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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Self-Righteousness
- Thread starter Dave...
- Start date
1 Corinthians 15:34  Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not
the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Talking about 'righteousness' while remaining in sin is actually self-righteousness
1 John 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth
righteousness is born of him.
If we know that He is the one that sets the standard of righteousness we know that
everyone that visibly follows and expresses that standard is not self-righteous
1 John 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Self-righteousness sets us on one side with the Devil
Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the
law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Self-righteousness is 'fallen from grace' and put ourselves up for justification by law,
therefore acting unfaithfully, against faith and against Christ.
Hebrews 1:9  Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,
even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
You despised self-righteousness and loved God's righteousness, that's why
God gave you the gladness that makes you shine brighter than your fellows.
James 3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
God's righteousness overcomes self-righteousness and is able to create peace
Psalms 37:30  The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue
talketh of judgment.
God's righteousness imparted expresses wisdom and its judgment is righteous.
the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
Talking about 'righteousness' while remaining in sin is actually self-righteousness
1 John 2:29  If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth
righteousness is born of him.
If we know that He is the one that sets the standard of righteousness we know that
everyone that visibly follows and expresses that standard is not self-righteous
1 John 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil:
whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
Self-righteousness sets us on one side with the Devil
Philippians 3:9  And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the
law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Self-righteousness is 'fallen from grace' and put ourselves up for justification by law,
therefore acting unfaithfully, against faith and against Christ.
Hebrews 1:9  Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,
even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
You despised self-righteousness and loved God's righteousness, that's why
God gave you the gladness that makes you shine brighter than your fellows.
James 3:18  And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
God's righteousness overcomes self-righteousness and is able to create peace
Psalms 37:30  The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue
talketh of judgment.
God's righteousness imparted expresses wisdom and its judgment is righteous.
U
unred typo
Guest
Dave wrote: What does it mean to be self-righteous according to the Bible?
Simply, substituting what God commands for something you devise yourself, giving it supreme importance instead of what he says. The motivation can vary between pride, laziness, and greed.
Jesus had harsh words for those who had taken the commands of God that were designed to teach people to love one another and turned them into a set of legal ordinances and rites used for monetary gain and prestige or for destroying their personal and political enemies. The Scribes and Pharisees were classic examples of self righteousness. They were not only self righteous, but they were hypocrites as well, because they taught one thing in public and did another in private.
In some religious circles, we are taught to think of self-righteousness in terms of those who attempt to do good works to earn their salvation. Anyone who supposes that he may earn the right to trot into glory riding his own little donkey will be sadly mistaken according to scripture. If you think that something you do pays your own way to stand before God, you are very wrong. No amount of works, money, or correct theology would make you perfect. It is only because of the blood of Christ that God graciously accepted as payment for our sin that we can be made perfect and able to stand in his presence.
What Jesus taught, how he told us to live, is according to the righteousness of God. When you say that he lived a perfect righteous life, which made him a suitable sacrifice for sin, you are correct. When you say that he doesn’t demand our obedience, you have established your own way, a self righteous way, to be saved. He clearly, without any qualms or questions, demanded that those who would like to live eternally must live a life according to his commands. They must be “doers of the word and not hearers only.†This is what you must believe in order to be saved. And you must actually believe what he said enough to actually do what he said.
Astounding as it seems, many who claim to be ‘born again’ have never bothered to read his commands even though they may have several copies of them in their homes. They have the unfortunate (self righteous) idea that what they did in “making a confession of faith†secured their spot beside the streets of gold. Instead of substituting the rituals of the OT law for the righteousness of God like the Pharisees, they have established their own righteousness on believing correct doctrines about God, which exclude works of every kind. You will find these people actually pride themselves on doing nothing. This absurd self righteousness even goes as far as to claim that by following Christ, you are trying to work your way to heaven.
:roll:
Simply, substituting what God commands for something you devise yourself, giving it supreme importance instead of what he says. The motivation can vary between pride, laziness, and greed.
Jesus had harsh words for those who had taken the commands of God that were designed to teach people to love one another and turned them into a set of legal ordinances and rites used for monetary gain and prestige or for destroying their personal and political enemies. The Scribes and Pharisees were classic examples of self righteousness. They were not only self righteous, but they were hypocrites as well, because they taught one thing in public and did another in private.
In some religious circles, we are taught to think of self-righteousness in terms of those who attempt to do good works to earn their salvation. Anyone who supposes that he may earn the right to trot into glory riding his own little donkey will be sadly mistaken according to scripture. If you think that something you do pays your own way to stand before God, you are very wrong. No amount of works, money, or correct theology would make you perfect. It is only because of the blood of Christ that God graciously accepted as payment for our sin that we can be made perfect and able to stand in his presence.
What Jesus taught, how he told us to live, is according to the righteousness of God. When you say that he lived a perfect righteous life, which made him a suitable sacrifice for sin, you are correct. When you say that he doesn’t demand our obedience, you have established your own way, a self righteous way, to be saved. He clearly, without any qualms or questions, demanded that those who would like to live eternally must live a life according to his commands. They must be “doers of the word and not hearers only.†This is what you must believe in order to be saved. And you must actually believe what he said enough to actually do what he said.
Astounding as it seems, many who claim to be ‘born again’ have never bothered to read his commands even though they may have several copies of them in their homes. They have the unfortunate (self righteous) idea that what they did in “making a confession of faith†secured their spot beside the streets of gold. Instead of substituting the rituals of the OT law for the righteousness of God like the Pharisees, they have established their own righteousness on believing correct doctrines about God, which exclude works of every kind. You will find these people actually pride themselves on doing nothing. This absurd self righteousness even goes as far as to claim that by following Christ, you are trying to work your way to heaven.
:roll:
U
unred typo
Guest
Geo quoted: Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God,
even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And then Geo gave us his interpretation:
You despised self-righteousness and loved God's righteousness, that's why
God gave you the gladness that makes you shine brighter than your fellows.
You kinda tweaked that one to fit your theology, didn’t you?
While self righteousness is iniquity, it is not the only iniquity that we are supposed to hate. We hate sin of every kind, don’t we, Geo?
Geo quoted: James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
And then gave us his interpretation:
God's righteousness overcomes self-righteousness and is able to create peace
God’s righteousness is found spelled out in red throughout the NT. If you follow what Jesus said, you will find peace and it will be the peace that passes understanding. You may not have peace in the world because some people hate him and everything he said but if you love one another, turn the other cheek, give away your goods and go the extra mile, as Jesus taught, you will be as peaceful as your doormat. We may hate that, but only because we still have to put down our prideful natures and die to self.
:
Geo quoted: Psalms 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue
talketh of judgment.
And then gave us his interpretation:
God's righteousness imparted expresses wisdom and its judgment is righteous.
Are you making this up by yourself or did someone give you these interpretations? Because I would like some clarification of what you mean by that ‘clarification.’ When I read the verse, it seems to me that the ‘righteous’ are OT saints but what you have written seems to be “imparted righteousnessââ‚ that speaks and not the godly people??? :-?
even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
And then Geo gave us his interpretation:
You despised self-righteousness and loved God's righteousness, that's why
God gave you the gladness that makes you shine brighter than your fellows.
You kinda tweaked that one to fit your theology, didn’t you?
While self righteousness is iniquity, it is not the only iniquity that we are supposed to hate. We hate sin of every kind, don’t we, Geo?
Geo quoted: James 3:18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.
And then gave us his interpretation:
God's righteousness overcomes self-righteousness and is able to create peace
God’s righteousness is found spelled out in red throughout the NT. If you follow what Jesus said, you will find peace and it will be the peace that passes understanding. You may not have peace in the world because some people hate him and everything he said but if you love one another, turn the other cheek, give away your goods and go the extra mile, as Jesus taught, you will be as peaceful as your doormat. We may hate that, but only because we still have to put down our prideful natures and die to self.
: Geo quoted: Psalms 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue
talketh of judgment.
And then gave us his interpretation:
God's righteousness imparted expresses wisdom and its judgment is righteous.
Are you making this up by yourself or did someone give you these interpretations? Because I would like some clarification of what you mean by that ‘clarification.’ When I read the verse, it seems to me that the ‘righteous’ are OT saints but what you have written seems to be “imparted righteousnessââ‚ that speaks and not the godly people??? :-?
lovely
Member
Hi Dave,
Dave wrote:
I think it is Psalm 19:7-14
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
I think it is the sin of presumption that David refers to here. It's cleaning our own house, making our own truth, walking by our own sight, and doing things in our own strength, and understanding. Its is a lack of fear for God, and His commands deep within our hearts. We need to trust in the Word, the Son, the Lamb, Our Priest, Prophet, and King, to wash us white as snow, and to sanctify us with the Holy Spirit according to the Father's plan. It's not having a genuine heart to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. It is not having a circumcision of the heart.
Self-righteousness is about looking, acting, speaking, and appearing, as a believer, but not being washed in the blood of the Lamb. I think it is a serious deception, and one we must be ever vigilant to guard our hearts against...it's adultery against God, and a refusal to walk in His counsel unquestioningly, to be led by the Spirit heart, mind, and soul.
It's a lack of love for our younger brothers and sisters by teaching them traditions of men before principals of Christ. It's a lack of respect for our older brothers, and sisters, who have had life's polishing, and have worn out their Bibles clinging to the Gospel. It's is a lack of patience and love against those who are of different denominations by arguing and having vain disputes about traditions of men, rather than lovingly sharing a word of Truth (and also having a heart to receive it as well), and building relationships in Christ. It's a failure to love our enemies by engaging them, sharing truth with them, and living it before them sincerely. It's our refusal to clothe the naked, pray for the sick, feed the hungry, adopt the orphans, care for the widows (older), and love those who are lonely, and in need, by welcoming them in our homes to practice Godly hospitality.
And most of all, it is a lack of jealousy for the Truth of God. It is an inability to be taught by God, and to be given over to the Word above all the chatter, tradition, denominations, peers, family, etc. It is a refusal to hate the world in every area, and allow the Lord to shed us of it's teachings, it's lusts, it's powers, and to strip us of our 'self'. It's adultery.
The Lord bless you, and thanks for the question. I am looking forward to the input of others.
Dave wrote:
I think it is Psalm 19:7-14
7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
I think it is the sin of presumption that David refers to here. It's cleaning our own house, making our own truth, walking by our own sight, and doing things in our own strength, and understanding. Its is a lack of fear for God, and His commands deep within our hearts. We need to trust in the Word, the Son, the Lamb, Our Priest, Prophet, and King, to wash us white as snow, and to sanctify us with the Holy Spirit according to the Father's plan. It's not having a genuine heart to deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Him. It is not having a circumcision of the heart.
Self-righteousness is about looking, acting, speaking, and appearing, as a believer, but not being washed in the blood of the Lamb. I think it is a serious deception, and one we must be ever vigilant to guard our hearts against...it's adultery against God, and a refusal to walk in His counsel unquestioningly, to be led by the Spirit heart, mind, and soul.
It's a lack of love for our younger brothers and sisters by teaching them traditions of men before principals of Christ. It's a lack of respect for our older brothers, and sisters, who have had life's polishing, and have worn out their Bibles clinging to the Gospel. It's is a lack of patience and love against those who are of different denominations by arguing and having vain disputes about traditions of men, rather than lovingly sharing a word of Truth (and also having a heart to receive it as well), and building relationships in Christ. It's a failure to love our enemies by engaging them, sharing truth with them, and living it before them sincerely. It's our refusal to clothe the naked, pray for the sick, feed the hungry, adopt the orphans, care for the widows (older), and love those who are lonely, and in need, by welcoming them in our homes to practice Godly hospitality.
And most of all, it is a lack of jealousy for the Truth of God. It is an inability to be taught by God, and to be given over to the Word above all the chatter, tradition, denominations, peers, family, etc. It is a refusal to hate the world in every area, and allow the Lord to shed us of it's teachings, it's lusts, it's powers, and to strip us of our 'self'. It's adultery.
The Lord bless you, and thanks for the question. I am looking forward to the input of others.
Geo quoted: Psalms 37:30 The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue
talketh of judgment.
And then gave us his interpretation:
God's righteousness imparted expresses wisdom and its judgment is righteous.
unred typo quoted: Are you making this up by yourself or did someone give you these interpretations? Because I would
like some clarification of what you mean by that ‘clarification.’ When I read the verse, it seems to me that the ‘righteous’
are OT saints but what you have written seems to be “imparted righteousness” that speaks and not the godly people???
We are just servants and I don't call His righteousness my possession,
therefore giving credit to Him as the source. Of course we speak, but just
in the function of a tool, serving Him, not our own interests. Therefore and
only then are we able to express judgment that is truly righteous. Then we
don't have any bias or own interests. And that's exactly what this thread is about.
talketh of judgment.
And then gave us his interpretation:
God's righteousness imparted expresses wisdom and its judgment is righteous.
unred typo quoted: Are you making this up by yourself or did someone give you these interpretations? Because I would
like some clarification of what you mean by that ‘clarification.’ When I read the verse, it seems to me that the ‘righteous’
are OT saints but what you have written seems to be “imparted righteousness” that speaks and not the godly people???
We are just servants and I don't call His righteousness my possession,
therefore giving credit to Him as the source. Of course we speak, but just
in the function of a tool, serving Him, not our own interests. Therefore and
only then are we able to express judgment that is truly righteous. Then we
don't have any bias or own interests. And that's exactly what this thread is about.
destiny
Member
Thats so true, Geo. It is in knowing we can take no credit for our own righteousness. Our righteousness apart from God "is as filthy rags".Geo said:
Humility is in knowing that all credit for anything 'good' in us belongs to God.
When I think of self righteousness I always think of Luke 18:10-14, because the pharisee exalted his own "religious" abilities instead of realizing that in his arrogance he was no better than the rest.
The other man, who from all outward appearance was considered the worst of sinners (a reviled tax collector) yet he knew he desperately needed Gods mercy.
He is the one who was justified before God.
It makes me wonder how many people we misjudge today because of a squeaky clean outward appearance, versus, a messed up looking 'sinner'.
“Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other menâ€â€extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will b exalted.â€Â
U
unred typo
Guest
Destiny wrote: It is in knowing we can take no credit for our own righteousness. Our righteousness apart from God "is as filthy rags".
This is a common misuse of the verse in Isaiah 64 where the prophet is describing the hypocritical spiritual state of Israel at a particular time of judgment. He is not making a statement about the good deeds of sincere people. When we do good things out of a sincere desire to please God, we are being righteous. When we do good things to be seen of men, or for some gain of our own lusts, our righteousness is filthy rags. If you read the history of Isaiah‘s time, you can find out why God hated their pious acts at his temple while they sacrificed their infants to pagan gods. God is not saying he hates all man’s righteous deeds.
The problem of our righteousness is that we are not perfect in righteousness. We sin even when we want to do right. The spirit may be willing but the flesh is weak. That’s why Jesus gave his blood to cover and remove our sin from us so we could be perfect in our righteousness. So it is not so much that we “can take no credit for our own righteousness†but that we have no excuse to not be righteous. Not only can we do all things through Christ who strengthens us, but if we sin, and we confess our sin, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Since we all have sinned, no one can boast that they were saved because of their righteousness, but because of the blood that kept them righteous through confession and repentance.
This is a common misuse of the verse in Isaiah 64 where the prophet is describing the hypocritical spiritual state of Israel at a particular time of judgment. He is not making a statement about the good deeds of sincere people. When we do good things out of a sincere desire to please God, we are being righteous. When we do good things to be seen of men, or for some gain of our own lusts, our righteousness is filthy rags. If you read the history of Isaiah‘s time, you can find out why God hated their pious acts at his temple while they sacrificed their infants to pagan gods. God is not saying he hates all man’s righteous deeds.
The problem of our righteousness is that we are not perfect in righteousness. We sin even when we want to do right. The spirit may be willing but the flesh is weak. That’s why Jesus gave his blood to cover and remove our sin from us so we could be perfect in our righteousness. So it is not so much that we “can take no credit for our own righteousness†but that we have no excuse to not be righteous. Not only can we do all things through Christ who strengthens us, but if we sin, and we confess our sin, the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all unrighteousness. Since we all have sinned, no one can boast that they were saved because of their righteousness, but because of the blood that kept them righteous through confession and repentance.
U
unred typo
Guest
Destiny wrote:
You corrected my post only to say pretty much the same thing. Thanks teacher :-?
I’m sorry if it sounded like I was talking down to you, destiny. We all only have one teacher, who is the Lord. What I wanted to correct was the idea that all of man’s righteousnesses are filthy rags, which is the common usage of that phrase. Let me highlight the difference:
When you said, “It is in knowing we can take no credit for our own righteousness. Our righteousness apart from God "is as filthy rags", you seem to be saying, as some assert here, that nothing we do for God is acceptable until we are ‘born again’. This makes the works come from God as a source, which takes away from man’s responsibility (and his ability) to do them. The reason for doing this appears to be a fear that we might be able to boast of our salvation. This fear is unwarranted because when we do all the good deeds we can find to do, and live as righteously as we possibly can according to Christ’s commands, we can only say that we are unprofitable servants doing what is our duty to do, for without his blood we could never save ourselves.
Do you see what I mean now?
You corrected my post only to say pretty much the same thing. Thanks teacher :-?
I’m sorry if it sounded like I was talking down to you, destiny. We all only have one teacher, who is the Lord. What I wanted to correct was the idea that all of man’s righteousnesses are filthy rags, which is the common usage of that phrase. Let me highlight the difference:
When you said, “It is in knowing we can take no credit for our own righteousness. Our righteousness apart from God "is as filthy rags", you seem to be saying, as some assert here, that nothing we do for God is acceptable until we are ‘born again’. This makes the works come from God as a source, which takes away from man’s responsibility (and his ability) to do them. The reason for doing this appears to be a fear that we might be able to boast of our salvation. This fear is unwarranted because when we do all the good deeds we can find to do, and live as righteously as we possibly can according to Christ’s commands, we can only say that we are unprofitable servants doing what is our duty to do, for without his blood we could never save ourselves.
Do you see what I mean now?
destiny
Member
I didn't take you to be talking down to me, unred. I don't know you that well, so I sterotyped you as trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. (as my mother used to say)unred typo said:
I see what you meant now.
I was trying to say, 'works', like those mentioned in the scripture I posted about the pharisee, are as filthy rags to God because of a self reliant arrogant heart.
Plus, anything we do apart from God will be burned up as wood, hay, and stubble. So I guess that might qualify as 'filthy rags' also.
Thats all
U
unred typo
Guest
Destiny wrote: I didn't take you to be talking down to me, unred. I don't know you that well, so I sterotyped you as trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. (as my mother used to say)
I see what you meant now.
I was trying to say, 'works', like those mentioned in the scripture I posted about the pharisee, are as filthy rags to God because of a self reliant arrogant heart.
Plus, anything we do apart from God will be burned up as wood, hay, and stubble. So I guess that might qualify as 'filthy rags' also.
Thats all
We’re almost there. :wink: By “anything we do apart from God†do you mean good works done with selfish motives or teaching errors that are not from God? The passage in 1 Corinthians 3 about wood, hay and stubble, I believe, is about a person’s doctrines being wrong while their life is actually righteous before God. Kind of the reverse of the Pharisees who taught right and lived wrong. They were not just arrogant, they were hypocritical vipers according to Jesus. The Pharisees were doing evil deeds, like “devouring widows’ houses,†falsely accusing political enemies and having righteous people murdered, to name a few. They were not nice people whose pride got the best of them.
There is nothing wrong with being self reliant as long as you know that your talents and abilities are a gift from God, to be used for doing good for others. There seem to be more people who bury their talent and wait for God to do something with it while they watch TBN and wish for more material goods and lust after the pleasures of this world.
:roll:
I see what you meant now.
I was trying to say, 'works', like those mentioned in the scripture I posted about the pharisee, are as filthy rags to God because of a self reliant arrogant heart.
Plus, anything we do apart from God will be burned up as wood, hay, and stubble. So I guess that might qualify as 'filthy rags' also.
Thats all
We’re almost there. :wink: By “anything we do apart from God†do you mean good works done with selfish motives or teaching errors that are not from God? The passage in 1 Corinthians 3 about wood, hay and stubble, I believe, is about a person’s doctrines being wrong while their life is actually righteous before God. Kind of the reverse of the Pharisees who taught right and lived wrong. They were not just arrogant, they were hypocritical vipers according to Jesus. The Pharisees were doing evil deeds, like “devouring widows’ houses,†falsely accusing political enemies and having righteous people murdered, to name a few. They were not nice people whose pride got the best of them.
There is nothing wrong with being self reliant as long as you know that your talents and abilities are a gift from God, to be used for doing good for others. There seem to be more people who bury their talent and wait for God to do something with it while they watch TBN and wish for more material goods and lust after the pleasures of this world.
:roll:
destiny
Member
What I mean by "anything we do apart from God" ...is dead works. I believe anything we do 'good' that isn't through the leading of the Holy Spirit or in wanting to please God, won't count as anything except wood hay or stubble when we stand before God.unred typo said:
According to 1 Corinthians 3:12-13, wood hay and staw/stubble is 'works', not doctrine...
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
Another more serious example of works that were done apart from God is...
Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name and by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works? And I will profess to them, I never knew you. Go away from me you who work evil." (Matt 7:22-23)
Are we there yet?
U
unred typo
Guest
Destiny wrote: What I mean by "anything we do apart from God" ...is dead works. I believe anything we do 'good' that isn't through the leading of the Holy Spirit or in wanting to please God, won't count as anything except wood hay or stubble when we stand before God.
Let’s take this out of the theological argument and down to earth where we live. Does the orphan boy who cares for dying mother out of love and concern for her, doing ‘dead works’ because he was born in a region that wasn‘t touched by the gospel? Or will you concede that all works that are done in true love and mercy are done ‘in God’?
Destiny wrote: According to 1 Corinthians 3:12-13, wood hay and staw/stubble is 'works', not doctrine...
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
What is Paul talking about when he starts the subject? Drop back to verse 4: “For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?†You see the divisions are about doctrines built on the foundation of Christ’s teaching in verse 11. Read the entire chapter, destiny. When Paul talks about his work in verse 8, he isn’t reporting about his pea patch. “Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. â€Â
Destiny wrote: Another more serious example of works that were done apart from God is...
Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name and by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works? And I will profess to them, I never knew you. Go away from me you who work evil." (Matt 7:22-23)
Here you can see the ‘works’ they professed were prophesies, which is revealing the word of God, casting out demons, which is done speaking the word of God or speaking in the name of God, and mighty works that apparently do not include simple acts of kindness, mercy and love. Then see that Jesus ignores their works of wood, hay and stubble and names their sin, calling them workers of iniquity who did nothing to relieve the suffering of those around them. Their lives are not filled with love and mercy but with evil instead.
Destiny wrote: Are we there yet?
I donno, destiny. I thought we were closer than we really were I guess. Are we even headed in the same direction? Are you a North-going Zax or a South-going Zax? :-D
Let’s take this out of the theological argument and down to earth where we live. Does the orphan boy who cares for dying mother out of love and concern for her, doing ‘dead works’ because he was born in a region that wasn‘t touched by the gospel? Or will you concede that all works that are done in true love and mercy are done ‘in God’?
Destiny wrote: According to 1 Corinthians 3:12-13, wood hay and staw/stubble is 'works', not doctrine...
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light.
What is Paul talking about when he starts the subject? Drop back to verse 4: “For while one says, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are you not carnal?†You see the divisions are about doctrines built on the foundation of Christ’s teaching in verse 11. Read the entire chapter, destiny. When Paul talks about his work in verse 8, he isn’t reporting about his pea patch. “Now he that plants and he that waters are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor. â€Â
Destiny wrote: Another more serious example of works that were done apart from God is...
Many will say to me in that day Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by your name and by your name cast out demons, and by your name do many mighty works? And I will profess to them, I never knew you. Go away from me you who work evil." (Matt 7:22-23)
Here you can see the ‘works’ they professed were prophesies, which is revealing the word of God, casting out demons, which is done speaking the word of God or speaking in the name of God, and mighty works that apparently do not include simple acts of kindness, mercy and love. Then see that Jesus ignores their works of wood, hay and stubble and names their sin, calling them workers of iniquity who did nothing to relieve the suffering of those around them. Their lives are not filled with love and mercy but with evil instead.
Destiny wrote: Are we there yet?
I donno, destiny. I thought we were closer than we really were I guess. Are we even headed in the same direction? Are you a North-going Zax or a South-going Zax? :-D
destiny
Member
Hellooo there unred!....
That kind of assumption creates a slippery slope that confuses humanism with Godliness.
According to Romans 3:28, In order for the orphan boy to be rewared for his 'works', first he must be justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
"The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
In these last verses Paul refers to what will happen to those who lay a foundation OTHER than that Of Jesus Christ...
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
The fire will burn up all works that are laid apart from Jesus Christ.
No, I don't believe all works that are done out of love and concern for others are done, 'in God'. If that were the case then we would have to assume that Dr. Kevorkians human emotions toward the dying were, 'in God'.unred typo said:
That kind of assumption creates a slippery slope that confuses humanism with Godliness.
According to Romans 3:28, In order for the orphan boy to be rewared for his 'works', first he must be justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
Again, when we look at verses 8 and 9 we know that he is referring to those who are IN Christ Jesus...
"The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.
In these last verses Paul refers to what will happen to those who lay a foundation OTHER than that Of Jesus Christ...
For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
The fire will burn up all works that are laid apart from Jesus Christ.
The very fact that He called them workers of iniquity and then said He ("never knew them") would indicate that their works were done apart from God. Had they known God and been in His will they would have had a more favorable outcome.
U
unred typo
Guest
Destiny wrote:
Hellooo there unred!.…
Hei, destiny. I thought we could have an enlightening exchange but the possibilities are getting dimmer. My mistake.
Destiny wrote: No, I don't believe all works that are done out of love and concern for others are done, 'in God'. If that were the case then we would have to assume that Dr. Kevorkians human emotions toward the dying were, 'in God'.
That kind of assumption creates a slippery slope that confuses humanism with Godliness.
According to Romans 3:28, In order for the orphan boy to be rewared for his 'works', first he must be justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
Well, actually, destiny, I did say, “works done in true love and mercy.†I wouldn’t say whether Dr. K’s heart was probably in the right place or not but he was being deceived by the old serpent. He may have been motivated by money or fame or the thrill of dispensing death for all I know. I’m not his judge or on his jury. Would you concede that all good deeds done in true love and mercy are done ‘in God’?
You quoted Romans 3:28, For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. What does law keeping, such as doing rites like circumcision and not eating pork, have to do with good deeds done out of love? Doing good deeds, expecting no reward in this life, for the sake of those in need, is having faith in Christ. Don’t you get it?
Destiny wrote: Again, when we look at verses 8 and 9 we know that he is referring to those who are IN Christ Jesus... 1 Corinthians 3:8-9
In these last verses Paul refers to what will happen to those who lay a foundation OTHER than that Of Jesus Christ...
The fire will burn up all works that are laid apart from Jesus Christ.
The question was about whether works here refer to teaching doctrines or doing good deeds, destiny. I am not going to try to make this distinction for you because I would no doubt lose my sanity in the process. Doctrine is going to be involved with good works because what you believe (doctrine) drives you to do either good or evil, (works) so the line between them is going to be blurred. Someone without 20/20 vision won’t be able to make that distinction. I thought you were capable of more and I offended you to no purpose. Back to your lives, citizens. There’s nothing to see here.
Destiny wrote: The very fact that He called them workers of iniquity and then said He ("never knew them") would indicate that their works were done apart from God. Had they known God and been in His will they would have had a more favorable outcome.
Apart from God? That would be an understatement. No, the very fact that He called them “workers of iniquity†would indicate that they were engrossed in evil deeds while ‘playing church.’ They did what they felt were “wondrous things†but never anything to relieve the suffering of those in need. No works of love and mercy. Even the ‘casting out of demons’ was apparently just the futile exercise described in Matthew 12:43-45 where the results don’t last but only open up the possibility of a worse state. They might have merely pretended to cast out demons in order to gather a bigger flock to fleece. Jesus said he didn’t even know them because they were just name dropping xtians who had no clue what Jesus was all about. Their personal relationship with him was just a sham. They never knew him as Lord, nor entered into his kingdom.
Well, we’re not there yet but I think I’ll just drop you off at the bus stop. :wink: Don’t take any wooden nickels.
Hellooo there unred!.…
Hei, destiny. I thought we could have an enlightening exchange but the possibilities are getting dimmer. My mistake.
Destiny wrote: No, I don't believe all works that are done out of love and concern for others are done, 'in God'. If that were the case then we would have to assume that Dr. Kevorkians human emotions toward the dying were, 'in God'.
That kind of assumption creates a slippery slope that confuses humanism with Godliness.
According to Romans 3:28, In order for the orphan boy to be rewared for his 'works', first he must be justified through faith in Jesus Christ.
Well, actually, destiny, I did say, “works done in true love and mercy.†I wouldn’t say whether Dr. K’s heart was probably in the right place or not but he was being deceived by the old serpent. He may have been motivated by money or fame or the thrill of dispensing death for all I know. I’m not his judge or on his jury. Would you concede that all good deeds done in true love and mercy are done ‘in God’?
You quoted Romans 3:28, For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. What does law keeping, such as doing rites like circumcision and not eating pork, have to do with good deeds done out of love? Doing good deeds, expecting no reward in this life, for the sake of those in need, is having faith in Christ. Don’t you get it?
Destiny wrote: Again, when we look at verses 8 and 9 we know that he is referring to those who are IN Christ Jesus... 1 Corinthians 3:8-9
In these last verses Paul refers to what will happen to those who lay a foundation OTHER than that Of Jesus Christ...
The fire will burn up all works that are laid apart from Jesus Christ.
The question was about whether works here refer to teaching doctrines or doing good deeds, destiny. I am not going to try to make this distinction for you because I would no doubt lose my sanity in the process. Doctrine is going to be involved with good works because what you believe (doctrine) drives you to do either good or evil, (works) so the line between them is going to be blurred. Someone without 20/20 vision won’t be able to make that distinction. I thought you were capable of more and I offended you to no purpose. Back to your lives, citizens. There’s nothing to see here.
Destiny wrote: The very fact that He called them workers of iniquity and then said He ("never knew them") would indicate that their works were done apart from God. Had they known God and been in His will they would have had a more favorable outcome.
Apart from God? That would be an understatement. No, the very fact that He called them “workers of iniquity†would indicate that they were engrossed in evil deeds while ‘playing church.’ They did what they felt were “wondrous things†but never anything to relieve the suffering of those in need. No works of love and mercy. Even the ‘casting out of demons’ was apparently just the futile exercise described in Matthew 12:43-45 where the results don’t last but only open up the possibility of a worse state. They might have merely pretended to cast out demons in order to gather a bigger flock to fleece. Jesus said he didn’t even know them because they were just name dropping xtians who had no clue what Jesus was all about. Their personal relationship with him was just a sham. They never knew him as Lord, nor entered into his kingdom.
Well, we’re not there yet but I think I’ll just drop you off at the bus stop. :wink: Don’t take any wooden nickels.
U
unred typo
Guest
Destiny wrote: Sorry to have ruffled your feathers, unred :wink:
My guess is you’d be sorrier to know that you didn’t. :wink: :angel:
My guess is you’d be sorrier to know that you didn’t. :wink: :angel:
When one seeks to justify and earn God's righteousness by his own efforts - works salvation - the "lose it" doctrine - All fall into:Dave... said:
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.