus. “By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.” “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (though the “old man” yet indwells believers, they are new and separated from it - Ro 8:9; 1Co 12:13; 2Co 5:17—NC).

By this spiritual act of baptism, the Spirit places us in union with the Lord Jesus. We were taken out of our old environment and position in the first Adam, and positioned in the new environment of the Last Adam. By that means our position is changed from that of a lost sinner with a depraved nature to that of a righteous saint with the divine nature [not that this divine nature makes us divine, we are only “partakers” and not possessors: “not essentially, nor of the essence of God, this is impossible, for the nature, perfections, and glory of God are incommunicable to creatures - John Gill - 2Pe 1:4—NC). Our relationship to the Law is changed from that of a guilty sinner to that of a justified saint.

This spiritual baptism occurs once, at the new birth, and is forever (most important spiritual growth doctrine from which all growth doctrines derive—NC). The act of water baptism is meant to be our practical public testimony to, and illustrative of our spiritual baptism into the risen Lord Jesus Christ.

Positionally, judicially, each believer was positioned in, identified with the Lord Jesus on the Cross. From that point on, in that judicial oneness, what happened to Him happened to us. “I am crucified with Christ” (Gal 2:20). That crucifixion had to do with His and our death unto sin. “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (Rom 6:3)

As we are submerged in the waters of baptism we are testifying to the fact that the Spirit has baptized us into the Lord Jesus’ death unto sin. Our identification in His death includes a number of blessed factors:

a) In Christ we died to the penal consequences of sin. “For he who has died has been freed from sin” (Ro 6:7).

b) In Christ we died to the power and reign of sin. “Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin” (Ro 6:6).

c) In Christ we died to the world. “But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world” (Gal 6:14). Here, by the “world” is meant God is left out.

Hence, we are to “love not the world neither the things that are in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world” (1Jn 2:15, 16).

d) In Christ we died to the self-centered life. “He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again” (2Co5:15).

e) In Christ the believer died to the claims of the Law, as well as the principle of law in general (the principle of law is “he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons” - Col 3:25—NC). “Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the Law by the Body of Christ.” Our death with the Lord Jesus, as symbolized in our water baptism, has satisfied the demand of the Law. “For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness to everyone that believeth.” “For I through the Law am dead to the Law, that I might live unto God” (Ro 10:4; Gal 2:19).

f) In Christ we died to the dominion of Satan. “Inasmuch then as the children have partaken of flesh and blood, He Himself likewise shared in the same, that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage (Heb 2:14, 15).

I. Our water baptism pictures our burial with the Lord Jesus in His death unto sin. “Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death” (Rom 6:4). As we allow ourselves to be submerged beneath the surface of the baptismal waters, we are enables to appreciate what our Lord passed through in order to save us both from the penalty of our sins, and the power of our sin (“the power of sin is the Law” - 1Co 15:56—NC). We are henceforth better able to understand and comply with His statement to us, “Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin” (saints are not dead to sin by reckoning, but reckon because they are dead to sin – Ro 6:11—NC).

Now we can know something more of His bitter anguish and cry on our behalf: “The waters are come in unto my soul. I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me. Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none. They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.” Again He cried out, “Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and Thou hast afflicted me with all Thy waves” (Psa 69:1, 2, 20, 21; 88:6, 7).

II. Our Lord Jesus was not only delivered for our transgressions, but He was “raised again for our justification” (Rom 4:25). When we were brought up out of the waters of baptism we illustrated our resurrection from the dead, in Him. “That like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of His death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection” (Ro 6:4, 5).

III. Hence our baptism not only consists of immersion in water, submersion under water, but emergence from the water to complete the picture of our spiritual baptism in union with the Lord Jesus. As He arose from the dead, to live in the power of an endless life, so we are to reckon ourselves “alive unto God in Christ Jesus our Lord” (again, reckoning doesn’t establish what has already been established, but depends on it (Ro 6:11).

In this new position of life from the dead, the Word says to us, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you” (Ro 6:12, 13, 14)


—Miles J Stanford (1914-1999)




MJS daily devotion for July 28

“No true believer expects the Law to give life, yet many expect it to govern life. Too few realize that their death on the Cross separated them from the entire principle of law, and that their resurrection united them to the Lord Jesus,” “full of grace and truth” (John 1:14). —MJS

“All of the Lord’s commands to me are according to the new nature I already have. He is my life, and all His words are the expression of that life. Therefore when His words are given to me, they only give me the authority to do what my new nature likes to do. ‘A new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in Him and in you” (1 John 2:8). –John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)

“Does our Father mock us by bidding us do what He knows we are unable to do? No! He gives commands we cannot perform in our strength that we may know what we ought to request from Him.”

“Legalism is an effort to shape oneself to given laws or rules. Seeking to urge oneself into conformity to law, the old man is before the eye, and satisfaction is felt according as there is conformity to a given standard.

“The moment legality is sanctioned, it must be with reference to that which needs to be made subject. This is not Christian, because as believers we are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, against which there is no law.” —MJS

None But The Hungry Heart

please explain why Jesus and the bible says it the apostolic church that baptizes us?

mt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (not just the spirit but God father sin and spirit)

Jn 3:5 cannot enter the kingdom
2 Pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

thks

 

[netchaplain]

please explain why Jesus and the bible says it the apostolic church that baptizes us?

mt 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (not just the spirit but God father son and spirit)

Jn 3:5 cannot enter the kingdom
2 Pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

thks

Hi Don, and thanks for the reply! I believe all churches that are Christian are Apostolic, because all of the present day teachings and doctrines relates to believers from the Apostles, for there are no more Apostles (there were only 12). Thus God works through present Preachers and Teachers.

It's also informative to realize that there is no power involved with water baptism, but it's a command of
Christ to be baptized so we can sow to others we are not ashamed of and believe in the Lord Jesus.

 

[donadams]

Hi Don, and thanks for the reply! I believe all churches that are Christian are Apostolic, because all of the present day teachings and doctrines relates to believers from the Apostles, for there are no more Apostles (there were only 12). Thus God works through present Preachers and Teachers.

It's also informative to realize that there is no power involved with water baptism, but it's a command of
Christ to be baptized so we can sow to others we are not ashamed of and believe in the Lord Jesus.

then please explain mat 28:19-20 and acts 1:8
these require Christ in union with His one (matt 16:18 Jn 10:16) true apostolic church

the christian sacrament of baptism washes away all sin!

ez 36:25-27
acts 22:16
1 pet 3:21

thks

 

[for_his_glory]

the christian sacrament of baptism washes away all sin!

Does actual water wash away our sins, or is it the blood of Jesus through His sacrifice that washes away our sin?

 

[netchaplain]

then please explain mat 28:19-20 and acts 1:8
these require Christ in union with His one (matt 16:18 Jn 10:16) true apostolic church

the christian sacrament of baptism washes away all sin!
seated
ez 36:25-27
acts 22:16
1 pet 3:21

thks

There must be baptizing, for it is one of Christ's "commands" (Mat 28:20). The Lord Jesus never baptized anyone because He wanted the Christians to maintain this ministry. After the Apostles were gone it was left up to the Christians to baptize; for all Christians are a "holy priesthood" of the Lord Jesus (1Pe 2:5). Believers are saved first, then baptized to symbolize (not actualize) burial, resurrection and ascension; our present position is that God "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph 2:6). We're as good a there!

 

[Bruce Leiter]

Matt 28:19 and Mark 16:15-6 didn't become standing orders until after the
Lord's crucified dead body was restored to life.
_

And yet, Beetow, Jesus sends out the 12 disciples on one occasion to call people to believe the Good News, just as he sends out 72 at another time. His mission and that of the twelve is to preach about God's kingdom, mainly but not always, to the Jews.

Then, after his resurrection, he calls his followers, including us, to share the gospel wherever he sends us.

Luk 9:1 And he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases,
Luk 9:2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal.

Luk 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them on ahead of him, two by two, into every town and place where he himself was about to go.
Luk 10:2 And he said to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few. Therefore pray earnestly to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into his harvest.
Luk 10:3 Go your way; behold, I am sending you out as lambs in the midst of wolves."