Should we pray for the dead?

[Dave Slayer]

Should we pray for the dead? Is it Biblical?

 

[mutzrein]

Should we pray for the dead? Is it Biblical?

No. God is not the God of the dead but the living.

 

[stranger]

Should we pray for the dead? Is it Biblical?

hello Dave,

Jesus prayed for Lazarus after he had been dead for a few days. The mourners who were with Lazarus would not have done any wrong in praying for him. At funerals most Christians would join in prayer or pray commending the departed unto God - this is a prayer for the dead, so the practice has a strong precedent even among Protestants.

blessings

 

[SeraphimH]

Should we pray for the dead? Is it Biblical?

No. God is not the God of the dead but the living.

You are correct. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. We pray for the souls of those with us because Christ is Risen, trampling down death by death. The barrier between living and dead has been eliminated due to the Resurrection of Christ. Those who are departed are just as much with us and just as much a part of the Church as those who we see living on this earth. There is no longer any separation. And so not only do we pray for them, but they also pray for us; in the same way that you might ask your friends to pray for you and in turn pray for them so also do we pray for each other without concern for the separation of death.

Some of the confusion might occur in that most Protestant confessions teach that the judgment after death determines the eternal state of the soul. Not so, according to the Tradition and teaching of the Orthodox Faith of which I am a member. The particular judgment immediately after death only determines the state and "residence" of the soul in the spiritual world and that judgment is based on who our spiritual "friends" are. Do we have more converse with angels or demons? Do we devote ourselves more to the saints or to sinners? Are we attached to the world or to the Kingdom of God? Do we act like Satan or Christ? Whatever we are like, there we are placed in the spiritual world. And the demons are diligent in attempting to demonstrate that we are tied to them and not to Christ and so any and every unconfessed sin, no matter how seemingly small and insignificant is brought out by them as accusations against us and the angels on the other hand counter this accusation by a description of our righteous deeds which indicate our change of heart and life. But do not confuse this particular judgment and temporary disposition with the eternal disposition of the soul to be determined at the Great Judgment. Then, the soul being reunited with the body thanks to the general resurrection, each person will be judged by God Who sees within either the spark of grace or none and those who have that spark will be brought into the Kingdom of God and those who do not will be cast into outer darkness - finally and eternally. So you see that when we pray for the departed, we do so knowing that the final judgment has not yet occurred and while we don't know what the exact needs of the departed are, we can simply lift them up to God calling out for His mercy. It is not unbiblical to pray for the dead either. This practice is thousands of years old in both Jewish and Christian belief and practice.

It is in the OT, in 2 Maccabees 12:44: "For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead." (Of course for Protestants, "apocryphal" books aren't scripture, and this misinformation is a subject for another thread entirely.)

 

[stranger]

Should we pray for the dead? Is it Biblical?

No. God is not the God of the dead but the living.

You are correct. God is not the God of the dead but of the living. We pray for the souls of those with us because Christ is Risen, trampling down death by death. The barrier between living and dead has been eliminated due to the Resurrection of Christ. Those who are departed are just as much with us and just as much a part of the Church as those who we see living on this earth. There is no longer any separation. And so not only do we pray for them, but they also pray for us; in the same way that you might ask your friends to pray for you and in turn pray for them so also do we pray for each other without concern for the separation of death.

Some of the confusion might occur in that most Protestant confessions teach that the judgment after death determines the eternal state of the soul. Not so, according to the Tradition and teaching of the Orthodox Faith of which I am a member. The particular judgment immediately after death only determines the state and "residence" of the soul in the spiritual world and that judgment is based on who our spiritual "friends" are. Do we have more converse with angels or demons? Do we devote ourselves more to the saints or to sinners? Are we attached to the world or to the Kingdom of God? Do we act like Satan or Christ? Whatever we are like, there we are placed in the spiritual world. And the demons are diligent in attempting to demonstrate that we are tied to them and not to Christ and so any and every unconfessed sin, no matter how seemingly small and insignificant is brought out by them as accusations against us and the angels on the other hand counter this accusation by a description of our righteous deeds which indicate our change of heart and life. But do not confuse this particular judgment and temporary disposition with the eternal disposition of the soul to be determined at the Great Judgment. Then, the soul being reunited with the body thanks to the general resurrection, each person will be judged by God Who sees within either the spark of grace or none and those who have that spark will be brought into the Kingdom of God and those who do not will be cast into outer darkness - finally and eternally. So you see that when we pray for the departed, we do so knowing that the final judgment has not yet occurred and while we don't know what the exact needs of the departed are, we can simply lift them up to God calling out for His mercy. It is not unbiblical to pray for the dead either. This practice is thousands of years old in both Jewish and Christian belief and practice.

It is in the OT, in 2 Maccabees 12:44: "For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead." (Of course for Protestants, "apocryphal" books aren't scripture, and this misinformation is a subject for another thread entirely.)

Hi SeraphimH,

Interesting to meet an 'orthodox church believer' I think it would be fair to say that the majority of Protestants know even less about the Orthodox Church than they do about the Catholic Church. Though Protestants might not like the word 'tradition' they have a tradition to pray at funerals for the deceased. Some will argue that this does not count - but it is observable in practice at nearly every funeral. As far as I know this Protestant tradition goes back to the 1500's. Parts of the Anglican Church probably still pray for the dead.

One of the main difficulties with dead -- for the deceased, from the point of view of the living, is the realm of time as we know it. God is believed to be outside time - so it make little difference to Him. An even greater problem is that there are different interpretations about what happens to the spirit and soul of man. What happens to the body seems to be clear enough. So again in Protestant ranks there is much dispute.

In scriptures we see the thief on the cross being promised by Christ 'today you will be with me in Paradise'. Again the time thing is hard to understand.

You didn't mention 'purgatory' This ties in with praying for the dead. Hopefully, none who partake of this tread will sit in the seat of the scoffer

regards

 

[SeraphimH]

Hi SeraphimH,

Interesting to meet an 'orthodox church believer' I think it would be fair to say that the majority of Protestants know even less about the Orthodox Church than they do about the Catholic Church. Though Protestants might not like the word 'tradition' they have a tradition to pray at funerals for the deceased. Some will argue that this does not count - but it is observable in practice at nearly every funeral. As far as I know this Protestant tradition goes back to the 1500's. Parts of the Anglican Church probably still pray for the dead.

One of the main difficulties with dead -- for the deceased, from the point of view of the living, is the realm of time as we know it. God is believed to be outside time - so it make little difference to Him. An even greater problem is that there are different interpretations about what happens to the spirit and soul of man. What happens to the body seems to be clear enough. So again in Protestant ranks there is much dispute.

In scriptures we see the thief on the cross being promised by Christ 'today you will be with me in Paradise'. Again the time thing is hard to understand.

You didn't mention 'purgatory' This ties in with praying for the dead. Hopefully, none who partake of this tread will sit in the seat of the scoffer

regards

Indeed, our God is uncreated and therefore exists outside of time. There is no past or future, only the eternal "now".

The Orthodox Church does not believe in purgatory. Besides, what has forgiveness of sins to do with punishment by fire and tortures? Only one of these two things can happen: either punishment or forgiveness, and not both at once.

The departed righteous live a comfortable and free life in heaven with the angels and God in the Paradise from which Adam fell, and the sinners are in Hades and live with affliction and inconsolable grief like those condemned who await the judge's decision. Neither the righteous nor the sinners obtain the kingdom of Heaven or Hell completely until the Second Coming of Christ.

When Christ returns, the soul rejoins its risen body to be judged by Him. The "good and faithful servant" will inherit eternal life in Heaven, the unfaithful with the unbeliever will spend eternity in Hell. Their sins and their unbelief (passions), not God, will torture them as fire. God will simply love the just and unjust as he does now, for God is love.

 

[Paidion]

If we should pray for the dead because they are not really dead but in heaven or hell, then why not pray TO them too? After all, if you talked with your parents or siblings here on earth, why should you cease to do so because they're dead?

But the scripture forbids us to attempt communication with the dead. For the dead are DEAD. And they'll stay dead until God raises them from death. If we attempt communication with them now, we will be communicating with demons who impersonate them. That's why God forbids it.

 

[Vic C.]

If we should pray for the dead because they are not really dead but in heaven or hell, then why not pray TO them too? After all, if you talked with your parents or siblings here on earth, why should you cease to do so because they're dead?

But the scripture forbids us to attempt communication with the dead. For the dead are DEAD. And they'll stay dead until God raises them from death. If we attempt communication with them now, we will be communicating with demons who impersonate them. That's why God forbids it.

I agree.

Dave, I will answer no and no. We are not to pray for the dead and as the Corinthians found out, we are not to baptize in the names of those who have died either. Why would God not want us to baptize in the name of a dead person but allow us to pray for the dead?

 

[stranger]

If we should pray for the dead because they are not really dead but in heaven or hell, then why not pray TO them too? After all, if you talked with your parents or siblings here on earth, why should you cease to do so because they're dead?

But the scripture forbids us to attempt communication with the dead. For the dead are DEAD. And they'll stay dead until God raises them from death. If we attempt communication with them now, we will be communicating with demons who impersonate them. That's why God forbids it.

Paidon,

Greetings from the living.

Here's the thing and challenge - think back to the last funeral you have been to.

Did you pray for the deceased? Did you say amen when the Pastor prayed for the deceased?

I ask these questions because I am pretty sure most Protestants pray for the dead at funerals but have probably not really talked about it.

blessings

 

[stranger]

If we should pray for the dead because they are not really dead but in heaven or hell, then why not pray TO them too? After all, if you talked with your parents or siblings here on earth, why should you cease to do so because they're dead?

But the scripture forbids us to attempt communication with the dead. For the dead are DEAD. And they'll stay dead until God raises them from death. If we attempt communication with them now, we will be communicating with demons who impersonate them. That's why God forbids it.

I agree.

Dave, I will answer no and no. We are not to pray for the dead and as the Corinthians found out, we are not to baptize in the names of those who have died either. Why would God not want us to baptize in the name of a dead person but allow us to pray for the dead?

Hello Vic,

May as well ask you so I don't show partiality. The question sample of 2 should produce some results.

Think back to the last funeral you have been to.

Did you pray for the deceased? Did you say amen when the Pastor prayed for the deceased?

I ask these questions because I am pretty sure most Protestants pray for the dead at funerals but have probably not really talked about it.

blessings

 

[mutzrein]

Stranger - you didn't ask me but I will let you know that even though I am a live non-catholic and I have been to services for both catholic and protestant dead, I have never knowlingly said 'amen' to anyone praying to or for them. As a matter of fact, I will not say 'amen' to any prayer if I don't entirely agree with it.

 

[follower of Christ]

Should we pray for the dead? Is it Biblical?

Mama always told me not to play with dead folks...

Seriously tho. We see no New Testament practice of praying for the dead, so I dont personally believe its something we need to do or worry about.

 

[follower of Christ]

Hello Vic,

May as well ask you so I don't show partiality. The question sample of 2 should produce some results.

Think back to the last funeral you have been to.

Did you pray for the deceased? Did you say amen when the Pastor prayed for the deceased?

I ask these questions because I am pretty sure most Protestants pray for the dead at funerals but have probably not really talked about it.

blessings

Odd because Ive been to a number of funerals and in none of them did the pastor pray FOR the dead person.
Maybe some do, but I certainly wouldnt say that *I* am praying FOR the dead if the pastor were giving a prayer and tossed something in there about the deceased and I simply given an 'amen' at the end because the rest of the prayer was sincere.
An 'amen' doesnt necessarily mean I agree with every word a pastor says, I assure you
MY amens are directed solely towards God.

 

[follower of Christ]

Hi SeraphimH,

Interesting to meet an 'orthodox church believer' I think it would be fair to say that the majority of Protestants know even less about the Orthodox Church than they do about the Catholic Church. Though Protestants might not like the word 'tradition' they have a tradition to pray at funerals for the deceased. Some will argue that this does not count - but it is observable in practice at nearly every funeral. As far as I know this Protestant tradition goes back to the 1500's. Parts of the Anglican Church probably still pray for the dead.

Im not sure where you are getting your data from, stranger, but having attended a number of protestant funerals and not one where the deceased was prayed FOR in the way that those such as catholics may pray, I have to disagree that protestants, as a whole, practice any such thing.
maybe the Angelican church does, I cant say, but that doesnt speak for the rest of the protestant church.
Praying AT a funeral doesnt necessarily mean that the dead are being prayed FOR.

 

[Vic C.]

Did you pray for the deceased? Did you say amen when the Pastor prayed for the deceased?

I ask these questions because I am pretty sure most Protestants pray for the dead at funerals but have probably not really talked about it.

My Pastor knows better. Proper prayer would consist of praying for the surviving family and friends as they deal with their loss. But many of the RC funeral services I have been to do pray for the dead. The practice comes from the book(s) of Maccabees. The belief of an intermediate state, Purgatory, also comes from Maccabees. IMO, this is a very Hellenistic practice that has crept into some Christian belief systems. Because the Jews did it, should we?

I thought you were Lutheran? Most Prot and non denominational congregations do not pray for the dead. Do the Lutherans practice this?

 

[Vic C.]

Stranger - you didn't ask me but I will let you know that even though I am a live non-catholic and I have been to services for both catholic and protestant dead, I have never knowlingly said 'amen' to anyone praying to or for them. As a matter of fact, I will not say 'amen' to any prayer if I don't entirely agree with it.

Amen to that, Ed. :amen

 

[SeraphimH]

If we should pray for the dead because they are not really dead but in heaven or hell, then why not pray TO them too? After all, if you talked with your parents or siblings here on earth, why should you cease to do so because they're dead?

If one is to be a spiritual person and know Christ as Christ would be known, he must open his heart to these powerful realities. He must live in them. This is why we Orthodox commune with the saints. To be sure, we do not conduct seances, or invoke the intercessions of every departed relative we can think of. We clearly recognize there is such a thing as evil spiritism, which the scriptures speak against. That's why, as in all other things Orthodox, it is the consensus of the Church, not just your opinion or mine, that determines who is worthy of sainthood and veneration. The clear witness of the Holy Spirit among the clergy and laity alike is the key factor here.

But the scripture forbids us to attempt communication with the dead. For the dead are DEAD. And they'll stay dead until God raises them from death. If we attempt communication with them now, we will be communicating with demons who impersonate them. That's why God forbids it.

It's obvious to me that with Christ's conquering of death through His death and Resurrection, that the state of the dead changes! The oddest outcome imaginable would be for Jesus to conquer death, only to have everything about death stay exactly the same as it was before He overcame it! Those who love Christ LIVE in Christ, whether it be here or beyond the grave. We glory in His total victory over the devil and his ultimate weapon, death. Jesus has vanquished death by destroying the barrier between this earthly realm and the spiritual Kingdom--between this world of struggle of the living and our eternal home of the departed. Thus, there is no separation or isolation between the Church visible (militant) and the Church (triumphant) in Heaven. With death's power gone, there is no wall between them.

St. Paul himself intercedes for a departed saint in 2 Timothy 1:16-18. Onesiphorus, a good Christian friend who met the Apostle in Rome, has passed away. St. Paul prays that the Lord will "grant to him that he may find mercy from the Lord in that Day."

 

[Vic C.]

2 Tim 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

Although Paul speaks of Onesiphorus in past tense, there is no indication that Onesiphorus was indeed dead. Maybe he was on his deathbed and Paul, knowing he would not see him again, wished to express his gratification to Onesiphorus in the letter to Timothy.

2 Timothy was also Paul's last letter. He was in prison as he wrote this and most likely knew he was to die shortly... and he did.

When Jesus conquered death, it was the second death that was changed.

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

It is believed by many Christians that the dead know their fate as soon as they die. If this is true, why then would Paul waste time praying if Onesiphorus was already where God intended him to be at his death? His mercy would have already bee attained.

This seems to be the only proof text in the NT concerning the alleged praying for the dead. One verse doesn't make a doctrine anyway and where oral tradition or extra Biblical teaching contradict the Bible, they are to be discarded.

Also, why would Paul rebuke the Corinthians for baptizing on the dead's behalf, but then pray for the dead? That too is a contradiction.

 

[stranger]

duplicate post deleted

 

[stranger]

Vic C wrote:

My Pastor knows better. Proper prayer would consist of praying for the surviving family and friends as they deal with their loss. But many of the RC funeral services I have been to do pray for the dead. The practice comes from the book(s) of Maccabees. The belief of an intermediate state, Purgatory, also comes from Maccabees. IMO, this is a very Hellenistic practice that has crept into some Christian belief systems. Because the Jews did it, should we?

I thought you were Lutheran? Most Prot and non denominational congregations do not pray for the dead. Do the Lutherans practice this?

Technically, but not practically, I am a member of the Lutheran and Reformed churches since I never resigned.

Hi Vic, foC, mutzrein & paidon,

That surprises me --- the guy is cemated or buried but no benediction/prayer is said on his behalf ? The prayer would have the famous words: ''I commend xxxx to Almighty God and thy body to the ground, earth to earth, ashes to ashes, and dust to dust, in the hope of the resurrection '' or variations thereof?

What about the deceased persons 'final journey' even if it is others who carry the casket? Are there no final respects or the last goodbye? Nobody in the US seems to get a decent sendoff!

blessings