So who's been lying?

[wavy]

I'm a seeker for truth. I'm looking for answers from all viewpoints. I do believe in Torah observance, but if this turns out to be untrue my ways will be changed. But how does one with a traditional interpretation of the New Testament concerning the "law" reconcile these things?

(seemingly contradictions contrasted with red and blue text):


BONDAGE OR NOT BONDAGE?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Galatians 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.


Psalm 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psalm 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

(also note that if the Torah is bondage, יהוה did not deliver Israel from slavery and bondage when he took them from Egypt, but merely reenslaved them with another form of bondage when he brought them to Sinai)

HOLY/JUST/GOOD/SPIRITUAL OR ENMITY?

Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

(take note that Torah was for the native Israelite and the stranger that joined Israel, so it did not separate Jew from Gentile)

FULFILLED/MADE THE MOST OF OR DECAYING/VANISHING AWAY?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

(take note that the prophets are mentioned here also and must be fulfilled the same way Torah is. should we not read the prophets or hold them of any value or are they not applicable and no longer tell us of the future since it is all "fulfilled"?)

CIRCUMCISION OR NO CIRCUMCISION

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Acts 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

(take note that if circumcision was ultimately forbidden according to Paul then Timothy was alienated from Christ because Paul, who supposedly forbade circumcision, circumcised him)

DOES NOT BREAK TORAH AS A LIFESTYLE OR ONLY KEPT IT TO WIN JEWS?

Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

(take note that Paul is already a Jew)

ESTABLISHED OR MADE VOID

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

(take note that the word for "void" in the romans passage and the word for "done away" in the corinthians passage is the same: strong's #2673, katargeo)

There are countless more. Seems we need some clarification. How do you reconcile these things?

 

[stovebolts]

Wavy,
I don't know you very well. (I havn't followed many of your posts) but I do get a sense in what your looking for as I was (am) a babe in Christ seeking solid food. Let me give you some advice while you seek.

Open minds are like open windows; you have to put in screens to keep the bugs out.

It's not a bad thing to be open minded and seek for truth in scripture, what's makes it bad, is when you seek after your desires or rather your will. As far as the OT laws, they are no different than what was told to Adam and Eve when they were told, "Don't eat of that tree"... Knowledge can be learned from two different ways. Listening and obeying or from experience and discpline. The knowledge was always there, it's just the means in which we learn from it. When eve ate of the forbidden fruit, she learned by experience... and we are still doing so...

If your truly seeking for truth, sit back and just read your Bible. Start with Genesis and go to at least 2nd Kings before you crack the gospels in the NT... Then, start at Matthew and just read the letters as if they were written to you. In other words, let the scriptures speak for themselves, then study them. You can't study them, before you read (hear) them.

 

[wavy]

Open minds are like open windows; you have to put in screens to keep the bugs out.

So true...

It's not a bad thing to be open minded and seek for truth in scripture, what's makes it bad, is when you seek after your desires or rather your will.

Also true.

As far as the OT laws, they are no different than what was told to Adam and Eve when they were told, "Don't eat of that tree"...

Read something like this from the little links at the top of the pages of these forums. I highly disagree and think that interpretation is abstract.

Of course, I could be misunderstanding what you are saying...

If your truly seeking for truth, sit back and just read your Bible. Start with Genesis and go to at least 2nd Kings before you crack the gospels in the NT... Then, start at Matthew and just read the letters as if they were written to you. In other words, let the scriptures speak for themselves, then study them. You can't study them, before you read (hear) them.

All true. I am doing this presently. Most people do not heed this, however. They are satisfied with church.

 

[stovebolts]

Of course, I could be misunderstanding what you are saying...

Well, considering I only wrote a half a paragraph on the subject and didn't leave any scriptural references... I appreciate your honesty and ability to leave the door open.

FYI, I purchased the Bible on CD (NIV dramatized version from Zondervan) and I usually listen to them for about 2 1/2 - 3hrs. a day during my commute to and from work. (I'm off of work until next year). Deut and Lev really came to life for me and I got more out of listining to them, than reading it. From there, I went to Romans and things really started popping out of the woodwork for me.

We all learn different ways and for me, listening to them on cd affords me the opportunity to NOT study them. In doing so, the context becomes much clearer as the essence becomes more apparent. Too often I think we (I) study ourselves out of context and loose our ability to comprehend what is really being said.

Anyway, sorry for sidetracking your thread. I can't give you direct answers because I don't have the time to write all my thoughts on all the matters that you have brought up. That being said, I hope what worked for me, will help you resolve some of the things your struggling with.

 

[wavy]

No big deal about the sidetracking.

But don't leave me with nothing. At least reconcile one. Surely you can take one of these contradictions and give me your thoughts as to how they are not contradictions in as little words possible.

 

[stovebolts]

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

(take note that the word for "void" in the romans passage and the word for "done away" in the corinthians passage is the same: strong's #2673, katargeo)

Short and sweet, yet soo soo incomplete...

Context... Part of the way I understand both verses point to the same thing from a different perspective. (rightousness) To reconcille these verses, you need to understand the will of God. Keep in mind that man was made in the image of God.

In the OT laws, it showed who was God's choosen and that's what made it so glorious because it showed ownership and distinction. (At the end of Lev., God tells us that the Isrealites would take the promise land not because of their rightousness, but because of the wickeness outside of Isreal)
Faith established the Law because faith points toward hope. In Romans, Paul writes about the Promise through Abraham and brings to light exactly what faith is and who the promise was through. It was faith that made Abraham rightous and all this was before the seal of circumsism. As a result, if the law was a seal of rightousness, how much more rightous are we through Christ for Christ is our true seal.

 

[Windozer]

Keep in mind that man was made in the image of God.

Adam was created in the image of God... After the fall... mankind have been born in the image of Adam. That is why it was necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin.

Something to think about.

 

[wavy]

I can certainly see what you are saying, Stoves. However, I think there is an easier way to reconcile it.

The 3rd chapter of Corinthians is speaking of the glory on Moses' face (2 Corinthians 3:7) as a result of receiving the Torah on stones. Simply kal va'chomer (Hebraic principle meaning "light and heavy"):

If what was written on stones that condemned was glorious so that Moses' face shown (light), how much more glorious is the work of the Spirit which writes on the heart and gives life (heavy)?

Nothing to do with the manner in how we keep Torah or a doing away with the commandments. But everything to do with glory. The key is how, unlike parts of unbelieving Israel, we should realize the greater glory of this ministry (Ezekiel 36:26-27) and accept it rather than reject Messiah and the Spirit.

We establish Torah through faith because Abraham's example of faith is found in the Torah (which he indicates in the next chapter as a continuation of Romans 3:31). He believed first and was justified, then received circumcision as a sign of his justification and faith and the righteousness imputed to him.

According to Romans 4:12, we take these same steps.

 

[greyfeather]

wavy,

I remember the first time I read the following verses , they confused me then as to if we are to keep the laws. I know Jesus said he was there to fullfil the law, but the other 2 verses following still makes me wonder why he said what he did. I still ask is he saying what it looks so clearly to me at least he is saying , and that is tthe laws remain and are to be followed till heaven and earth pass away.

Matthew 5:17-19

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[wavy]

wavy,

I remember the first time I read the following verses , they confused me then as to if we are to keep the laws. I know Jesus said he was there to fullfil the law, but the other 2 verses following still makes me wonder why he said what he did. I still ask is he saying what it looks so clearly to me at least he is saying , and that is tthe laws remain and are to be followed till heaven and earth pass away.

Matthew 5:17-19

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Yes, indeed. We have to understand the word plerosai, used for "fulfill".

From an English, modern context, "fulfill" is used in the context of like:

The prophet said: "John will cut the grass".

*(John cuts the grass)*

John says: "The prophecy is fulfilled."

Meaning John cut the grass and now the grass does not need to be cut. But we get this only from the English translation "fulfilled". The Greek word encompasses much more (although it can be used this way).

 

[stovebolts]

Keep in mind that man was made in the image of God.

Adam was created in the image of God... After the fall... mankind have been born in the image of Adam. That is why it was necessary for Jesus to be born of a virgin.

Something to think about.

I've heard that before...and I don't want to think too much on that, but it is a good think. Thanks for bringing it up.

Wavy, you kind of confused me for a second (calling something a contradiction, then defending that it wasn't a contradiction) and sorry I had to run. I should be around for a couple hrs. this morning, then back early next weeks sometime.

Anyway, when I look at the glory mentioned here (the ones written on the stones), I see it as a seal for His people that He let out of Egypt. Kinda like Hallmark card, He cared to send the very best when your beloved is sick :wink:

As far as the glory on Moses' face, I always took that as from being in the presence of God for 40 days. After all, Moses was on Mt. Sinai for 40 days without food or water and truly lived on the Word of God. (Exodus 34:28)

Now, maybe you can answer this for me. Many places in the OT (including with Moses) they use a rock / stone as a witness (testimony)(Genesis 28, Joshua 24:27...etc, ) for the generations to come. The thing is, were talking Exodus 34 here, yet the covenant was made in chapter 29:39-46. Now, the Israelites had the ordinances so what was the purpose of the testimony? Well, we know that they were given to idols made of both gold and stone (Ex 32) when they already had the tabernacle which was the place where man could meet with God.

So really, God had established his covenant and had established a dwelling place where man could join in fellowship with God (kinda like Adam and Eve) and man still couldn't get it right. So really, in a way the stones as a witness stood to condemn, rather than to save because of their disobedience.

Anyway, I don’t want to write a book here. Let me know what you think and well go from there.

 

[Heidi]

I'm a seeker for truth. I'm looking for answers from all viewpoints. I do believe in Torah observance, but if this turns out to be untrue my ways will be changed. But how does one with a traditional interpretation of the New Testament concerning the "law" reconcile these things?

(seemingly contradictions contrasted with red and blue text):


BONDAGE OR NOT BONDAGE?

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Galatians 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.


Psalm 111:7 The works of his hands are verity and judgment; all his commandments are sure.
Psalm 111:8 They stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness.

(also note that if the Torah is bondage, יהוה did not deliver Israel from slavery and bondage when he took them from Egypt, but merely reenslaved them with another form of bondage when he brought them to Sinai)

HOLY/JUST/GOOD/SPIRITUAL OR ENMITY?
[quote:d3c08]Romans 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

(take note that Torah was for the native Israelite and the stranger that joined Israel, so it did not separate Jew from Gentile)

FULFILLED/MADE THE MOST OF OR DECAYING/VANISHING AWAY?

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

(take note that the prophets are mentioned here also and must be fulfilled the same way Torah is. should we not read the prophets or hold them of any value or are they not applicable and no longer tell us of the future since it is all "fulfilled"?)

CIRCUMCISION OR NO CIRCUMCISION

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.


Acts 16:3 Him would Paul have to go forth with him; and took and circumcised him because of the Jews which were in those quarters: for they knew all that his father was a Greek.

(take note that if circumcision was ultimately forbidden according to Paul then Timothy was alienated from Christ because Paul, who supposedly forbade circumcision, circumcised him)

DOES NOT BREAK TORAH AS A LIFESTYLE OR ONLY KEPT IT TO WIN JEWS?

Acts 28:17 And it came to pass, that after three days Paul called the chief of the Jews together: and when they were come together, he said unto them, Men and brethren, though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers, yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.

Philippians 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.


1 Corinthians 9:20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;

(take note that Paul is already a Jew)

ESTABLISHED OR MADE VOID

Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


2 Corinthians 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

(take note that the word for "void" in the romans passage and the word for "done away" in the corinthians passage is the same: strong's #2673, katargeo)

There are countless more. Seems we need some clarification. How do you reconcile these things?[/quote:d3c08]

Wavy, Jesus said we have one teacher and that is the Christ. Christ existed in the flesh and now exists in the form of the Holy Spirit. The bible was also written from the Holy Spirit. So the HS inside true believers and the bible will always agree. You need to read the NT which completes the OT and you will understand that Christ fulfilled the Torah for us and now we come to Him for redemption instead of to the law itself. That's what Paul means by no longer being under the law but under Grace.

Since the Jews do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for them, they are still a slave to having to obey the law by themselves which is impossible. The Jews are still also, only flesh and blood. But Paul says that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said in John 4:23, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." Once you receive the Holy Spirit, you will understand how the New Convenant fulfills the Old Covenant. Now all we need is Christ in the form of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said will lead us into all truth.

 

[wavy]

Christ existed in the flesh and now exists in the form of the Holy Spirit.

I disagree with this, but this is not the topic at hand. I was just making this clear (no big deal, irrelevant).

You need to read the NT which completes the OT and you will understand that Christ fulfilled the Torah for us and now we come to Him for redemption instead of to the law itself. That's what Paul means by no longer being under the law but under Grace.

Well, I hear he "fulfilled" the Torah all the time. As to what I believe this means? Check "wavy's views". :-D (my signature)

Also, we were never supposed to come to the Torah for redemption. Also, "under the law" in it's literal Greek form lacks the definite article "the". So it is properly "under law", meaning any form of legislation. Not that we break law in general (Romans 3:31, Romans 6:1-2, Romans 6:15-16), but that "law" is not the how we are justified. Grace (a gift of free forgiveness and favor; Romans 4:6-8, Psalm 32:1-2) is how we are justified.

Since the Jews do not believe that Jesus fulfilled the law for them, they are still a slave to having to obey the law by themselves which is impossible.

"Impossible" is not an issue with Torah. Where your heart is at is the issue with Torah. And if the heart is not right, the Torah is broken, hence the need for a Redeemer. Sin (1 John 3:4, Romans 14:23) is what enslaves us, not the Torah. We need freedom from sin (being under law).

The Jews are still also, only flesh and blood. But Paul says that flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus said in John 4:23, "Yet a time is coming and has now come when the worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks." Once you receive the Holy Spirit, you will understand how the New Convenant fulfills the Old Covenant. Now all we need is Christ in the form of the Holy Spirit which Jesus said will lead us into all truth.

Yeah, I used to say the same thing. But this only works if you can explain (scripturally) how the law (and prophets) have been fulfilled (people always want to drop the "prophets" part...)

 

[wavy]

Wavy, you kind of confused me for a second (calling something a contradiction, then defending that it wasn't a contradiction)

Oh, haha!

I knew it wasn't a contradiction. I was just wondering how other people don't see it as a contradiction. If they offer something better than I can, then I'll be subject to change. This is how I learn and grow. I debate. :-D

The thing is, were talking Exodus 34 here, yet the covenant was made in chapter 29:39-46.

The covenant was made in Exodus 29:39-46? Could you explain this to me?

Now, the Israelites had the ordinances so what was the purpose of the testimony? Well, we know that they were given to idols made of both gold and stone (Ex 32) when they already had the tabernacle which was the place where man could meet with God.

So really, God had established his covenant and had established a dwelling place where man could join in fellowship with God (kinda like Adam and Eve) and man still couldn't get it right. So really, in a way the stones as a witness stood to condemn, rather than to save because of their disobedience.

I think you may be on to something here. The only thing I don't know exactly what you are trying to say is the covenant written on stones being found in Exodus 29:39-46, so if you could explain that to me...

Anyway, I had a short, small theory on the purpose of the stone tablets. See, The Ten Commandments Alone?

 

[stovebolts]

wavy,

bummer it's so late in the day and I just noticed that you posted a reply. First, thank you for not 'debating' me. I'm extreemly sick of apologetics I'd rather let you beleive whatever you believe than to argue about it. Also, I appreciate the way you responded. It makes for a condusive thread.

so, since I've running on borrowed time...

I'm not sure about the symbology that rocks or stones had. I don't really know why they stood up rocks as pillars to testify for this or that. I kind of have a notion that the people of the day knew that rocks were like really old and that they would be around for a long long time. I also have a notion that they thought that rocks had some sense of rightousness. (maybe I'm stretching this a tad).

Anyway, If you look at why the comandments were written, it was because the Isrealites wouldn't move away from idols and false gods. This seems to be a problem that is still with us today. But here's what strikes me as odd. Here, we have STONE tablets with God's commands written on them... and where do they go? They go in an ark and then in the back room in total darkness and for what? So that unauthorized eyes wouldn't be able to see it...

anyway, gotta run. Sorry to cut this short I'm getting yelled at....