SOF Sin Nature

[Truthfrees]

I agree! My point was this also. It’s just that guardianship (in this case Guardianship) is a bit stronger word than to lead and/or guide. That’s all.

ok - i see what you mean now - thanks for continuing to explain until i got what you mean - i agree with what you are saying - that is actually a good point that i didn't realize til just now - good food for thought -

so we are more than led and guided by the law and or Christ and the Holy Spirit - we are guarded/kept safe/enclosed/etc - like living in a gated community

God bless you for pointing this out - this is a good and powerful point

 

[OzSpen]

thanks for the entire post - great post - i will answer each point with one post though to facilitate clarity

continue reading the entire passage the article quoted - notice how JESUS said not one smallest part of the law will pass away until heaven and earth pass away - since that has not happened yet we can safely assume that not even the SMALLEST part of the law has passed away YET

and since JESUS said this anything anyone else says must agree with Jesus - otherwise there is an issue of misinterpretation in play

TF,

The Mosaic Law of the OT was for the Israelites, God's chosen people. We know this from OT passages such as Ex 19 and Lev 26.

Christians not under Mosaic Law

One of the NT emphases and especially in Pauline epistles is that Christian believers are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law. This is taught clearly in passages such as Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13; Gal 3: 24-25; Gal 4:21; Gal 5:1, 13 and 2 Cor. 3:7-18. In spite of this clear NT emphasis some believers want to insist that the Mosaic Law, especially the 10 Commandments, is in force for Christians. That's not what those Pauline verses teach.

We need to remember that the Mosaic Law was written for the chosen people of Israel. We know this from Exodus 19; Leviticus 26:46; and Romans 9:4.

In Matt 5:17-18 (NIV) in the Sermon on the Mt, Jesus did not teach that the law of Moses was binding and would continue forever. If that was his teaching, it would contradict Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25 and Eph 2:15.

The word 'abolish' in Matt 5:18 literally means 'to loosen down'. In the NT it is used 17 times in situations such as the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matt 26:61; 27:40; Acts 6:14). It can mean to overthrow, deprive of success, to invalidate.

Notice the contrast in Matt 5:17-18 of 'abolish' with 'fulfill'. So abolish is the opposite of fulfill.

When Jesus was on earth, his goal was not to oppose the law but he loved and obeyed the law and fulfilled its prophecy concerning himself (see Lk 24:44).

Jot and Tittle

What does Matt 5:18 mean? 'For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished'.

• A jot is the tenth letter in the Hebrew alphabet and the smallest. It was written above the line and looks to us rather like an apostrophe:
  
  
  
  (source)
• 'tittle' is kerai, which is a small projection, a small hook that distinguishes one Hebrew letter from another.
  

A tittle is even smaller than a jot. A tittle is a letter extension, a pen stroke that can differentiate one Hebrew letter from another. An example can be seen in the comparison between the Hebrew letters resh and daleth (or dalet):​

​

​

The resh (on the left) is made with one smooth stroke. The daleth (on the right) is made with two strokes of the pen. The letters are very similar to each other, but the distinguishing mark of the daleth is the small extension of the roof of the letter:​

​

​

That extension is a tittle. See Psalm 119:25 and 153 for pictures of the daleth and resh, respectively (source).​

​

In today's lingo, we would say something like: 'With respect to the OT's fulfillment, not a "t" will be uncrossed and not an "i" will remain undotted UNTIL all of the OT is fulfilled'.

So, what does Matt 5:18 mean in relation to no jot or tittle of the Law will disappear until all is 'accomplished'? Matt 5:18 (NLT) reads, "Until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved”. That's the meaning!

Dietary Laws?

Leviticus chapter 11 (NIV) provides lists of dietary restrictions God gave to the nation of Israel. They were for the Jews - not for Gentiles or Christians. This OT chapter details which foods were not kosher for the Jews.

Non-kosher food for the Jews included: eating pork, shrimp, shellfish and many types of seafood, most insects, scavenger birds, and various other animals. They were never to apply to the Gentiles or Christians.

The dietary rules were never intended for anyone other than the Israelites to demonstrate they were a peculiar nation. So Jesus called all food clean (kosher) - Mark 7:19 (NIV).

What happened in the apostle Peter's vision (Acts 10:15 NIV)? '‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean?' Which foods has Jesus called impure? None!

When we come to the NT, should these dietary regulations apply to believers? Not according to Jesus! He said: 'Jesus declared all foods clean' (Mk 7:19 NIV).

The Mosaic Law of the OT was for the Israelites, God's chosen people. We know this from OT passages such as Ex 19 and Lev 26.

What about Christians eating or refusing to eat kosher food? Matt 14:1-23 (NIV) is clear: If a person is not mature enough to understand that ALL foods are clean, for the sake of the conscience of the immature person, the Christian should refrain from eating supposedly 'unclean' food. Christians have a right before God of eating whatever they want, but the Scriptures take a stand against gluttony. See 2 Peter 1:5-7, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, and 2 Corinthians 10:5. One of the fruit of the Spirit for believers is self-control (Galatians 5:22).

There you have my dissertation.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

very true - we are no longer under the tutelage of the law - the Holy Spirit now leads and guides us into all truth - but one thing you will find is that the Holy Spirit will never lead anyone to break the law - breaking the law will be the work of the person's own flesh

because the law is still holy and God forbid we break the law - no actually we establish the law through faith - Romans 7:12-14 - Romans 3:31 - actually it is the flesh that made the law weak - because the law is perfect and holy - Romans 8:3

TF,

That is not what Gal 3:24-25 (NIV) states:

So the law was our guardian [pedagogue] until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian [pedagogue].​

The only other time pedagogue appears in the NT is in 1 Cor 4:15 (NIV): 'Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel'.

Pedagogwgos (Greek) is an old but fairly common word for a slave who was employed by the upper class of Greek and Roman families. The slave boy was aged from 6-16 years and the pedagogue watched his behaviour at home and went with him when he went away from home, e.g. to school.

Paul taught that Christ is our Schoolmaster and the law is our pedagogue to keep watch over us UNTIL we came to Christ and became Christians.

Note v. 24: The law was our (remember Paul is addressing Galatian Jewish Christians) pedagogue until we were 'JUSTIFIED BY FAITH', i.e. declared righteous by God. Now a pedagogue is no longer necessary because we are in righteous legal standing before God.

I urge you not to impose your theology on the text from Gal 3:24-25. Nowhere does it state in these 2 verses that "the Holy Spirit now leads and guides us into all truth" (your words).

Your information about the Holy Spirit and truth is gained from other Scripture that you have imposed on this text, thus making it eisegesis.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

but the fact is there are still countries that have death penalties for these sins

and the other fact is that even if there is no death penalty in a country for these sins there is still a type of soul/spirit/body type of death connected to these sins - a type of spiritual law at work even still -

TF,

That's allegorical interpretation that brings foreign matter into the text. It is not gained from the text.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

i answered them all in the several posts i made - if you read the 7 posts that answered your one post perhaps you might feel differently - each scripture you presented was answered with clarifying scripture in a separate post

I read all of your replies but you're not consistent in your interpretation. There was a lot of allegorising and not gaining the message out of the text in context.

 

[OzSpen]

Galatians 3:23-25 seems to be about imprisonment, detention and guardianship (tutelage)....

Where does the idea of leading and guiding come from this passage?

chessman,

It doesn't. It is read into the text.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

the laws of God keep us safe until Christ and the indwelling Holy Spirit come to lead us into truth - which never contradicts God's laws - but always establishes God's laws -

now Christ and the Holy Spirit guard us and keep us safe just as God's laws did/do - God does not keep us in prison

That meaning is not gained from the text of Gal 3:23-25 (NIV).

 

[OzSpen]

as a torah observant believer i can testify that God's holy laws set me free from trouble

the most notable freedom came after keeping sabbath the ways God said to keep it

all kinds of little nagging problems that i had to keep praying about just dissolved away

many digestive and other health problems disappeared after keeping God's dietary laws

Since you are 'Torah observant', I seek your observation of Leviticus 11. For whom were these dietary laws applicable, Israelites or Gentiles?

 

[Truthfrees]

TF,

That is not what Gal 3:24-25 (NIV) states:

So the law was our guardian [pedagogue] until Christ came that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian [pedagogue].​

The only other time pedagogue appears in the NT is in 1 Cor 4:15 (NIV): 'Even if you had ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel'.

Pedagogwgos (Greek) is an old but fairly common word for a slave who was employed by the upper class of Greek and Roman families. The slave boy was aged from 6-16 years and the pedagogue watched his behaviour at home and went with him when he went away from home, e.g. to school.

Paul taught that Christ is our Schoolmaster and the law is our pedagogue to keep watch over us UNTIL we came to Christ and became Christians.

Note v. 24: The law was our (remember Paul is addressing Galatian Jewish Christians) pedagogue until we were 'JUSTIFIED BY FAITH', i.e. declared righteous by God. Now a pedagogue is no longer necessary because we are in righteous legal standing before God.

I urge you not to impose your theology on the text from Gal 3:24-25. Nowhere does it state in these 2 verses that "the Holy Spirit now leads and guides us into all truth" (your words).

Your information about the Holy Spirit and truth is gained from other Scripture that you have imposed on this text, thus making it eisegesis.

Oz

i see your point about adding other scriptures and imposing

 

[Truthfrees]

Since you are 'Torah observant', I seek your observation of Leviticus 11. For whom were these dietary laws applicable, Israelites or Gentiles?

what does the bible say specifically?

 

[Truthfrees]

TF,

That's allegorical interpretation that brings foreign matter into the text. It is not gained from the text.

Oz

theoretical discussions are not motivating for me - putting scripture into daily practice is - so my posts will be unapologetically in that vein more often than not

 

[Truthfrees]

That meaning is not gained from the text of Gal 3:23-25 (NIV).

it seems different translators see it differently

 

[Truthfrees]

TF,

The Mosaic Law of the OT was for the Israelites, God's chosen people. We know this from OT passages such as Ex 19 and Lev 26.

Christians not under Mosaic Law

One of the NT emphases and especially in Pauline epistles is that Christian believers are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law. This is taught clearly in passages such as Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13; Gal 3: 24-25; Gal 4:21; Gal 5:1, 13 and 2 Cor. 3:7-18. In spite of this clear NT emphasis some believers want to insist that the Mosaic Law, especially the 10 Commandments, is in force for Christians. That's not what those Pauline verses teach.

We need to remember that the Mosaic Law was written for the chosen people of Israel. We know this from Exodus 19; Leviticus 26:46; and Romans 9:4.

In Matt 5:17-18 (NIV) in the Sermon on the Mt, Jesus did not teach that the law of Moses was binding and would continue forever. If that was his teaching, it would contradict Rom 10:4; Gal 3:23-25 and Eph 2:15.

The word 'abolish' in Matt 5:18 literally means 'to loosen down'. In the NT it is used 17 times in situations such as the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans (Matt 26:61; 27:40; Acts 6:14). It can mean to overthrow, deprive of success, to invalidate.

Notice the contrast in Matt 5:17-18 of 'abolish' with 'fulfill'. So abolish is the opposite of fulfill.

When Jesus was on earth, his goal was not to oppose the law but he loved and obeyed the law and fulfilled its prophecy concerning himself (see Lk 24:44).

Jot and Tittle

What does Matt 5:18 mean? 'For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished'.

• A jot is the tenth letter in the Hebrew alphabet and the smallest. It was written above the line and looks to us rather like an apostrophe:
  
  
  
  (source)
• 'tittle' is kerai, which is a small projection, a small hook that distinguishes one Hebrew letter from another.

A tittle is even smaller than a jot. A tittle is a letter extension, a pen stroke that can differentiate one Hebrew letter from another. An example can be seen in the comparison between the Hebrew letters resh and daleth (or dalet):​

​

​

The resh (on the left) is made with one smooth stroke. The daleth (on the right) is made with two strokes of the pen. The letters are very similar to each other, but the distinguishing mark of the daleth is the small extension of the roof of the letter:​

​

​

That extension is a tittle. See Psalm 119:25 and 153 for pictures of the daleth and resh, respectively (source).​

​

In today's lingo, we would say something like: 'With respect to the OT's fulfillment, not a "t" will be uncrossed and not an "i" will remain undotted UNTIL all of the OT is fulfilled'.

So, what does Matt 5:18 mean in relation to no jot or tittle of the Law will disappear until all is 'accomplished'? Matt 5:18 (NLT) reads, "Until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved”. That's the meaning!

Dietary Laws?

Leviticus chapter 11 (NIV) provides lists of dietary restrictions God gave to the nation of Israel. They were for the Jews - not for Gentiles or Christians. This OT chapter details which foods were not kosher for the Jews.

Non-kosher food for the Jews included: eating pork, shrimp, shellfish and many types of seafood, most insects, scavenger birds, and various other animals. They were never to apply to the Gentiles or Christians.

The dietary rules were never intended for anyone other than the Israelites to demonstrate they were a peculiar nation. So Jesus called all food clean (kosher) - Mark 7:19 (NIV).

What happened in the apostle Peter's vision (Acts 10:15 NIV)? '‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean?' Which foods has Jesus called impure? None!

When we come to the NT, should these dietary regulations apply to believers? Not according to Jesus! He said: 'Jesus declared all foods clean' (Mk 7:19 NIV).

The Mosaic Law of the OT was for the Israelites, God's chosen people. We know this from OT passages such as Ex 19 and Lev 26.

What about Christians eating or refusing to eat kosher food? Matt 14:1-23 (NIV) is clear: If a person is not mature enough to understand that ALL foods are clean, for the sake of the conscience of the immature person, the Christian should refrain from eating supposedly 'unclean' food. Christians have a right before God of eating whatever they want, but the Scriptures take a stand against gluttony. See 2 Peter 1:5-7, 2 Timothy 3:1-9, and 2 Corinthians 10:5. One of the fruit of the Spirit for believers is self-control (Galatians 5:22).

There you have my dissertation.

Oz

thank you for your dissertation - powerful work -

 

[OzSpen]

i see your point about adding other scriptures and imposing but that is what you and i and others have been doing throughout this thread - so then we all must only read a passage in context without imposing other scriptures

basically our disagreements are due to each of us imposing other scriptures into a passage - and we each disagree about which scriptures to impose

TF,

Please direct me to specific posts where I've engaged in eisegesis of Scripture rather than exegesis.

Your statement, " adding other scriptures and imposing but that is what you and i and others have been doing throughout this thread", is of no use to me unless you tell me specifically where I've done this. Generalisations can't help.

I'm not talking about cross references that agree with the exegesis of a text. Getting the meaning out of a text in context (exegesis) is NOT opposed to obtaining cross-reference support.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

no but it is from the nkjv text - it seems different translators see it differently

I provided exegesis from the Greek text. Is your meaning from the NKJV more correct than the Greek text of Gal 3:24-25???

 

[OzSpen]

thank you for your dissertation - powerful work -

i do understand what you are saying - what you stated used to be my position also until God led me to be torah observant

one point about ALL FOODS DECLARED CLEAN - notice that God told us what was given to us as FOOD in Genesis - so if something was not given to us as food then it is not food - it is something else

pork was never given to us as food - it is something else - check out what God said to adam and noah to find out what was given as food from the beginning in Genesis before moses - so when scripture talks about all food being clean it is still talking about things God said in Genesis was food - food has always been plants and specific clean animals as per noah's ark

TF,

You still refuse to acknowledge the info I gave you about kosher food that was ONLY for the Israelites and was NEVER for Gentiles (Ex 19 and Lev 26).

Did Moses get it wrong when the dietary foods were only for the Jews?

Also, Jesus declared ALL foods clean (Mk 7:19). Did He get it wrong?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

what does the bible say specifically? - does God say these laws are only for israelites?

if God does not specify then neither can we

TF,

I dealt with Leviticus 11 and the food laws for the Jews.

I can hardly believe you ask this question. Didn't you read Lev 11:1-3 (NIV) when I mentioned Lev 11? I did and it reads:

The Lord said to Moses and Aaron, 2 ‘Say to the Israelites: “Of all the animals that live on land, these are the ones you may eat: 3 you may eat any animal that has a divided hoof and that chews the cud....​

Who did Moses and Aaron address? They were NOT the Gentiles, the Amorites, Philistines, or any other group They were the 'Israelites'. This teaching was for the Israelites.

Please show me from Lev 11 that these dietary laws were addressed to other than Israelites.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

theoretical discussions are not motivating for me - putting scripture into daily practice is - so my posts will be unapologetically in that vein more often than not

TF,

Please tell me your understanding of allegorical interpretation.

The practice of improper hermeneutics is not motivating for me.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

thank you for your dissertation - powerful work -

i do understand what you are saying - what you stated used to be my position also until God led me to be torah observant

one point about ALL FOODS DECLARED CLEAN - notice that God told us what was given to us as FOOD in Genesis - so if something was not given to us as food then it is not food - it is something else

pork was never given to us as food - it is something else - check out what God said to adam and noah to find out what was given as food from the beginning in Genesis before moses - so when scripture talks about all food being clean it is still talking about things God said in Genesis was food - food has always been plants and specific clean animals as per noah's ark

TF,

You are evading the point I made to go to what you want to talk about.

Let's get something clear. No matter what you said about Genesis and food, God confirmed:

• The dietary laws of Lev. 11:1-3 (NIV) were for Israel only and not for any other nation.
• The New Testament is clear that observation of OT food laws for religious reasons is not required under the New Covenant. Jesus Himself declared that all foods were “clean” (Mark 7:17-23 NIV).
• Your 'torah observant life' is biblical (for the Jews) but is not Christian as it is not the teaching of Jesus and Paul.
• I agree with you that we 'are instructed to walk as Jesus walked - 1 John 2:6 (NIV), 'Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did'. That living means that ALL foods are clean and not restricted to kosher food. That's Bible and straight from Jesus.
• You stated: 'when scripture talks about all food being clean it is still talking about things God said in Genesis was food - food has always been plants and specific clean animals as per noah's ark'. Chapter and verse from the NT please!

Oz

 

[JLB]

the end of the law FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS - only for righteousness

this means the keeping the law to be righteous is not something anyone can do

there is no scripture that says the law is ended as a way to live a good and productive life

if a person wants to find out if i am interpreting this right try breaking as many of God's laws as possible and see how poor quality and chaotic your life will very quickly become

Brother, I’m with with you on God’s law.

However, you know we don’t sacrifice animals, and put people to death for picking up sticks on Saturday to kindle a fire, and a host of other ordinances that were done away with.


We agree on that, right?



JLB