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Sinless perfection

electedbyHim

Elected by Him
Calvinism Overseer
I was watching a sermon on holiness today by everyones favorite Pastor John Macarthur.

Anyone who believes that they are sinless in this life should watch this.

The pastor goes on to show the origin of the Holiness (sinless perfection) movement that was popularized by the Weslyians and a certain cult.

Macarthur also goes on to teach how those who believe this false doctrine are really self-deceived.

As usual his sermonsare about an hour long. This is an excellent teaching for all who want to learn what the Bible teaches.

Moderators, if this is not the thread for this topic please move to the appropriate thread.

I figured that this would open up a can of worms.

Grace and peace to you.

 
We are all born with a nature to sin because of the fall of Adam and Eve who introduced sin into the world allowing to fall to Satan's temptation. All have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, that's a fact. But, to those who are of Christ need to get up every morning and crucify this flesh and walk in the Spirit so we do not fulfill the lust of the flesh. No one has to sin like it's some kind of command to do so as it's a freewill choice to fall to the temptations Satan loves to place before us.

Even a Spiritually born again child of God will mess up at times as we are still mortal living in a corruptible fleshly body where the sin nature dwells. Grace does not give us a license to sin, but when we do we have an intercessor (Christ Jesus) before the Father who makes intercession for us and forgives our sin when we repent of them. There will always be a struggle between the flesh and the Spirit and sometimes the flesh will win the battle, but never the war. A Spiritually born again indwelled with the Holy Spirit child of God should never willfully sin like we plan to do so, but yet we see ourselves messing up at times and having to admit to our downfall we need help from God to work on. Does that mean we are no longer God's own, no, it just means we are yet housed in this fleshly body.


Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

1Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 
I was watching a sermon on holiness today by everyones favorite Pastor John Macarthur.

Anyone who believes that they are sinless in this life should watch this.

The pastor goes on to show the origin of the Holiness (sinless perfection) movement that was popularized by the Weslyians and a certain cult.

Macarthur also goes on to teach how those who believe this false doctrine are really self-deceived.

As usual his sermonsare about an hour long. This is an excellent teaching for all who want to learn what the Bible teaches.

Moderators, if this is not the thread for this topic please move to the appropriate thread.

I figured that this would open up a can of worms.

Grace and peace to you.
I don't want to waste an hour hearing what the "world" has been saying for over 2000 years.
Thankfully, God says otherwise..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin." (1 Peter 4:1)
 
I don't want to waste an hour hearing what the "world" has been saying for over 2000 years.
Thankfully, God says otherwise..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin." (1 Peter 4:1)
You should not comment here if you did not watch the video.

I knew you would not watch because you cannot refute it. You fear the truth. Darkness hates the light.

This may get me banned but God's truth is more important than getting banned from a website.

You have taken things to far with your evil doctrine of demons.

You are a self-deceived false teacher. Further more 1 John says you are a liar and the truth is not in you.

If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
 
You should not comment here if you did not watch the video.

I knew you would not watch because you cannot refute it. You fear the truth. Darkness hates the light.
Would that be the same truth that Jesus said could free us from committing sin ? (John 8:32-34)
This may get me banned but God's truth is more important than getting banned from a website.
You have taken things to far with your evil doctrine of demons.
Do you really think demons want people to live obediently before God ?
You are a self-deceived false teacher. Further more 1 John says you are a liar and the truth is not in you.
If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
If He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, why can't we say we have no sin ?

Now, is there sin in the light ?
Remember, God is the light, in 1 John 1:5.
 
Would that be the same truth that Jesus said could free us from committing sin ? (John 8:32-34)

Do you really think demons want people to live obediently before God ?

If He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins, why can't we say we have no sin ?

Now, is there sin in the light ?
Remember, God is the light, in 1 John 1:5.
Watch the video to see your deception and the cult that it grew from.

The Bible and many members have already y
Refuted your lies.

I'm done here.
 
I was watching a sermon on holiness today by everyones favorite Pastor John Macarthur.

Anyone who believes that they are sinless in this life should watch this.

The pastor goes on to show the origin of the Holiness (sinless perfection) movement that was popularized by the Weslyians and a certain cult.

Macarthur also goes on to teach how those who believe this false doctrine are really self-deceived.

As usual his sermonsare about an hour long. This is an excellent teaching for all who want to learn what the Bible teaches.

Moderators, if this is not the thread for this topic please move to the appropriate thread.

I figured that this would open up a can of worms.

Grace and peace to you.

So did Enoch get taken to heaven with sin, of course not. We must be justified and go through sanctification and be cleansed of sin and iniquity, or we will find Christ saying away from Me, at the end...
 
So did Enoch get taken to heaven with sin, of course not. We must be justified and go through sanctification and be cleansed of sin and iniquity, or we will find Christ saying away from Me, at the end...
1 Jn. 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." Hmm.. sin NOT unto death. We are justified (completely, 100%) by FAITH in the Messiah (as Enoch was, with all the OT saints, in their future Messiah). No human being ever was perfect and sinless except Jesus Himself. It is our faith in Him that appropriates His holiness to us. Obedience to law does NOT make us holy. If it did, "then Christ died needlessly."

But in regard to sanctification, there is always room for improvement. Anyone who has "parked" himself on the idea that he is sinlessly perfect is sadly mistaken, because the "I'm now perfect" idea always results in self-righteous pride. This makes the one who thinks he is perfect a sinner. It's self-defeating. The moment I think I'm perfect is the moment I think I no longer need a Savior. Perhaps I think I can save another, then having a messiah complex. Are those who claim to be sinless the elite of Christians who can lord it over others? It's another result - cult leading. One could go on and on telling of the many paths to corruption with this doctrine of sinless perfection. John Wesley who taught this false idea admitted at the end of his life that he never attained to it.
 
What is sin?
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Matt 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Isn't sin failure to obey God's commandments.

Who can honestly say that they currently obey these commands.
That they concentrate more on these commands than on their wife, job, hobbies etc etc.
 
1 Jn. 5:17 "All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death." Hmm.. sin NOT unto death. We are justified (completely, 100%) by FAITH in the Messiah (as Enoch was, with all the OT saints, in their future Messiah). No human being ever was perfect and sinless except Jesus Himself. It is our faith in Him that appropriates His holiness to us. Obedience to law does NOT make us holy. If it did, "then Christ died needlessly."

But in regard to sanctification, there is always room for improvement. Anyone who has "parked" himself on the idea that he is sinlessly perfect is sadly mistaken, because the "I'm now perfect" idea always results in self-righteous pride. This makes the one who thinks he is perfect a sinner. It's self-defeating. The moment I think I'm perfect is the moment I think I no longer need a Savior. Perhaps I think I can save another, then having a messiah complex. Are those who claim to be sinless the elite of Christians who can lord it over others? It's another result - cult leading. One could go on and on telling of the many paths to corruption with this doctrine of sinless perfection. John Wesley who taught this false idea admitted at the end of his life that he never attained to it.
That is how we are cleansed of all unrighteousness, and reach sinless perfection, ready to come before God..
 
What is sin?
Deut 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength.
Matt 22:
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Isn't sin failure to obey God's commandments.

Who can honestly say that they currently obey these commands.
That they concentrate more on these commands than on their wife, job, hobbies etc etc.
To answer your question, John defines sin clearly:
1 Jn. 3:4 "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."
Lawlessness in the context of scripture is rebellious disobedience to God's commands, which is hate for God and His people. Loving God means keeping His commandments: 1 Jn. 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and follow His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."
 
That is how we are cleansed of all unrighteousness, and reach sinless perfection, ready to come before God..
1. So then, can you please define "sinless perfection" as you understand it?
2. Then, how do you deal with 1 Jn. 1:8, James 3:2a, Rom. 8:10, and Rom. 7:23-25?
 
So did Enoch get taken to heaven with sin, of course not. We must be justified and go through sanctification and be cleansed of sin and iniquity, or we will find Christ saying away from Me, at the end...
"...away from Me ye that work iniquity! "
 
SINLESS PERFECTION ORIGIN

  • Early Christian Teachings: The concept of sinless perfectionism has its roots in early Christian theology, particularly in the writings of Origen (c. 185-254 AD) and the Desert Fathers (3rd-5th centuries AD). They emphasized the possibility of attaining a state of spiritual perfection through ascetic practices and intense devotion to God.
  • John Wesley and Keswick Movement: In the 18th century, John Wesley and the Keswick Movement revived the idea of sinless perfectionism. Wesley taught that believers could attain a state of entire sanctification, where they would be completely freed from sin’s dominion and live a life of sinless perfection. This teaching was influential in shaping the Holiness Movement and the Pentecostal/Charismatic traditions.
  • 19th-20th Centuries: The Keswick teachings on sinless perfection were further developed and popularized by authors like Andrew Murray, R.A. Torrey, and A.J. Gordon. These writers emphasized the importance of abiding in Christ and the possibility of living a life without conscious sin.
  • Critique and Rejection: However, many theologians and pastors have critiqued and rejected the doctrine of sinless perfectionism, arguing that it is unbiblical and ignores the reality of ongoing sin in the believer’s life. The Reformed and Lutheran traditions have been particularly vocal in their rejection of this doctrine, emphasizing instead the ongoing struggle with sin and the need for ongoing repentance and faith.
Key Biblical Passages

  • Ephesians 4:13 - until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the full knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ,
  • Romans 7:14-24 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, having been sold into bondage under sin. For what I am working out, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate. But if I do the very thing I do not want, I agree with the Law, that it is good. So now, no longer am I the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the working out of the good is not. For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want. But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one working it out, but sin which dwells in me. I find then the principle that in me evil is present—in me who wants to do good. For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in my members, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a captive to the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from the body of this death?
  • 2 Corinthians 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.
  • Titus 2:11-14 - For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us that, denying ungodliness and worldly desires, we should live sensibly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us that He might redeem us from all lawlessness, and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good works.
Conclusion

The origin of sinless perfectionism can be traced back to early Christian teachings, particularly in the writings of Origen and the Desert Fathers. The doctrine was revived and popularized in the 18th century through the Keswick Movement and the teachings of John Wesley. However, many theologians and pastors have critiqued and rejected this doctrine, emphasizing instead the ongoing struggle with sin and the need for ongoing repentance and faith.

Cultures promoting moral absolutism and the pursuit of flawlessness, without acknowledging human imperfection.

The sinless perfection cult refers to a theological movement that claims it is possible for Christians to achieve complete victory over sin and live a life of perfect holiness, free from any intentional or unintentional sin, in this life. This doctrine is often associated with a misunderstanding of biblical teachings on sanctification and the Christian life.

Scriptural Refutations

Several passages in the Bible refute the idea of sinless perfectionism. For example, John the apostle, who wrote 1 John, explicitly acknowledges his own sinfulness (1 John 1:8-10). Similarly, Paul writes that he struggles with sin and temptation (Romans 7:14-25). These passages demonstrate that even the most devoted Christians continue to struggle with sin and imperfection.

Critiques of Sinless Perfectionism

Critics of sinless perfectionism argue that it:

  • Overlooks the ongoing struggle with sin (Romans 7:14-25)
  • Ignores the role of the Holy Spirit in empowering believers to live holy lives, rather than achieving perfect holiness through human effort (Galatians 3:3)
  • Fosters legalism and moralism, rather than emphasizing grace and faith (Galatians 3:10-14)
  • Disregards the intercessory role of Christ as our Advocate before God (1 John 2:1-2)


Conclusion


The sinless perfection cult is a theological error that misunderstands the nature of sin, sanctification, and the Christian life. The Bible teaches that while Christians are called to strive for holiness and obedience, they will continue to struggle with sin and imperfection until glorification. A more balanced and biblical understanding of the Christian life emphasizes the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit, the struggle with sin, and the gracious provision of Christ as our Advocate.


Churches that promote sinless perfection

Holiness Church
Church of God-- Some
United Pentecostal Church
Nazarene Church
Four Square Gospel
Wesleyan Methodist Church
Apostolic Holiness Church
Church of God in Christ
There are many more
 
So you are sinless as well?

You never sin?
The road of sanctification takes you to be perfect before God, otherwise you perish. The Bible is clear on that and Christ will say it at His coming to those still with iniquity and sin in their lives...
 
To answer your question, John defines sin clearly:
1 Jn. 3:4 "Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness."
Lawlessness in the context of scripture is rebellious disobedience to God's commands, which is hate for God and His people. Loving God means keeping His commandments: 1 Jn. 5:2-3 "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and follow His commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome."
I thought I'd clearly identified what sin is.
 
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