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soem research on moses.

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peace4all

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Hey there all. I have bneen doin a bit o research on moses, and the miracles along with, And I have decided to research a diffrent way, before fomring an opinion and argument.

Normally, I would go read atheist/agnostic, or not really too christian sites, and then form my opinion.

Since I realize this is one sided and unfair, I had this idea.

Can anyone here, use evidence from anything (primarily not biblical, I have a bible, and can read those chapters on my own) about moses?

Also, some interesting thigns I really want to dwell into as a mian subject here, is the diffrence between the Red sea, and the Reed sea.

If anyone here has any good articles on moses, or any beliefs they would like to share, I think that would be cool.

Its always better to get both sides of a story, instead of just one right>
 
well, that is why I am asking, Because I am trying to get any info I can on him, and so farm, I have the bible, and then a ton of evidence that he didn't exist/ didnt perform any miracles/plagues.
 
Didn't exist? ooooookkkkaaayyyyyy :-D

Anyway, if your serious about researching Moses, you should check out the plagues in Egypt. It's no coincidence that each plague took out an Egyption god that ruled in that specific domain. In other words, they weren't random plagues, but rather targeted for a specific purpose from the snake, to the death of the first born.

Happy hunting :D
 
I think your question was first directed at me. I first heard of this a few years ago when I read a book called "Men of the Promise" by Edward E. Hindson. It was pretty neat and an eye opener for sure.

I searched google and came up with this site. It's pretty cool. Enjoy :D


[url said:
http://padfieldconsulting.com/history/egypt-plagues-1.html[/url]]These plagues were not just against Pharaoh and his people, but also "against all the gods of Egypt" (Exo. 12:12). Every one of the plagues was a direct insult to the gods of Egypt. It has been my observation that many people study the plagues and focus only on the plague itself, and totally ignore that fact that these plagues were directed "against all the gods of Egypt" (Exo. 12:12).
At the bottom of the page, you can download a detailed pdf.

http://www.padfield.com/acrobat/history ... _egypt.pdf
 
Thanks StoveBolts, i´ll take a look at that link, but my question was directed to Peace4all:

, and then a ton of evidence that he didn't exist/ didnt perform any miracles/plagues.

I would like to hear some of those so called evidences...
 
The bible, is the ONLY book, only text that says moses existed. There is no archeological evidence, of someone wandering a desert for 40 years. especially so many people wandering the desert. They would leave some trace. there is no way the wouldn't... (not to mention, why would god magically let hundreds wander the desert and live, but force them to wander for 40 years)

There are other pieces of scripture, writing etc, that say jesus existed. Even evidence of a possible flood that A king (i cant pronounce his name exactly) in summaria climbed upon a barge with some animals, and floated down the flooded valley and hence, people said he was noah..

Saying that the bible is true, because it says moses existed, and Moses says the bible is true, doesnt work. ITs like saying "this stone says that the sky is green. IT says that peace4all said that, and since this stone said that peace4all said it, it has to be right"

Even christian scholoars sometiems agree that they did not corss the "red" see, but the "reed sea" which is a small marsh that, with the right winds, is dry as can be... Making moses's journey... Not a miracle..
 
Ok. It makes sense... But you don´t have an evidence that he didn´t exist, what you have is no evidence that he existed, right?

Anyway, i understand and respect your point of view. I myself, give a lot of importance to archeological knowledge in this field. But in this case... You know, we just have nothing but the bible... What to do them?
 
Even christian scholoars sometiems agree that they did not corss the "red" see, but the "reed sea" which is a small marsh that, with the right winds, is dry as can be... Making moses's journey... Not a miracle..

Where on earth do you get your information from? :silly:


why would god magically let hundreds wander the desert and live, but force them to wander for 40 years)

They were a stubborn people. They were use to worshipping pagan gods as many of them were allowing themselves to be mixed with the Egyptians pagan ways. Even though Moses brought them guidelines to live by and the 10 commandments, they were a troubled/stubborn people who were set in their ways being easily influenced by the simple attraction of man made gods. NOT one of them crossed over the Jordan. The next generation did that.

40 years is how long it took for a generation of people to change their ways.


If you will notice..... there is a lesson about "generations" of people there.


Try taking some (basic) bible lessons. :) You just may learn something about the difference between selfish human nature and the power of the "holy" spirit . God's will vs. selfish mans will. Man cannot serve two masters, the hebrews were a stubborn people.
It took a long time for just a few of them to overcome the imbedded habits of the previous generation, then ways of the past generation, by giving honor and Glory to JHVH GD instead of "wandering off" (pun intended) to giving themselves over to the "influence" of the 400 years of being amongst the Egyptians and their pagan man made gods. And so, there is yet another lesson about "peer pressure". (Lot's family were influenced by the Sodomites... but they overcame that sinful influence, except Lot's wife. she looked back (stuck in the memory of it! she enclosed herself in it. Being distracted! She turned to stone! Frozen in it. "stuck" unwilling to remove herself from the attraction of it. (Not to say if she actually participated in that specific sin? Iim not sure if she did or not. but the lesson is clear! The behaviors and the mindset will deceive if you refuse to look to the "Holy" "spirit" and walk away from sin. ) ) That's another "relative" lesson .



OY! the skeptics will reed (read) into things where they need not! :roll:

Some people would rather try to disprove some historic fact about some material manifestation than gain a valuable lesson about the Holy Spirit vs. the carnal minds of men. :-?

When you read the bible from a spiritual stance in wanting to "know" God by having a "personal" relationship with Him, then you will start to see some light at the end that dark tunnel you keep walking in.

Oh, the stubbornness of man. Wanting to challenge the Holy Spirit of God instead of wanting to Know the Holy Spirit of God. :sad
For Shame, Don't you know... the Holy Spirit will always reveal the foolishness of man?
The first five books of the bible clearly teach about the foolishness of man. But what do the skeptics do? They miss so much by trying to disprove God, instead of trying to Know God through having a "personal" relationship with Him. What a crying shame. :crying:

You can continue to "challenge" all you want. But it is when you acquire a "desire" to "know" the Holy Spirit" and the Words of God that are telling people how stupid and stubborn they have behaved, then you will see. In the bible, God is, through the truth of the Holy Spirit, constantly telling people to change their evil ways. To stop following after false gods and pagan ways of men that serve only to lead them into the ways of deception. God is a loving God who wants to protect and teach people to come out of their wretched past behaviors into a new "born again" Holy spirit. To follow His Holy Will instead of walking around unconscious to what consequences are in front of them.


It's the spirit of things to come which you are going to miss it if you continue to hate the conviction of the Holy Sprit. So many people return to prison because they refuse to allow the conviction change them from out of the past. So many people are stuck in a rut in life because they refuse to "cross" over to following the "Holy" Spirit. Christ Jesus is the Only way, the Only Truth and the Only Life/Light you need to follow and learn to understand. Stay skeptical by refusing to befriend the Holy Spirit of God and you will continue to not be able to understand the concept of walking on the water, or the parting of any sea. See? It is a shallow view is all you see. :-?


That fact remains, if you don't want to accept the fact that God creates miracles , then you will miss out on the many hidden truths in the bible! Crossing the RED Sea is also very symbolic. The material fact and experience of crossing over it is a miracle that is only the tip of the iceberg (so to speak) . There is so much more you are not seeing here. And if you focus on the material what will that prove? That you can't out smart God! God's word does not lie!.

If, in our lifetime, there comes a gigantic tsunami http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4125481.stm that can swallow up whole islands don't you think God can part a sea the size of the Red sea? Really! You need to get real. :roll:



We will not understand all the ways in which God reveals things to us, but I'll tell you, the more you study and learn the bible the more you will be in AWE of GOD! Even the numbers relative to time periods of behaviors are mind blowing and will astound you, putting you in AWE OF GOD! But you refuse to choose to befriend God, instead, you keep a distance from having a close relationship with Him. You prefer the words of skeptics rather than the words and messages of the Holy Spirit. :sad So sad.


You can try to change and confuse the word of God all you want, but those who are wanting to have a personal relationship with God and wanting to know the character of God will always see the foolishness of the skeptics.

You can either study the foolishness of men or you can choose to study the wisdom of the Lord God. Man cannot nor will man ever be able to teach you nearly as much as the Holy Spirit can! Why do you refuse to accept to be a friend of the "Holy Spirit" ? You constantly pick the opposing side of truth and so, your skepticism is leading you astray. Befriend God and listen to His Word as you would a "loving" father who teaches you right from wrong, hate from love and truth from a lie. Man will always let you down and disappoint you. But The Holy Spirit of God the Father will not! You need to seek Him out as Jesus Christ taught us to know him is to know the Father. But you want to remain stuck on some technicality that some skeptics throw in front of you. :roll:

.
 
Very good post Relic.

Now Mr. Peace4All, you are a hairs distance away from repentance... go ahead, take the gift, it costs you nothing except pride. I dare ya, I double dog dare ya... c'mon now, say the prayer and be baptized into Christ for the forgivness of you sins. A new life awaits you, if you will only answer the call.

John 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If you knew the gift of God, and who it is that said to you, Give me to drink; you would have asked of him, and he would have given you living water.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will eat with him, and he with me.
 
If, in our lifetime, there comes a gigantic tsunami http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4125481.stm that can swallow up whole islands don't you think God can part a sea the size of the Red sea? Really! You need to get real.

A tsunami can be explained through science, and plate tectonics earthquakes etc, as to how they are created. Seperating water, is.. well, Impossible.. In the name of science.

I guess I have to admit, I do not have proof he didnt exist, rather I have no proof that He did.

as for the read red sea

Did Moses really part the waters of
the Red Sea?
One of the Old Testament's most famous stories is that of Moses parting the waters of the Red Sea. But biblical historians continue to debate exactly how, and where, Moses led the Israelites out of their clutches of the wrathful Egyptians. Two theories have been put forward, both involving the unusual geography of the region.

These days a strip of water runs between mainland Egypt and the Sinai desert - the Suez Canal. However, before the canal was built 150 years ago the area would have been quite different: shallow lakes and marshes, then known as the Great Reed Sea. One theory is that Moses didn't cross the Red Sea at all; it was the Reed Sea - easy to for 'waters to part' because it's not so deep - and the confusion stems from a mistranslation in the Saint James' Bible.

Other scholars have taken a more scientific approach and found - through seismic studies - that the sea floor rises at a certain point between Egypt and Saudi Arabia: a land bridge. Could this have been Moses' crossing point?

On either side, large cracks extend down to almost 5,000 feet. But the bridge itself is nearly a kilometre wide - plenty of space for the thousands of Israelites. Divers have even found the remains of chariot wheels in this area, which Egyptologists have been dated to 1500 BC - about the right time for Moses' Exodus.

Doubt still remains about the validity of the claim: there's very little other evidence of Moses' existence in the Sinai desert at all. But the debate reinforces Egypt's status as a land of biblical mystery.
http://www.yogatravel.co.uk/Redseamoses.htm

The original Hebrew Bible describes the place where the Israelites crossed out of Egypt as Yam Suph – “The Reed Seaâ€Â. This may have been the old name for Lake Manzala on the Mediterranean coast at the extreme northeast of Egypt: a shallow lake that was covered by reeds. Its modern name is somewhat misleading as it is actually open to the sea in places, now crossed by bridges. However, this was not always the case. In ancient times, when sea levels were lower, it was divided from the Mediterranean by a narrow ridge of dry land some thirty miles long, broken by a short stretch of water at high tide. At low tide this became a causeway that could be crossed on foot.
http://www.grahamphillips.net/mountain/search7.htm
Tons of sites with evidence about the mistranslation :-P
I mean, reed, red.. its one extra letter, and is VERY easy to accidently add. Especially if during the translation, the Red sea now existed, and the Reed sea no longer did due to the suez canal.
 
A tsunami can be explained through science, and plate tectonics earthquakes etc, as to how they are created. Seperating water, is.. well, Impossible.. In the name of science.

A miracle is by definition an unprecedented event.

There's a book by Velikovskiy (a wishful author) that attempts to explain this mishap through the planet Venus coming very close to Earth, which according to him explained the days of darkness, and the plagues were the dust particles from the comet, soon to be planet's tail. Even in my high conspiracy days, I never believed that crackpot, but he sure did make a point about the Exodus being real.

The Red Sea is a misinterpretation from the reed sea, which has reeds. The Black Sea is called like that because when the ancient Greeks discovered it, they realized that it turns very dark, almost black during a storm.

The Dead Sea is 'dead' because it has so much salt in it, you can read a newspaper in it without soaking the paper, yet still be laying down! (I've seen a picture, no lie)

Aegean sea is called such because Aegeus' son Theseus set out to kill the mythical beast, the Minotaur. He told his dad that his wife would return with a black sail if he failed, but if he had succeeded he would return with a white one. According to Greek mythology when Theseus went to Crete he killed the Minotaur, but when he sailed back home he forgot to change the sail (bummer). Seeing this, his dad was so sad, he threw himself in the Aegean sea.

I don't know the rest.

===================================================
It's for sure that Moses wrote the first 5 books of Genesis. There's the JDEP theory, that claims that the other four books were composed over a series of years by people other than Moses, but if you look at the verse styles, they match throughout all 5 books (If you need proof, I'll dig up the verses).

There's evidence either way. Many people mentioned in the Bible have been confirmed by archaeology.

In order for the Israelites to go out of Egypt and to the promised land, this won't happen over time, it has to happen instantaneously. This would of course encourage the Egyptians to use military force. A whole army being wiped. Doesn't seem impossible to me. The German sixth army was surrounded at Stalingrad, so why should a miracle by God be impossible?

I don't think you should focus on every individual, and the lack of evidence beyond doubt would make you assume they never existed.
 
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