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Seeing Islam as 'Evil' Faith, Evangelicals Seek Converts

In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?

  • YES - part of the Gospel is revealing evil and sin.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Both - highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesu

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Neither - there are other options that you have not described.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    9
G

Gary

Guest
Seeing Islam as 'Evil' Faith, Evangelicals Seek Converts

The New York Times, May 27, 2003
http://www.nytimes.com/
By LAURIE GOODSTEIN

GROVE CITY, Ohio — On a recent Saturday in a church fellowship hall here, evangelical Christians from several states gathered for an all-day seminar on how to woo Muslims away from Islam.

The teacher urged a kindly approach: always show Muslims love, charity and hospitality, he said, and carry copies of the New Testament to give as gifts. The students, scribbling notes, included two pastors, a school secretary and college students who said they hoped to convert Muslims in the United States, or on mission trips abroad.

But although the teacher, an evangelical preacher from Beirut, stressed the need to avoid offending Muslims, he projected a snappy PowerPoint presentation showing passages from the Koran that he said proved Islam was regressive, fraudulent and violent.

"Here in the Koran, it says slay them, slay the infidels!" said the teacher, who said he did not want to be identified because being a missionary to Muslims put his life at risk. "In the Bible there are no words from Jesus saying we should kill innocent people."

At the grass roots of evangelical Christianity, many are now absorbing the antipathy for Islam that emerged last year with the incendiary comments of ministers. The sharp language, from religious leaders like Franklin Graham, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Jerry Vines, the former president of the Southern Baptist Convention, has drawn rebukes from Muslims and Christian groups alike. Mr. Graham called Islam "a very evil and wicked religion, and Mr. Vines called Muhammad, Islam's founder and prophet, a "demon-possessed pedophile."

In evangelical churches and seminaries across the country, lectures and books criticizing Islam and promoting strategies for Muslim conversions are gaining currency. More than a dozen recently published critiques of Islam are now available in Christian bookstores.

Arab International Ministry, the Indianapolis group that led the crash course on Islam here, claims to have trained 4,500 American Christians to proselytize Muslims in the last six years, many of those since the 2001 terrorist attacks.

The oratorical tone of these authors and lecturers varies, but they share the basic presumption that the world's two largest religions are headed for a confrontation, with Christianity representing what is good, true and peaceful, and Islam what is evil, false and violent.

The criticism is coming predominantly from evangelicals, who belong to many independent churches and Christian denominations, including the Southern Baptist Convention.

Evangelicals have always believed that all other religions are wrong, but what is notable now is the vituperation.

"The Koran's good verses are like the food an assassin adds to poison to disguise a deadly taste," writes Don Richardson, a well-known missionary who worked in Muslim countries, in "Secrets of the Koran" (Regal Books, 2003). "Better to find the same food, sans poison, in the Bible." This month, he is scheduled to speak on Islam at churches in five American cities.

Most of the authors and teachers preach a corollary of the Christian dictum to "love the sinner and hate the sin." They assert that while the vast majority of Muslims are not evil, they have been deceived by a diabolical religion based on a flawed scripture that can never bring them salvation.

Akbar Ahmed, chairman of the Islamic studies department at American University, said he grew up attending Catholic and Protestant missionary schools in Pakistan, but never heard a negative word about Islam from the missionaries. Now, he said, the new hostility to Islam and, in particular, the insults to the prophet Muhammad have outraged the Muslim world.

"The whole range of Muslims, from orthodox to liberal secularists, are all lined up against these attacks coming from the American evangelists," said Mr. Ahmed, the author of a new book "Islam Under Siege: Living Dangerously in a Post-Honor World" (Polity Press). "Unwittingly, these evangelists have unleashed a consolidation of sentiments for Islam. Even the most moderate Muslims have been upset by this."

The push for conversions may backfire for the evangelists, he said, since Muslims who may have been open to the missionaries' presence feel their honor has been insulted.

In interviews, evangelical authors and lecturers said their work did not denigrate Islam as much as share the truth about Christianity.

Ergun M. Caner, raised a Muslim by his Turkish family, converted to Christianity as a teenager and wrote, with his brother Emir, "Unveiling Islam: An Insider Look at Muslim Life and Beliefs" (Kregel Publications), which has sold more than 100,000 copies.

"I am more interested in apologetics than polemics," said Mr. Caner, now a professor of theology and church history at The Criswell College. "Apologetics is defending your faith, and polemics is critiquing others. A Muslim has the right to to worship Allah, and I have a right to stand in front of that mosque and tell them that Jesus saves. That's the hope for Iraq, the hope for Afghanistan."

Evangelical scholars and leaders cite several reasons for their quickening interest in Islam: the American defeat of a major Muslim nation, Iraq, which may open it to Christian missionaries, while other Muslim nations remain closed; the 2001 terrorist attacks, which led many Americans to see Islam as a global threat; the greater numbers and visibility of Muslims in the United States, and the demise of Communism, once public enemy No. 1 for many evangelical organizations.

"Evangelicals have substituted Islam for the Soviet Union," said the Rev. Richard Cizik, vice president for governmental affairs of the National Association of Evangelicals, which represents 43,000 congregations. "The Muslims have become the modern-day equivalent of the Evil Empire."

The National Association of Evangelicals called on Christian leaders this month to temper their anti-Islam oratory, saying it had been unhelpful to interfaith relations, and dangerous to Christians spreading the gospel to Muslims. While some evangelical leaders welcomed the criticism, others bristled and said that it was not the Christians but the Muslims who must stop the hate-speech.

Historians note that enmity between Christianity and Islam dates as far back as the Crusades, the fall of Byzantium and the reconquest of Spain.

"Keep in mind that Islam is the only religious tradition that has ever threatened the existence of Christianity," said Charles Kimball, chairman of the religion department at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., and author of the book "When Religion Becomes Evil" (Harper San Francisco, 2002). "That's deeply woven into our subconscious, into Western literature and culture, and so this image of an Islamic threat taps into a notion that's there already."

The conservative evangelical approach to Islam is in stark contrast with the "interfaith understanding" approach of many Orthodox, Roman Catholic and mainline Protestant churches like the Methodists, Episcopalians and Lutherans. Since 9/11, local churches in these denominations began inviting Muslims to explain their faith at a flurry of interfaith events and dialogue sessions.

"God calls all of us to have an open mind and an open heart," said the Rev. Robert Edgar, general secretary of the National Council of Churches, which represents many Protestant and Orthodox denominations. "And many of the people who are part of the National Council of Churches believe that if judgment is to be made it needs to be made by God and not by those of us who have divided ourselves up around a particular ideology."

These churches acknowledge theological differences between Christianity and Islam, but stress the common roots and essential compatibility. They teach that Muslims are monotheists, "Allah" is simply Arabic for God, and both faiths share Abraham as patriarch.

But for many of the evangelical experts on Islam, these notions are simplistic whitewash to paint over a real theological divide.

At the daylong seminar in the fellowship hall of Southwest Grace Brethren Church, just outside Columbus, the teacher drew on his own life experience as evidence of Islam's evils. While President Bush and others have depicted Islam as a peaceful religion that has been "hijacked" by extremists, the teacher said he knew better than to believe that.

He spoke of a childhood friend in Beirut who joined the Hezbollah terrorist network and showed off his victims' severed ears. Another friend, he said, was threatened with death by his father when he converted to Christianity. (The teacher did not mention the Phalangist Christian militias that helped stoke Lebanon's civil war.)

He did not tell the class who he was, and his mysteriousness reinforced his message that Christian missionaries face danger in Muslim nations. At least six have been killed since Sept. 11, 2001.

"You can tell me Islam is peaceful, but I've done my homework," he said, reeling off a list of Koranic citations. "From the beginning of Islam, the sword brought results faster than words."

Some of what he taught would be accepted by most theologians: Muslims reject the Christian concept of a Trinitarian God — the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. Muslims respect Jesus as a prophet, but do not accept the Christian belief that he is the son of God.

But he intermingled accepted facts with negative accounts of Islamic teaching, history and traditions. The pilgrimage to Mecca, he said, is a dangerous event at which people are killed every year. Communal prayers each Friday are "a day of rage," he said.

And Muslims even pray differently than Christians, he said. "Muslims pray to get points," he said, "not to communicate with God." Group prayer on Fridays is for "extra points," he said.

Pat McEvoy, a secretary at a high school in Columbus, said she had known very little about Islam before the seminar. Her school has an influx of students from Somalia, and as she walked through the hallways she regarded these immigrants as "a virtual mission field."

She said she felt an obligation to save them from an eternity in Hell.

"If I had the answer for cancer, what sort of a human would I be not to share it?" Ms. McEvoy said.

The teacher concluded by giving the students tips on what to do and not to do to reach Muslims: Don't approach them in groups. Don't bring them to your church, because they will misunderstand the singing and clapping as a party. Do invite them home for a meal. Do bring them chocolate chip cookies. Do talk about how, in order to get saved, they must accept Jesus.

"Our job," he said, "is not to make the Muslim a Christian. Our job is to show them the love of Christ."
 
Hello & Welcome Gary, My brother In Christ!!! I thought I would start your poll. I voted both and I'll tell you why, I believe we should always follow Jesus' examples. In this matter ---
John 8
1: Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2: And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3: And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4: They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5: Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6: This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8: And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9: And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus told her "go, and sin no more". He did NOT deny her sin.

To deny Jesus the Son of God as the Quran does, how can salvation be obtain if the truth is not told??? The Bible tells us what sin is, what constitutes false prophets/anti-christs, and yes by their fruits we shall know them.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. This is clear, that name is Jesus NOT allah or muhammad!!!

Your Sister In Christ!!! :B-fly:
Justice
 
Well Jesus told us to preach the gospel to everyone, so i geuss that includes muslems.

I happen to know a few missoinaries to muslem nations, they rsik their very life to bring the gopel to them. And those who convert are at even a grater risk.

Funny how the papers will highlight :strong language" used by christnas, but any time we take a stand thy get worked up over it.

And funny to they try tolink us to them in Abraham, and claim that allah is just a nother word for God, and he is the same guy. This only shows how little they understand about the matter.

One sent his Son to die for our sins, the other had not Son. If we were talking about two men and one had a son and the other did not, we would not think they were the same, hmmmm.

At any rate they are lost souls and we are obligated when ever possible to preachthe good news of JEsus to lost souls, if we refuse we are disobeying the Lord himself.

Oh two things, the crusades began becuase the muslems started attacking christian kingdoms, things went bad but it began as a defence, that seems to be left out all the time.

And there are christians in muslem nations this very day being enslvaed, tourchered and murdered. Yet no one says a thing about that in the media, but make a fuss over the christian who dared to speak against things like that.

It is a sad statement of our times to be sure.

I think perhaps any good researcehr should inidate news papers with facts on Christian persecution around the world untill it makes to the press, if you are that guy get to work please.

Henry
 
Justice said:
Hello & Welcome Gary, My brother In Christ!!! I thought I would start your poll. I voted both and I'll tell you why, I believe we should always follow Jesus' examples. In this matter ---
John 8
1: Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2: And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3: And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4: They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5: Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6: This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8: And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9: And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus told her "go, and sin no more". He did NOT deny her sin.

To deny Jesus the Son of God as the Quran does, how can salvation be obtain if the truth is not told??? The Bible tells us what sin is, what constitutes false prophets/anti-christs, and yes by their fruits we shall know them.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. This is clear, that name is Jesus NOT allah or muhammad!!!

Your Sister In Christ!!! :B-fly:
Justice
Is there, like, a point somewhere in there that actually pertains to this thread? (assuming you undestand the distinction between a point and a generalization)
 
Henry said:
Well Jesus told us to preach the gospel to everyone, so i geuss that includes muslems.

I happen to know a few missoinaries to muslem nations, they rsik their very life to bring the gopel to them. And those who convert are at even a grater risk.

Funny how the papers will highlight :strong language" used by christnas, but any time we take a stand thy get worked up over it.

And funny to they try tolink us to them in Abraham, and claim that allah is just a nother word for God, and he is the same guy. This only shows how little they understand about the matter.

One sent his Son to die for our sins, the other had not Son. If we were talking about two men and one had a son and the other did not, we would not think they were the same, hmmmm.

At any rate they are lost souls and we are obligated when ever possible to preachthe good news of JEsus to lost souls, if we refuse we are disobeying the Lord himself.

Oh two things, the crusades began becuase the muslems started attacking christian kingdoms, things went bad but it began as a defence, that seems to be left out all the time.

And there are christians in muslem nations this very day being enslvaed, tourchered and murdered. Yet no one says a thing about that in the media, but make a fuss over the christian who dared to speak against things like that.

It is a sad statement of our times to be sure.

I think perhaps any good researcehr should inidate news papers with facts on Christian persecution around the world untill it makes to the press, if you are that guy get to work please.

Henry
Isn't the point of this thread, not whether Islam is right or wrong, but is attacking Islam/Mohamend, the best way to reach Moslems?
 
Jack Lewis said:
Justice said:
Hello & Welcome Gary, My brother In Christ!!! I thought I would start your poll. I voted both and I'll tell you why, I believe we should always follow Jesus' examples. In this matter ---
John 8
1: Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2: And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3: And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4: They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5: Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6: This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8: And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9: And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus told her "go, and sin no more". He did NOT deny her sin.

To deny Jesus the Son of God as the Quran does, how can salvation be obtain if the truth is not told??? The Bible tells us what sin is, what constitutes false prophets/anti-christs, and yes by their fruits we shall know them.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. This is clear, that name is Jesus NOT allah or muhammad!!!

Your Sister In Christ!!! :B-fly:
Justice
Is there, like, a point somewhere in there that actually pertains to this thread? (assuming you undestand the distinction between a point and a generalization)

Jack, do you have a comprehension problem or is it a matter of you being the ONLY one who's allowed to attack others while debating??? Talk about an "ad hominem" argument!!!

This thread also contains a poll --- I voted Both which states "highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ."

Like, duh see if you can figure out my post by the way I voted:

Getting back to the thread --- Did you vote or was your pleasure based upon attacking others??? Was there a point in your post to Henry and myself or is this your general behavior???

Love In Christ
Justice
 
Hi Justice

Hi Justice!

Thank you for your kind words.

I understand your post. And my view is the same. It seems to be "both". The organisation I work with in its outreach to Muslims uses all three methods. I am starting to believe that it depends on the situation.

Love again to you, in Christ.
Gary
 
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Justice said:
Hello & Welcome Gary, My brother In Christ!!! I thought I would start your poll. I voted both and I'll tell you why, I believe we should always follow Jesus' examples. In this matter ---
John 8
1: Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.
2: And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.
3: And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,
4: They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5: Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6: This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7: So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
8: And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
9: And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
10: When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11: She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Jesus told her "go, and sin no more". He did NOT deny her sin.

To deny Jesus the Son of God as the Quran does, how can salvation be obtain if the truth is not told??? The Bible tells us what sin is, what constitutes false prophets/anti-christs, and yes by their fruits we shall know them.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. This is clear, that name is Jesus NOT allah or muhammad!!!

Your Sister In Christ!!! :B-fly:
Justice
Is there, like, a point somewhere in there that actually pertains to this thread? (assuming you undestand the distinction between a point and a generalization)

Jack, do you have a comprehension problem or is it a matter of you being the ONLY one who's allowed to attack others while debating??? Talk about an "ad hominem" argument!!!

This thread also contains a poll --- I voted Both which states "highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ."

Like, duh see if you can figure out my post by the way I voted:

Getting back to the thread --- Did you vote or was your pleasure based upon attacking others??? Was there a point in your post to Henry and myself or is this your general behavior???

Love In Christ
Justice
The poll question asked: In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?

Your response ignored that and went off on a tangent.

No, I didn't respond to the poll, since it was silly to begin with. It was an attempt by Gary_Bee to get me to stop exposing his flawed techniques on another thread. Now I'm doing it on two threads.

You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.
 
Justice said:
Jack, do you have a comprehension problem or is it a matter of you being the ONLY one who's allowed to attack others while debating??? Talk about an "ad hominem" argument!!!

This thread also contains a poll --- I voted Both which states "highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ."

Like, duh see if you can figure out my post by the way I voted:

Getting back to the thread --- Did you vote or was your pleasure based upon attacking others??? Was there a point in your post to Henry and myself or is this your general behavior???

Love In Christ
Justice

Jack Lewis said:
The poll question asked: In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?

Your response ignored that and went off on a tangent.

No, I didn't respond to the poll, since it was silly to begin with. It was an attempt by Gary_Bee to get me to stop exposing his flawed techniques on another thread. Now I'm doing it on two threads.

You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

Jack, I could make the same claim against you as far as not taking the poll. This is silly, I have the right to explain how I voted without being attacked by you. Perhaps you need to take your own advise.

Gary has been dealing with Muslims for a long time in a Christian manner. He deals with them in truth. Everything he says about the Quran and Muhammad is true.

If you find what he says offensive, than I suppose you can say the truth hurts. Did you not read his response well??? I'll post it here for you ---

Gary_Bee said:
God calls and converts

I have converted no Muslims. God does it all. I highlight the differences between, especially, Jesus and Muhammad.

The Holy Spirit convicts, God calls and converts. Jesus is the way, the truth, the life that Muslim converts to Christianity embrace.

We do not "count" converts; we love and support them.

I am involved in two organisations which reach out to Muslims. One is a inter-denominational outreach from several churches. We have many converts and many Muslim seekers. We often support the victimized convert who now lives a very difficult and pressurized life amongst his/her Muslim family and community.

Secondly, in a HIV/AIDS support outreach, we have several Muslims who receive help. We show the love of Christ by actions and words. They have been rejected by family - we show love.

Given his response in blue, how can you even imply that the truth does not convict??? In my response see verse 9:

Love In Christ
Justice

Hi Gary, I am so glad that you decided to come here. My spirit bares witness with yours. It makes me aware of your concern loving spirit in truth while dealing with Muslims.

You'll do good no matter what the situation is!!!

Perhaps we should ask how many Muslim coverts have been won for Jesus using Jack as his instrument???

Love Always In Christ :angel:
Justice
 
Justice said:
Justice said:
Jack, do you have a comprehension problem or is it a matter of you being the ONLY one who's allowed to attack others while debating??? Talk about an "ad hominem" argument!!!

This thread also contains a poll --- I voted Both which states "highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ."

Like, duh see if you can figure out my post by the way I voted:

Getting back to the thread --- Did you vote or was your pleasure based upon attacking others??? Was there a point in your post to Henry and myself or is this your general behavior???

Love In Christ
Justice

Jack Lewis said:
The poll question asked: In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?

Your response ignored that and went off on a tangent.

No, I didn't respond to the poll, since it was silly to begin with. It was an attempt by Gary_Bee to get me to stop exposing his flawed techniques on another thread. Now I'm doing it on two threads.

You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

Jack, I could make the same claim against you as far as not taking the poll. This is silly, I have the right to explain how I voted without being attacked by you. Perhaps you need to take your own advise.
Your response had nothign to do with the poll. Reread it.

Justice said:
Gary has been dealing with Muslims for a long time in a Christian manner. He deals with them in truth. Everything he says about the Quran and Muhammad is true.
Seems to me Gary claims the "organization" he's "with" deals with Moslems, but I've known lots and lots of Moslems and not one of them I know would listen to anyone spouting stuff like that to them. So I have a hard time beleiving any Moslems are actually turning the Christi based on such unChristlike tactics.

Justice said:
If you find what he says offensive, than I suppose you can say the truth hurts. Did you not read his response well??? I'll post it here for you ---
I find what he says ludicrous. You can't reach Moslems that way.
 
Jack Lewis said:
You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

Jack, please show us the sura/verse in the quran which COMMANDS "them" to study the Bible.

Jack Lewis said:
Your response had nothign to do with the poll. Reread it.

In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?
YES - part of the Gospel is revealing evil and sin.
20% [ 2 ]
NO - only talk about and show the love of Christ.
20% [ 2 ]
Both - highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ.
60% [ 6 ]
Neither - there are other options that you have not described.
0% [ 0 ]

My post shows the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ under the "BOTH" options in the poll. It also shows that Jesus did not deny the adulters sin, when he said "Go, and sin no more". I'm starting to worry about you Jack because I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you don't get it this time I'll let you consider yourself the winner of this silliness.


Justice said:
Gary has been dealing with Muslims for a long time in a Christian manner. He deals with them in truth. Everything he says about the Quran and Muhammad is true.
Jack Lewis said:
Seems to me Gary claims the "organization" he's "with" deals with Moslems, but I've known lots and lots of Moslems and not one of them I know would listen to anyone spouting stuff like that to them. So I have a hard time beleiving any Moslems are actually turning the Christi based on such unChristlike tactics.

His post states and I quote "WE HAVE MANY CONVERTS and many Muslims seekers".

Jack Lewis said:
I find what he says ludicrous. You can't reach Moslems that way.

Ludicrous???

Judging Others
(All scriptures are NIV unless otherwise noted.)

Is it OK for Christians to judge the teaching of other believers? This study will show what scripture says about judging.

I get a lot of negative comments from those who believe the teachings of false teachers telling me "thou shalt not judge," that I should take my concerns to the person in question "privately first," and I am to "touch not God's anointed" and that scripture says in the last days "your son's and daughters shall prophesy." These folks wrongly assume that we are to blindly accept the teachings of anyone who claims to be a "prophet" and especially those of the "anointed" class, and anyone who prophesies must certainly be a child of God. Right?

Is this really what scripture says, or have these folks bought into the Love Gospel permeating Christiandom today (forsaking doctrine for the sake of unity)? They often take the scripture in Matt. 7:1-5 and Romans 2:1-3 (which are cautioning us about being hypocrites) and apply it to our judging the teachings of others.

Let's see what scripture really says about judging the teaching of others:

WE ARE COMMANDED TO REBUKE AND CORRECT:

" All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, REBUKING, correcting and training in righteousness.. . . I give you this charge [COMMAND]: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage­with great patience and careful instruction" (2 Tim. 3:16-4:2.)

"In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I GIVE YOU THIS CHARGE: Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; CORRECT, REBUKE and encourage­with great patience and careful instruction. For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths. But you, keep your head in all situations, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, discharge all the dutires of your ministry" (2 Tim. 4:1).
"He [elder/overseer] must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and REFUTE those who oppose it" (Titus 1:9).

"These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and REBUKE with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you" (Titus 2:15).

WE ARE TO AVOID THOSE TEACHING FALSE DOCTRINE:

" Now I beseech you, brethren, mark THEM which cause divisions and offences CONTRARY TO DOCTRINE which ye have learned; and avoid THEM " (Rom. 16:17).

" Now we COMMAND you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.15 Yet count him not as an enemy, but ADMONISH him as a brother " (2 Thess. 3:6).

" Warn a divisive person [HERETIC] once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him [REJECT]. You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned" (Titus 3:10)

" BE ON YOUR GUARD against the yeast [teachings leading to a works salvation] of the Pharisees and Sadducees" (Matt. 16: 6,12).


THOSE WHO TEACH A FALSE GOSPEL ARE ALREADY CONDEMNED:

" But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach A GOSPEL OTHER THAN THE ONE WE PREACHED TO YOU, let him be eternally CONDEMNED! As we have already said, so no I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!" (Gal. 1:8).

WE ARE TO CAST THE WICKED OUT OF THE CHURCH:

"When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, HAND THIS MAN OVER TO SATAN, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed, and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord" (1 Cor. 5:4,5).

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. 'EXPEL the wicked man from among you.'" (1 Cor 5:12, 13).

We CAN'T MIX WORKS AND GRACE:

"So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then is it no longer by works: if it were, grace would no longer be grace " (Rom. 11:5,6).

WE ARE TO JUDGE THOSE INSIDE THE CHURCH:

"What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? [this is a rhetorical question requiring a "yes" answer] God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you.'" (1 Cor 5:12, 13).

We ARE TO REBUKE SINNERS PUBLICLY:

"Those who sin are to be rebuked publicly, so that the others may take warning. I charge [COMMAND] you, in the signt of God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels, to keep these instructions without partiality, and do nothing out of favoritism" (1 Tim. 5:20-22).

JESUS REBUKED HIS OWN DISCIPLES:

"But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he REBUKED PETER. 'Get behind me, Satan!' He said. 'You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." (Mark 8:33).

"Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he REBUKED them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen " (Mark 16:14).

JESUS REBUKED FALSE TEACHERS:

". . . .Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites . . . . you blind guides . . . . you whitewashed tombs . . . . you snakes, you brood of vipers . . . .," etc., etc.

JESUS REBUKED THE COMMON FOLK:

"When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. So he made a WHIP out of cords and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and OVERTURNED their tables. To those who sold doves he said, 'Get these out of here! HOW DARE YOU turn my Father's house into a Market!" (John 2:13-17).

JESUS REBUKED THOSE WHO FOLLOW FALSE PROPHETS:

"Nevertheless, [in spite of your deeds, love, faith, service and perseverance] I have this against you: [Church of Thyatira] You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants in sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. So I will cast her on a bed of suffereing, and I WILL MAKE THOSE WHO COMMIT ADULTERY WITH HER suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I WILLl REPAY EACH OF YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR DEEDS" (Rev 2:20-23).

WE ARE TO CONTEND/STRUGGLE FOR THE FAITH:

"Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to CONTENT [struggle for earnestly] for the faith that was ONCE FOR ALL entrusted to the saints. For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord " (Jude 1:3).

HOWEVER, YOUR REASON FOR HOPE MUST BE BASED ON TRUTH--SAVED BY FAITH, NOT WORKS:

"But in your hearts set apart Christ as LORD [not man]. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have " (1 Peter 3:15).

Following are links to scriptural studies on judging others:
Is It Right: To Judge, To Expose Error, & To Call Names? Gives scriptural proof that we are to judge the teachings of others, to expose them as false teachers and name names.

Matthew 7:1-5 is often quoted to silence those who expose error in the Church. Greg Alston show how the refusal to judge (and discern) is eroding the foundations of the Church and defiling its very essence - Truth.

IS IT RIGHT: To Judge, To Expose Error, & To Call Names? By Pastor E.L. Bynum provides a plethora of scriptures admonishing believers to contend for the faith and shows how people (false prophets) take them out of context to try and prevent themselves from being admonished. He brings up several scriptures that indicate we are to separate from those who teach error and expose them publicly, just like Paul and John and Jesus himself did.

Is it Right to Judge? by Franklin C. Huling shows how scriptures are being misapplied to prevent believers from judging the teaching of false prophets.

Who are you to Say? by Gregory Koukl shows how those who accuse apologists of judging others falsely often ignore the real issue--standing on the Truth of Scripture--and intead focus on a personal attack of the one doing the scriptural mandated critique of false teachers.

Debra Bouey in her article Matthew 18: A Viable Contention Where Principles of the Gospel are Concerned? shows how Matt. 18 is taken out of context when people say we are to approach a brother privately, when he is teaching false doctrine, instead of publicly.

http://www.loriswebs.com/endtimeprophets/judge.html

Jack, that's pretty strong stuff. Maybe that will help answer your other post. Have you ever wondered why so many false religions/beliefs seem to be growing faster than Christianity??? Perhaps Christians aren't doing what Jesus would do or what the word says.

Love In Christ
Justice
 
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

Jack, please show us the sura/verse in the quran which COMMANDS "them" to study the Bible.
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Your response had nothign to do with the poll. Reread it.

In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?
YES - part of the Gospel is revealing evil and sin.
20% [ 2 ]
NO - only talk about and show the love of Christ.
20% [ 2 ]
Both - highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ.
60% [ 6 ]
Neither - there are other options that you have not described.
0% [ 0 ]

My post shows the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ under the "BOTH" options in the poll. It also shows that Jesus did not deny the adulters sin, when he said "Go, and sin no more". I'm starting to worry about you Jack because I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you don't get it this time I'll let you consider yourself the winner of this silliness.
A. The adulteress (not adulterer) was a Jew, not of a different religion than Jesus himself.
B. He didn't criticize her religious belief, He emphasized the obedience to the belief she supposedly was under, Judaism.
Justice said:
Justice said:
Gary has been dealing with Muslims for a long time in a Christian manner. He deals with them in truth. Everything he says about the Quran and Muhammad is true.
What I'm reading are some vhement post by some guy who doesn't know the first thing about reaching Moslems. Anyone can say they reach Moslems (something he's been careful to avoid saying, if you'll notice)
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Seems to me Gary claims the "organization" he's "with" deals with Moslems, but I've known lots and lots of Moslems and not one of them I know would listen to anyone spouting stuff like that to them. So I have a hard time beleiving any Moslems are actually turning the Christi based on such unChristlike tactics.

His post states and I quote "WE HAVE MANY CONVERTS and many Muslims seekers".
So anything anyone posts here is automatically true, or is it just him, and you?
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
I find what he says ludicrous. You can't reach Moslems that way.
Ludicrous???

Judging Others
(All scriptures are NIV unless otherwise noted.)
Why not use a real Bible?
Justice said:
Is it OK for Christians to judge the teaching of other believers? This study will show what scripture says about judging.
No, the verses you showed said nothing about proclaiming the Gospel. It's alright to teach Christians about the errors in other religions, but it's inapropriate, and just plain stupid, to do so as part of an outreach to people in that religion. Especially in such a antagonistic way.
 
Jack Lewis said:
Justice said:
[quote="Jack Lewis":bed54]
You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

Jack, please show us the sura/verse in the quran which COMMANDS "them" to study the Bible.
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
The sura's you offered are NOT commandments to study the Gospel.
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Your response had nothign to do with the poll. Reread it.

In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?
YES - part of the Gospel is revealing evil and sin.
20% [ 2 ]
NO - only talk about and show the love of Christ.
20% [ 2 ]
Both - highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ.
60% [ 6 ]
Neither - there are other options that you have not described.
0% [ 0 ]

My post shows the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ under the "BOTH" options in the poll. It also shows that Jesus did not deny the adulters sin, when he said "Go, and sin no more". I'm starting to worry about you Jack because I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you don't get it this time I'll let you consider yourself the winner of this silliness.
A. The adulteress (not adulterer) was a Jew, not of a different religion than Jesus himself.
I stand corrected, does that make you happy??? Even though adultery usally takes a male counter part but only the adulteress was in danger of being stoned and mentioned in Matt. 28.
B. He didn't criticize her religious belief, He emphasized the obedience to the belief she supposedly was under, Judaism.
There were many tensions between mainstream Judaism and Jesus-Judaism.
Justice said:
Justice said:
Gary has been dealing with Muslims for a long time in a Christian manner. He deals with them in truth. Everything he says about the Quran and Muhammad is true.
What I'm reading are some vhement post by some guy who doesn't know the first thing about reaching Moslems. Anyone can say they reach Moslems (something he's been careful to avoid saying, if you'll notice)
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Seems to me Gary claims the "organization" he's "with" deals with Moslems, but I've known lots and lots of Moslems and not one of them I know would listen to anyone spouting stuff like that to them. So I have a hard time beleiving any Moslems are actually turning the Christi based on such unChristlike tactics.


His post states and I quote "WE HAVE MANY CONVERTS and many Muslims seekers".
So anything anyone posts here is automatically true, or is it just him, and you?
That statement does not deserve an answer. It's NOT even a creditable counter just another form of bashing.
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
I find what he says ludicrous. You can't reach Moslems that way.
Ludicrous???

Judging Others
(All scriptures are NIV unless otherwise noted.)
Why not use a real Bible?
Justice said:
Is it OK for Christians to judge the teaching of other believers? This study will show what scripture says about judging.
No, the verses you showed said nothing about proclaiming the Gospel. It's alright to teach Christians about the errors in other religions, but it's inapropriate, and just plain stupid, to do so as part of an outreach to people in that religion. Especially in such a antagonistic way.

Tell that to Stephen {Acts 7}[/quote:bed54]

Love In Christ
Justice
 
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Justice said:
[quote="Jack Lewis":3a936]
You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

Jack, please show us the sura/verse in the quran which COMMANDS "them" to study the Bible.
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
The sura's you offered are NOT commandments to study the Gospel. [/quote:3a936]Riiiiight. Interesting that these are precisely the verses real missionaries to Moslem people use. These would be the missionaries that actually have lots of converts. These would be the verses that Moslems admit, command them to study the Bible.
[quote:3a936]
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Your response had nothign to do with the poll. Reread it.

In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?
YES - part of the Gospel is revealing evil and sin.
20% [ 2 ]
NO - only talk about and show the love of Christ.
20% [ 2 ]
Both - highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ.
60% [ 6 ]
Neither - there are other options that you have not described.
0% [ 0 ]

My post shows the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ under the "BOTH" options in the poll. It also shows that Jesus did not deny the adulters sin, when he said "Go, and sin no more". I'm starting to worry about you Jack because I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you don't get it this time I'll let you consider yourself the winner of this silliness.
A. The adulteress (not adulterer) was a Jew, not of a different religion than Jesus himself.
I stand corrected, does that make you happy??? Even though adultery usally takes a male counter part but only the adulteress was in danger of being stoned and mentioned in Matt. 28. [/quote:3a936]The point remains: This passage has nothing to do with ripping other religions as a part fo spreading the Gospel.
[quote:3a936]
B. He didn't criticize her religious belief, He emphasized the obedience to the belief she supposedly was under, Judaism.
There were many tensions between mainstream Judaism and Jesus-Judaism. [/quote:3a936]Huh? What does that have to do with topic? Besides, there was no "Jesus-Judaism" Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not practicing Judaism, not for not converting to some new form of Judaism.
[quote:3a936]
Justice said:
Justice said:
Gary has been dealing with Muslims for a long time in a Christian manner. He deals with them in truth. Everything he says about the Quran and Muhammad is true.
What I'm reading are some vhement post by some guy who doesn't know the first thing about reaching Moslems. Anyone can say they reach Moslems (something he's been careful to avoid saying, if you'll notice)
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Seems to me Gary claims the "organization" he's "with" deals with Moslems, but I've known lots and lots of Moslems and not one of them I know would listen to anyone spouting stuff like that to them. So I have a hard time beleiving any Moslems are actually turning the Christi based on such unChristlike tactics.


His post states and I quote "WE HAVE MANY CONVERTS and many Muslims seekers".
So anything anyone posts here is automatically true, or is it just him, and you?

That statement does not deserve an answer. It's NOT even a creditable counter just another form of bashing. So you really think that "It's true because he said it's true" is a valid argument?
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
I find what he says ludicrous. You can't reach Moslems that way.
Ludicrous???

Judging Others
(All scriptures are NIV unless otherwise noted.)
Why not use a real Bible?
Justice said:
Is it OK for Christians to judge the teaching of other believers? This study will show what scripture says about judging.
No, the verses you showed said nothing about proclaiming the Gospel. It's alright to teach Christians about the errors in other religions, but it's inapropriate, and just plain stupid, to do so as part of an outreach to people in that religion. Especially in such a antagonistic way.

Tell that to Stephen {Acts 7}[/quote:3a936]Please point out where Stephen criticized anyone's religion in that chapter, or exampled or endorsed an antagonistic witnessing method.
 
Jack Lewis said:
Justice said:
[quote="Jack Lewis":7bb5e]
Justice said:
[quote="Jack Lewis":7bb5e]
You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

Jack, please show us the sura/verse in the quran which COMMANDS "them" to study the Bible.
3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
The sura's you offered are NOT commandments to study the Gospel. [/quote:7bb5e]Riiiiight. Interesting that these are precisely the verses real missionaries to Moslem people use. These would be the missionaries that actually have lots of converts. These would be the verses that Moslems admit, command them to study the Bible.
Jack, Jack, Jack, who are these missionaries??? Why not tell us how many converts that God has won by using these missionaries as his instruments??? I guess your Muslims forgot these suras that contradict what you claim is a "commandment" which I fail to read in the suras you quoted.

[33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book <Christians and Jews> who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.

****[62.5] The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, <The Jewish Pentateuch – the books of law written by Moses - contained in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible > then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

****[62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful.

****[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

[8.64] O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such of the believers as follow you.

****[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book,< Christians and Jews> until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

****[48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.


[quote:7bb5e]
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Your response had nothign to do with the poll. Reread it.

In taking the Gospel to Muslims, should the evil of Islam and Muhammad be exposed?
YES - part of the Gospel is revealing evil and sin.
20% [ 2 ]
NO - only talk about and show the love of Christ.
20% [ 2 ]
Both - highlight the evil/sin of man, including Muhammad; show the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ.
60% [ 6 ]
Neither - there are other options that you have not described.
0% [ 0 ]

My post shows the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ under the "BOTH" options in the poll. It also shows that Jesus did not deny the adulters sin, when he said "Go, and sin no more". I'm starting to worry about you Jack because I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you don't get it this time I'll let you consider yourself the winner of this silliness.
A. The adulteress (not adulterer) was a Jew, not of a different religion than Jesus himself.
I stand corrected, does that make you happy??? Even though adultery usally takes a male counter part but only the adulteress was in danger of being stoned and mentioned in Matt. 28. [/quote:7bb5e]The point remains: This passage has nothing to do with ripping other religions as a part fo spreading the Gospel.
[quote:7bb5e]
B. He didn't criticize her religious belief, He emphasized the obedience to the belief she supposedly was under, Judaism.

You make a lot of assumptions.

There were many tensions between mainstream Judaism and Jesus-Judaism. [/quote:7bb5e]Huh? What does that have to do with topic? Besides, there was no "Jesus-Judaism" Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not practicing Judaism, not for not converting to some new form of Judaism.
[quote:7bb5e]

You started the topic of Judaism. Don't tell Jesus that according to your reasoning it should remain an eye for an eye. How many lambs have you sacificed this week??? Jesus fulfilled, no longer under the law but Grace, just to name a few new factors of Judaism.

Justice said:
Justice said:
Gary has been dealing with Muslims for a long time in a Christian manner. He deals with them in truth. Everything he says about the Quran and Muhammad is true.
What I'm reading are some vhement post by some guy who doesn't know the first thing about reaching Moslems. Anyone can say they reach Moslems (something he's been careful to avoid saying, if you'll notice)
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
Seems to me Gary claims the "organization" he's "with" deals with Moslems, but I've known lots and lots of Moslems and not one of them I know would listen to anyone spouting stuff like that to them. So I have a hard time beleiving any Moslems are actually turning the Christi based on such unChristlike tactics.


His post states and I quote "WE HAVE MANY CONVERTS and many Muslims seekers".
So anything anyone posts here is automatically true, or is it just him, and you?

That statement does not deserve an answer. It's NOT even a creditable counter just another form of bashing. So you really think that "It's true because he said it's true" is a valid argument?
Justice said:
Jack Lewis said:
I find what he says ludicrous. You can't reach Moslems that way.
Ludicrous???

Judging Others
(All scriptures are NIV unless otherwise noted.)
Why not use a real Bible?
Justice said:
Is it OK for Christians to judge the teaching of other believers? This study will show what scripture says about judging.
No, the verses you showed said nothing about proclaiming the Gospel. It's alright to teach Christians about the errors in other religions, but it's inapropriate, and just plain stupid, to do so as part of an outreach to people in that religion. Especially in such a antagonistic way.

Tell that to Stephen {Acts 7}[/quote:7bb5e]Please point out where Stephen criticized anyone's religion in that chapter, or exampled or endorsed an antagonistic witnessing method.[/quote:7bb5e]

I pointed this out in your thread of "Can someone answer something for me."

Love In Christ
Justice
 
JACK LEWIS: You cannot convince Moslems of the truth and veracity of the Gospel by attacking Mohamed, it just makes them defensive. The Quran commands them to study the Bible. Start from there. That's the way the missionaries who actually do bear fruit do it.

JUSTICE: Jack, please show us the sura/verse in the quran which COMMANDS "them" to study the Bible.

JACK LEWIS: 3:3 It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).

5:46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

9:111 Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah. then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.


JUSTICE: The sura's you offered are NOT commandments to study the Gospel.

JACK LEWIS: Riiiiight. Interesting that these are precisely the verses real missionaries to Moslem people use. These would be the missionaries that actually have lots of converts. These would be the verses that Moslems admit, command them to study the Bible.

JUSTICE: Jack, Jack, Jack, who are these missionaries??? Why not tell us how many converts that God has won by using these missionaries as his instruments???


JACK LEWIS: Ministries to Muslims -- http://www.equip.org/free/DI225(1-2-3).htm

"When the occasion arises where you are obliged to expose some of the weaknesses of Islam, never be directly critical or judgmental but speak sensitively and purposefully" -- answering-islam.org - http://answering-islam.org/Gilchrist/Vol2/3a.html

Some tips on witnessing to Muslims:
Be courteous and loving.
Reflect interest in their beliefs. Allow them time to articulate their views.
Be acquainted with their basic beliefs.
Be willing to examine passages of the Qur'an concerning their beliefs.
Stick to the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith but also take time to respond to all sincere questions.
Point out the centrality of the person and work of Jesus Christ for salvation.
Stress that because of Jesus, His cross, and resurrection, one may have the full assurance of salvation, both now and for eternity (see 1 John 5:13).
Share the plan of salvation with the Muslim. Point out that salvation is a gift and not to be earned.
Pray for the fullness of the Holy Spirit. Trust Him to provide wisdom and grace.
Be willing to become a friend and a personal evangelist to Muslims. -- Phil Roberts, Director of Interfaith Evangelism. North American Mission Board of the Southern Baptist Convention, from ChristianAnswer.net - http://www.christiananswers.net/evangel ... islam.html

"Many Muslims enjoy discussing their beliefs and how they differ from other religions. But remember that tearing down Islam is not your goal. Instead, share the basic doctrines of your Christian faith, especially Jesus’ role in assuring your salvation and enabling you to establish a personal relationship with God." -- Witnessing to Muslims, International Mission Board, SBC - http://www.tconline.org/Stories/jan02/witness.html

SEVEN SUGGESTIONS FOR WITNESSING TO MUSLIMS
Word of God – use the Bible, quote it and rely on its truth, especially prophecies about Jesus the Christ in the Old Testament and their fulfillment in the New.
Intercessory prayer – the Holy Spirit convicts and converts in response to prayer. One must be in tune with the Holy Spirit to see results.
Tell the truth in love – let it be love in word, deed and attitude, whether one on one, dialogue, debate, discussion, e-mail or correspondence.
Never give up. Keep sowing the seed. God will bring the harvest.
Express respect for the Muslim’s Quran and Muhammad, they respect Jesus and the scripture, so reciprocate.
Spiritual warfare – no success without understanding this aspect but you are not alone. Victory is assured according to Philippians 2:5-11.
Seek friendship and hospitality – a very powerful and tested method. After a meal preferably at your home show a debate video, give a book or a cassette which can open ones mind. Ask spiritual questions such as, “Can you be sure of attaining eternal life?â€
-- Anis Shorrosh, D.Phil., D. Min., author, lecturer, debater, international evangelist, TV documentary producer and native of Nazareth, a Palestinian Arab Christian American. -http://www.focusing-on-islam.com/Rules%20for%20Sharing%20Gospel%20to%20Muslims.htm

"Always build up (Christianity) never tear down (Islam). By building up Christianity you will send a positive message about your faith. By tearing down Islam the opposite message will be sent and will probably cause the Muslim to defend themselves." -- Lutheran Church of Australia - http://www.lca.org.au/resources/islam7.htm



JUSTICE: I guess your Muslims forgot these suras that contradict what you claim is a "commandment" which I fail to read in the suras you quoted.

[33.26] And He drove down those of the followers of the Book <Christians and Jews> who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.


JACK LEWIS: Historical narrative, not a commandment.


JUSTICE: ****[62.5] The likeness of those who were charged with the Taurat, <The Jewish Pentateuch – the books of law written by Moses - contained in the Old Testament of the Christian Bible > then they did not observe it, is as the likeness of the ass bearing books, evil is the likeness of the people who reject the communications of Allah; and Allah does not guide the unjust people.

JACK LEWIS: Criticizes Jews who do not follow the Tora. What's you're point?


JUSTICE: ****[62.6] Say: O you who are Jews, if you think that you are the favorites of Allah to the exclusion of other people, then invoke death If you are truthful.

JACK LEWIS: Says nothing about the Gospel. You seem to be gettign side tracked.

JUSTICE: ****[8.39] And fight with them until there is no more persecution and religion should be only for Allah; but if they desist, then surely Allah sees what they do.

JACK LEWIS: Still, says nothing about the Gospel


JUSTICE: [8.64] O Prophet! Allah is sufficient for you and (for) such of the believers as follow you.

JACK LEWIS: Allah is their word for God. How does this contradict the verses I gave?


JUSTICE: ****[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book,< Christians and Jews> until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

JACK LEWIS: Still says nothing about the Gospel.


JUSTICE: ****[48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

JACK LEWIS: Still says nothing about the Gospel. None of the verses you quoted can be reasonably interpreted as discouraging a Moslem from studying the Gospel, as the verses I gave commanded.

JUSTICE: My post shows the love and forgiveness that is Jesus Christ under the "BOTH" options in the poll. It also shows that Jesus did not deny the adulters sin, when he said "Go, and sin no more". I'm starting to worry about you Jack because I don't know how to make it any clearer. If you don't get it this time I'll let you consider yourself the winner of this silliness.

JACK LEWIS: B. He didn't criticize her religious belief, He emphasized the obedience to the belief she supposedly was under, Judaism.

JUSTICE: You make a lot of assumptions.

There were many tensions between mainstream Judaism and Jesus-Judaism.


JACK LEWIS: Huh? What does that have to do with topic? Besides, there was no "Jesus-Judaism" Jesus criticized the Pharisees for not practicing Judaism, not for not converting to some new form of Judaism.

JUSTICE: You started the topic of Judaism. Don't tell Jesus that according to your reasoning it should remain an eye for an eye. How many lambs have you sacificed this week??? Jesus fulfilled, no longer under the law but Grace, just to name a few new factors of Judaism.


JACK LEWIS: There was not two Judaisms. There was one, and Jesus brought the path to the fulfillment of it. Jesus' never criticized Judaism, only the Pharisee's lack of consistency in practicing it. Had they been consistent, they would have seen how Jesus was the fulfillment of the Law.


JUSTICE: Is it OK for Christians to judge the teaching of other believers? This study will show what scripture says about judging.

JACK LEWIS: No, the verses you showed said nothing about proclaiming the Gospel. It's alright to teach Christians about the errors in other religions, but it's inapropriate, and just plain stupid, to do so as part of an outreach to people in that religion. Especially in such a antagonistic way.

JUSTICE: Tell that to Stephen {Acts 7}

JACK LEWIS: Please point out where Stephen criticized anyone's religion in that chapter, or exampled or endorsed an antagonistic witnessing method.

JUSTICE: I pointed this out in your thread of "Can someone answer something for me."


JACK LEWIS: No, you didn't.
 
I don't believe being rude to a Muslim is the "right" way to try and convert him.

However, i do believe that you should tell them the Truth of Jesus Christ and let them decide what to believe. If anything, you have planted a seed.

Amen. and Praise and Glory to GOD our Father of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
 
Steve said:
Franklin Graham is correct. Islam is a very evil and wicked religion.

I see hatred, prejudice and bigotry hasn't gone away on this board yet. I guess maybe I'll step back outside and wait awhile longer.

Still, this sort of hateful bigotted statement serves to remind me why I'm glad I'm not a Christian. Prejudice just doesn't sit well in my stomach.

Considering the rate of decline of fundamentalist Christianity over the last hundred years, at least I can take solace in that my Grandchildren will not likely ever encounter Fudie hate mongering.
 
I can see how christian evangelizing may work in impoverished Muslim countries where the very vocal leaders are busy corrupting Islam,and keeping the masses dependent. But the sincere, knowledgeble Muslim will never be swayed by vileness, and attacks, such as "Islam is an evil religion, and Muhammad was an impostor". Just as supposed christians who know very little about their faith are easily swayed, the same goes for ignorant muslims.

This whole evangelizing mission business makes me suspect of christianity, as a muslim. how do you use subject experience as proof of the truth of your faith? If christianity was true then its truth would be self-evident to people and their would be no need for missionaries? There are no missionaries and evangelists among muslims.

Why is Islam still the fastest growing religion on earth, depite the glaring "truth" of christianity?

Peace and Blessings
 
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