Should Jews and Christians follow the Bible or the Quran?

[Gary]

Quran contradiction

Should Jews and Christians follow the Bible or the Quran?

Here is a summary of all the problems that arise from what the Quran teaches so as to help the readers see more clearly the major dilemma caused by the Quran’s conflicting instructions:

• (1) Jews (and Christians?) are told not to go to Muhammad for decision, but follow the decision given by Allah in the Torah/Law.
  
  (2) Jews and Christians are commanded to follow the guidance of their own religious Scriptures, the Torah and Injil/Gospel respectively.
  
  (3) The Bible determines whether the Quran is true or not.
  
  (4) Muhammad must judge Jews and Christians by the Quran which was sent down to confirm and protect the previous Scriptures.
  
  (5) Jews and Christians are also commanded to follow the guidance of the Quran.
  
  (6) The Quran fails to confirm the previous revelation, the Torah and the Injil, since it blatantly contradicts many of the teachings found in these Scriptures.
  
  (7) This causes problems for the Jews and Christians since the Quran commands them to follow the guidance of their own Scriptures which they cannot do if they must follow what the Quran teaches.
  
  (8) This means that the Jews and Christians must either reject the Quran whenever it contradicts the Holy Bible, or reject the Holy Bible whenever it contradicts the Quran.
  
  (9) Yet to reject the Quran in order to uphold the directives of the Holy Bible is to go against the Quran’s insistence that they should follow it.
  
  (10) At the same time, to reject the directives of the Holy Bible in order to uphold the Quran is to reject what the Quran says about following the Holy Bible and its own claim that the Jewish and Christian Scriptures are the criteria determining the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the Quran!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Like most man-made religions (including Roman Catholicism), the contradictions are obvious.

Click here for the detail:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Co ... quran.html

:-? :-?

 

[Bilal]

You say Contradictions of the Quran?- gimme some quotes and then we shall get busy...what d'ya say? :-D

EDIT: and just for clarification, as you are easily distracted, 'quotes' as in realting to each one of those points. Dont bring your other trash into this please. As you keep telling Soma, stay on topic.

 

[Gary]

Teaching the Muslims about the contradictions in the Quran

The Quran instructs both Jews and Christians to follow the guidance given to them in the Torah/Law and the Injil/Gospel:

But how do they come to you for decision while they have the Taurat (Torah), in which IS the (plain) Decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers. S. 5:43 Hilali-Khan

What makes this text interesting is that it discourages the Jews (and presumably the Christians) from turning to Muhammad for guidance since they have the Torah which contains the plain decision of Allah!

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein IS guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. S. 5:46-47 Pickthall

Here Christians are told to consult the Gospel since it is guidance and light. Hence, the foregoing verses are basically telling the Jews and Christians that they do not need Muhammad’s Quran since they have all that they need in the Law and the Gospel.



So far we have (1) and (2), namely;

(1) Jews (and Christians?) are told not to go to Muhammad for decision, but follow the decision given by Allah in the Torah/Law.

(2) Jews and Christians are commanded to follow the guidance of their own religious Scriptures, the Torah and Injil/Gospel respectively.

:wink:

 

[Bilal]

It is to be borne in mind that the Gospel frequently mentioned in the Qur'aiun is not identical with what is known today as the Four Gospels, but refers to an original, since lost, revelation bestowed upon Jesus and known to his contemporaries under its Greek name of Evangelion ("Good Tiding"), on which the Arabicized form Injil is based. It was probably the source from which the Synoptic Gospels derived much of their material and some of the teachings attributed to Jesus. The fact of its having been lost and forgotten is alluded to in the Qur'an in 5:14.

Either way, the people are still told to seek Allah's word. Today that is the Quran, as the Original Gospel (Injil) has been corrupted.

I still dont see how any of this amounts to any contradiction in Holy owrd of God, the Quran.

 

[Gary]

It is to be borne in mind that the Gospel frequently mentioned in the Qur'aiun is not identical with what is known today as the Four Gospels, but refers to an original, since lost, revelation bestowed upon Jesus and known to his contemporaries under its Greek name of Evangelion ("Good Tiding"), on which the Arabicized form Injil is based.

Bring your proof.

 

[Bilal]

here

 

[Gary]

Exposing the Muslim claim that a different Injil existed

What Bible existed at the time of Muhammad?

The Qur’an once again, when describing the Christian scripture, uses a word with which Christians are very familiar. It calls it al-Injil, "the Gospel", and says it was revealed to Jesus:

And following them we sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming what came before him in the Tawraat, and we gave him the Injil in which are guidance and light and confirming what came before him in the Tawraat. Surah 5.49 (Should be Surah 5:46)

From this text and other similar passages (Surah 3.3) it is clear that the Qur’an regards the Tawraat and Injil as the sum total of the Jewish and Christian scriptures respectively. Once again we find the Qur’an confirming the existence of the second scripture in the hands of the Christians at Muhammad’s time:

Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein. Surah 5.50 (Should be 5:47)

If the book was not intact in their hands, how could the Qur’an exhort the Christians to make their judgments by its guidance and light? It is significant that this text calls the Christians ahlul-Injil, the "People of the Gospel" - a further confirmation of the existence of the book in their hands at the time of Muhammad. Yet, as with the Jews, the Christians have known only one scripture throughout their history - the books of the New Testament as we know it today. In another passage the Qur’an again confirms that the two scriptures were in the possession of the Jews and Christians during Muhammad’s days:

Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet, will find him mentioned in the Tawraat and Injil with them. Surah 7.157

Again the Qur’an states that these scriptures are inda hum, Arabic words meaning very specifically "with them". It is obvious that Muhammad never doubted the integrity of the books which the Jews and Christians of his day regarded as their holy scripture. He had no reservations about confirming their integrity. Another passage from the Qur’an emphasises this fact very clearly:

Say, O People of the Scripture. You have no ground to stand on unless you stand fast by the Tawraat and the Injil and what has been sent down to you from your Lord. Surah 5.71 (Should be Surah 5:68)

How could they stand fast by these scriptures if, firstly, they did not possess them and, secondly, if they were not completely authentic?

It is undeniable that the Qur’an teaches that the Jewish and Christian scriptures were intact at the time of Muhammad. In another verse Muhammad is encouraged, if he was in doubt about anything revealed to him, to consult those who had been reading the scriptures before him, namely the Jews and Christians. (Surah 10:94)

Source: -here-

(Updated references to Surah 5:46, 5:47 and 5:68)

 

[Bilal]

Re: Exposing the Muslim claim that a different Injil existed

What Bible existed at the time of Muhammad?

The Qur’an once again, when describing the Christian scripture, uses a word with which Christians are very familiar. It calls it al-Injil, "the Gospel", and says it was revealed to Jesus:

And following them we sent Jesus the son of Mary confirming what came before him in the Tawraat, and we gave him the Injil in which are guidance and light and confirming what came before him in the Tawraat. Surah 5.49

"5:49 Hence, judge between the followers of earlier revelation [69] in accordance with what God has bestowed from on high, and do not follow their errant views; and beware of them, lest they tempt thee away from aught that God has bestowed from on high upon thee. And if they turn away [from His commandments], then know that it is but God's will [thus] to afflict them for some of their sins: [70] for, behold, a great many people are iniquitous indeed."

Is it me or are you making things up?

From this text and other similar passages (Surah 3.3) it is clear that the Qur’an regards the Tawraat and Injil as the sum total of the Jewish and Christian scriptures respectively. Once again we find the Qur’an confirming the existence of the second scripture in the hands of the Christians at Muhammad’s time:

[quote:45974]Let the people of the Injil judge by what Allah has revealed therein. Surah 5.50

[/quote:45974]

You have to tell me which translation you have been using (probably that dasterly QuranBrowser!) as i havent found those words being said:

"5:50 Do they then seek after a judgment of (the days of) ignorance? But who, for a people whose faith is assured, can give better judgment than Allah. "

From QuranSearch by Islamicity

If the book was not intact in their hands, how could the Qur’an exhort the Christians to make their judgments by its guidance and light? It is significant that this text calls the Christians ahlul-Injil, the "People of the Gospel" - a further confirmation of the existence of the book in their hands at the time of Muhammad. Yet, as with the Jews, the Christians have known only one scripture throughout their history - the books of the New Testament as we know it today. In another passage the Qur’an again confirms that the two scriptures were in the possession of the Jews and Christians during Muhammad’s days:

[quote:45974]Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered prophet, will find him mentioned in the Tawraat and Injil with them. Surah 7.157

Again the Qur’an states that these scriptures are inda hum, Arabic words meaning very specifically "with them". It is obvious that Muhammad never doubted the integrity of the books which the Jews and Christians of his day regarded as their holy scripture. He had no reservations about confirming their integrity. Another passage from the Qur’an emphasises this fact very clearly:

Say, O People of the Scripture. You have no ground to stand on unless you stand fast by the Tawraat and the Injil and what has been sent down to you from your Lord. Surah 5.71

How could they stand fast by these scriptures if, firstly, they did not possess them and, secondly, if they were not completely authentic? [/quote:45974]

Have you just made that verse up?!!! This is what it actually says:

5:71 They thought there would be no trial (or punishment); so they became blind and deaf; yet Allah (in mercy) turned to them; yet again many of them became blind and deaf. But Allah sees well all that they do.

From QuranSearch by Islamicity

Is this the way you argue with me, by using lies and outright deceit? Unbelievable!!! Making up verses from the Quran!!!

It is undeniable that the Qur’an teaches that the Jewish and Christian scriptures were intact at the time of Muhammad. In another verse Muhammad is encouraged, if he was in doubt about anything revealed to him, to consult those who had been reading the scriptures before him, namely the Jews and Christians. (Surah 10:94)

Source: -here-

When referring to the Injil, it is referring to the original word of Almighty Allah when He revealed the book to Jesus. When was the Christian Bible written- 300 years after the death of Christ. How can you say that the same book revealed to Jesus(pbuh) was the same one which was then written 300 years later by Mark, Paul, John, etc.?

BUT----how can i continue with this debate when your source-and-retrieval skills are appaling? Correct them and then we can carry on.

 

[Gary]

Relax.... calm down and READ

Relax... the references have been updated. The argument stands.

 

[Gary]

Exposing the deception of Muhammad's followers

When referring to the Injil, it is referring to the original word of Almighty Allah when He revealed the book to Jesus.

Really? You have no proof that a book DIFFERENT from the New Testament (as we have it today) existed at the time of Muhammad. Neither do you have any proof that such a book existed BEFORE or AFTER Muhammad's time. Like so much in Islam, this is wishful thinking devoid of any factual or historical proof.

When was the Christian Bible written- 300 years after the death of Christ.

Wrong again. Read and learn:
(1) http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bible/datingnt.htm
(2) http://www.geocities.com/gary_bee_za/bible/ntdates.htm

How can you say that the same book revealed to Jesus(pbuh) was the same one which was then written 300 years later by Mark, Paul, John, etc.?

Wrong again. There is no evidence BEFORE or at the time or AFTER Muhammad that there was a BOOK revealed to Jesus. Again, wishful and incorrect logic and thinking from you Muslims. Another of Muhammad's unsubstantiated little fairy-tales.

:-?

 

[Gary]

Quran contradiction

Should Jews and Christians follow the Bible or the Quran?

Here is a summary of all the problems that arise from what the Quran teaches so as to help the readers see more clearly the major dilemma caused by the Quran’s conflicting instructions:

• (1) Jews (and Christians?) are told not to go to Muhammad for decision, but follow the decision given by Allah in the Torah/Law.
  
  (2) Jews and Christians are commanded to follow the guidance of their own religious Scriptures, the Torah and Injil/Gospel respectively.
  
  (3) The Bible determines whether the Quran is true or not.
  
  (4) Muhammad must judge Jews and Christians by the Quran which was sent down to confirm and protect the previous Scriptures.
  
  (5) Jews and Christians are also commanded to follow the guidance of the Quran.
  
  (6) The Quran fails to confirm the previous revelation, the Torah and the Injil, since it blatantly contradicts many of the teachings found in these Scriptures.
  
  (7) This causes problems for the Jews and Christians since the Quran commands them to follow the guidance of their own Scriptures which they cannot do if they must follow what the Quran teaches.
  
  (8) This means that the Jews and Christians must either reject the Quran whenever it contradicts the Holy Bible, or reject the Holy Bible whenever it contradicts the Quran.
  
  (9) Yet to reject the Quran in order to uphold the directives of the Holy Bible is to go against the Quran’s insistence that they should follow it.
  
  (10) At the same time, to reject the directives of the Holy Bible in order to uphold the Quran is to reject what the Quran says about following the Holy Bible and its own claim that the Jewish and Christian Scriptures are the criteria determining the authenticity (or lack thereof) of the Quran!

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Like most man-made religions (including Roman Catholicism), the contradictions are obvious.

Click here for the detail:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Co ... quran.html

:-? :-?

OK, let's move on....

The Quran goes on to tell Muhammad to judge by the revelation given to him:

And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what IS before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way, and if Allah had pleased He would have made you (all) a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you, therefore strive with one another to hasten to virtuous deeds; to Allah is your return, of all (of you), so He will let you know that in which you differed; And that you should judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires, and be cautious of them, lest they seduce you from part of what Allah has revealed to you; but if they turn back, then know that Allah desires to afflict them on account of some of their faults; and most surely many of the people are transgressors. S. 5:48-49 Shakir

The above references explicitly say that Allah appointed for every one a specific law (shariah) and way, since his purpose wasn’t that all the people should be united as one. This implies that each group received laws that contained major differences between them, that none of the prescribed ways that Allah gave are identical with one another, and that this is one of the reasons why the nations became divided. In the words of Ibn Kathir:

… Allah has sent down various laws to all previous Messengers, but they all agreed upon the same creed (Tawheed)… All the former religions of the previous Prophets have different laws with regard to orders and interdictions. One thing could be lawful in a religion but unlawful in another, vice versa. And a law could be lenient in one but harsh in another. However, the last Shari’ah sent down to the seal of all Prophets, Muhammad, has abrogated all the former religions and laws [sic], and Allah has prescribed it to mankind and Jinns, to Arabs and non-Arabs.

Allah’s verse, <Had Allah willed He would have made you one nation, but that He may try you in what He has given you > means that He has ordained different laws in order to test His servants accordingly, and to reward them or punish them according to their deeds… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir: Surat An-Nisa’, ayat 148 to 176, Surah Al-Ma’idah, ayat 1 to 81, abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i [Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 2000: First Edition], Part 6, p. 182)

Ibn Kathir clearly saw the problem in what the Quran states and tried to somehow resolve the dilemma. The references of Sura 5:43 and 47 do not say that these specific injunctions to the Jews and Christians to follow their own Scriptures are for the period of time before Muhammad’s advent and that Muhammad’s Quran has now come to abolish/abrogate these other laws. On the contrary, the verses expressly exhort the Jews and Christians to abide by the Torah and the Gospel, despite the fact that the Quran has already arrived.

But there is more... and more contradiction...

:-?

 

[Gary]

Watch the Muslim try to squirm out of the contradiction...

Note, once again, what Sura 5:43 actually says:

But how do THEY come to YOU for decision while THEY have the Taurat (Torah), in which is the (plain) Decision of Allah; yet even after that, they turn away. For they are not (really) believers. Hilali-Khan

Notice the reference to the Jews coming to Muhammad, i.e "how do THEY come to YOU," showing clearly that this is referring to an event which took place at Muhammad's time.

Thus, this injunction to the Jews that they should consult the Torah instead of turning to Muhammad cannot be referring to the time before the Quran was composed.

Clearly, Ibn Kathir is wrong. He tried to resolve this problem by claiming that this competition is only for the past, but now it is only the Quran that is to be followed. But that is not what the Quran says.

But the dilemma created by Muhammad's contradictions continues.... read on

:-?

 

[Gary]

Now for the Big Issue - Bible or Quran?

Muhammad creates another dilemma....

This now brings us to a dilemma resulting from what the Quran says elsewhere, one which Ibn Kathir clearly saw and tried to reconcile. Muhammad is told to judge the Jews and Christians by the revelation given in the Quran, and that the Quran confirms the previous Scripture, namely the Torah and Injil. The Quran even commands Jews and Christians to follow the Quran:

O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid. And believe in what I have revealed, VERIFYING THAT WHICH IS WITH YOU, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear. S. 2:40-41 Shakir

And when there came to them a Book from Allah VERIFYING THAT WHICH THEY HAVE, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers. S. 2:89 Shakir

These next two texts enjoin the Jews and Christians to do what is commanded in God’s revelations, i.e. the Torah, the Injil etc.,

Had they PERFORMED the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have eaten both what was above them, and what was beneath their feet. Some of them are a just nation; but many of them -- evil are the things they do. Say: ‘People of the Book, you do not stand on anything, until you PERFORMED the Torah and the Gospel, and what was sent down to you from your Lord.’ And what has been sent down to thee from thy Lord will surely increase many of them in insolence and unbelief; so grieve not for the people of the unbelievers. S. 5:66, 68 Arberry

Yet these assertions introduce several problems:

First, there are many issues in which the Quran does not confirm the previous revelation, but expressly contradicts it (e.g, contradicting the laws in the Torah, the core of the message of the Gospel, in addition to many smaller contradictions between Quran and Bible).

Second, how can Muhammad judge Jews and Christians by the Quran and then expect these groups to judge by their own Scriptures, not by the Quran? How can the Jews and Christians perform what is commanded in the Torah, the Injil and all the rest of God’s revelations when the Quran contradicts many of the teachings and injunctions found in the Holy Bible? After all, what happens when a command of the Quran contradicts an express directive of the Torah and the Injil? What are the Jews and Christians supposed to do when this occurs? Are they to follow what the Quran says, thereby contradicting the Quran’s own command to follow the directives of their own religious Scriptures? Or should they follow the guidance and light of their own revelation and simply ignore the Quran?

Thirdly, Muhammad himself is commanded to consult the previous Scripture if he has any doubt regarding the Quran’s veracity:

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt. S. 10:94 Y. Ali

This presupposes that the Bible is the criterion over the Quran, and therefore implies that the Bible must determine whether the Quran is true or not, what parts can be believed and which should not be accepted etc. This therefore means that every time that the Quran contradicts the instructions and prohibitions of the Holy Bible, then the Quran must be rejected.

Thus, if Muhammad had passed judgment that contradicted the Torah and Injil, then the Jews and Christians would be forced to reject his decision since this is what the Quran says they must do!

For once, I agree with the Quran

Source: -here-

Thank you Sam Shamoun! May our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ, continue to bless you richly!

Maranatha!

 

[vinc]

In my opinion, its upto the Jews and Christians, which book(s) they would like to read and follow. The Jews give preference to Torah and the Old Testament books and life of Jesus in the Gospels but Christians give preference to the Epistles of Paul, Peter and John in the New Testament which contain fine Spiritual Truths.

The Jews and Christians can also read the Quran, if they choose, to in order to take the good points in Quran.

 

[vinc]

In my opinion, its upto the Jews and Christians, which book(s) they would like to read and follow. The Jews give preference to Torah and the Old Testament books and life of Jesus in the Gospels but Christians also give preference to the Epistles of Paul, Peter and John in the New Testament which contain fine Spiritual Truths.

The Jews and Christians can also read the Quran, if they choose, to in order to take the good points in Quran.

 

[Soma-Sight]

In my opinion, its upto the Jews and Christians, which book(s) they would like to read and follow. The Jews give preference to Torah and the Old Testament books and life of Jesus in the Gospels but Christians also give preference to the Epistles of Paul, Peter and John in the New Testament which contain fine Spiritual Truths.

The Jews and Christians can also read the Quran, if they choose, to in order to take the good points in Quran.

Amen.

 

[Gary]

The good parts of the Quran and other jokes...

In my opinion, its upto the Jews and Christians, which book(s) they would like to read and follow. The Jews give preference to Torah and the Old Testament books and life of Jesus in the Gospels but Christians also give preference to the Epistles of Paul, Peter and John in the New Testament which contain fine Spiritual Truths.

The Jews and Christians can also read the Quran, if they choose, to in order to take the good points in Quran.

Amen.

:D ... and which parts of the Quran would that be??

Do you have the same advise for how we should read Mein Kampf?
http://prophetofdoom.net/chapter.aspx?g=401&i=41026


:o

 

[Biblereader]

Follow the Bible. The New Testament will save your soul.

 

[Lewis]

Good going Gary.