Bible Study Solomon's Pessimism

[hawkman]

No offense; but I have no interest in determining anything about you nor any other
member of the forum.
_

Well that is fine with me , let me ask a different way in a generic fashion .

This book refers to the
supreme being in a general sense; sort of like the common expressions: "Thank
God nobody got hurt" and/or "God forbid!" and/or "An act of God". There's nothing
particularly reverent in those kinds of expressions.

Explain why the expression , "Thank God nobody got hurt " could not be reverent . Wouldn't the heart of the person saying the expression be the deciding factor of the reverence ?

 

[Beetow]

Explain why the expression , "Thank God nobody got hurt " could not be reverent . Wouldn't the
heart of the person saying the expression be the deciding factor of the reverence ?

Consider the context. We're dealing with a collection of sayings in the Bible that are
basically philosophical, i.e. Ecclesiastes is one man's observations of life "under the
sun" In other words: in this book, Solomon's thoughts express a natural perspective
rather than a spiritual perspective.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
● Ecc 3:1 . . A season is set for everything, a time for every experience under
heaven.

This next section smacks of fatalism and predestination, but actually it only speaks
of events that are quite normal and commonplace under the sun.

● Ecc 3:2a . . A time for being born and a time for dying,

Every person experiences a birth, and each will experience a death too. Birth
and death are like appointments. As soon as a women senses that she has
conceived, she knows it's only a matter of time before she gives birth to a child so
she has to begin planning for its arrival. Same with death. We all know we're going
to die some day; it's just a matter of time.

But the problem with death is its stealth. We're young only till somewhere in our
mid thirties and then to our horror begin to gradually wither. One of the biggest
surprises of Billy Graham's life was age. He always believed he would die some day,
but Billy wasn't prepared to get old first. His is not an unusual case. Most of us
readily anticipate death; but seldom anticipate losing form and function along the
way there.

● Ecc 3:2b . . a time for planting and a time for uprooting the planted;

Farmers are constantly cultivating, planting, harvesting-- and then tilling what's left
after the harvest to prepare for the next crop.

● Ecc 3:3a . . a time for slaying and a time for healing,

A rabid dog has to be put down. But when your pet is hit by a car, you take it to the
vet.

● Ecc 3:3b . . a time for tearing down and a time for building up;

My dad worked many hours with his bare hands building us a home when I was a
kid. He sold it when I was 11 years old. Twenty-three years later, all of dad's hard
work was torn down and hauled off to make way for an RV storage lot; and the
property denuded of trees and scraped bare by bulldozers. It's like we were never
even there.

● Ecc 3:4a . . a time for weeping and a time for laughing,

Sometimes people laugh and weep all at the same time; like at a wedding.

● Ecc 3:4b . . a time for wailing and a time for dancing;

In a war, the victors celebrate and the vanquished mourn-- like in professional
sports. The cameras always show the winners elated, jumping up and down,
clapping themselves on the back, emoting for the press, and pouring ice water on
the coach; but over on the other side, the losers are all glum and silent and
dragging themselves back to the locker room.

● Ecc 3:5a . . a time for throwing stones and a time for gathering stones,

It would be nice if the Palestinians would follow that and pick up after themselves
when they're done pelting Israeli soldiers.
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[Beetow]

.
● Ecc 3:5b . . a time for embracing and a time for shunning embraces;

Sometimes lovers and friends need to make up and settle their differences before
they hug.

● Ecc 3:6a . . a time for seeking and a time for losing,

In other words: A time to search and a time to give it up for lost.

● Ecc 3:6b . . a time for keeping and a time for discarding;

Today's in-vogue couture is tomorrow's Good Will donation.

● Ecc 3:7a . . a time for ripping and a time for sewing,

When doctors need access to an injured patient's body, they often cut clothing off
with scissors rather than fussing with buttons and zippers. The very same clothing
can be repaired later by needle and thread.

● Ecc 3:7b . . a time for silence and a time for speaking;

They say silence in golden, but sometimes it's yellow; know what I mean?

● Ecc 3:8a . . a time for loving and a time for hating;

A time for love might be when your friends come over for dinner-- through the front
door. However, if they sneak in the back way while you're out, and steal your 50"
plasma TV so they can sell it for meth; that might be reason enough to dump your
friends for new ones.

● Ecc 3:8b . . a time for war and a time for peace.

Peace is much to be preferred to war. But sometimes war is necessary to procure
and to preserve peace. We live in a big bad world where there are people more
than happy to oppress you, abuse your human rights, control your movements,
restrict your speech, clamp down on dissent, take away your wealth and
possessions, destroy your home, separate you from your family, and put you to
work in a gulag where you'll be underpaid, malnourished, constantly hungry,
politically indoctrinated, and poorly clothed for the rest of your life.

● Ecc 3:9 . .What value, then, can the man of affairs get from what he earns?

In other words: What does the worker gain from his toil? Well . . one thing he does
not gain is control over the "times" listed in the previous eight verses because
many circumstances in life are unpredictable and out of our hands no matter how
much money a person might be prepared to spend.
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[Beetow]

.
● Ecc 3:10 . . I have observed the business that God gave man to be concerned
with:

The "business" of course just being the daily round of life under the sun.

● Ecc 3:11 . . He brings everything to pass precisely at its time; He also puts
eternity in their mind, but without man ever guessing, from first to last, all the
things that God brings to pass.

Man is fraught with anxieties; and some of those anxieties are aggravated by
uncertainty about the future. Within no sphere is that more evident among
Americans than in their thoughts about retirement. Oftentimes people are so
concerned about their futures that they fail to enjoy the present; so life slips past
them until one day they realize they should have lived life when they had the
chance instead of waiting till they retired.

● Ecc 3:12-13 . .Thus I realized that the only worthwhile thing there is for them is
to enjoy themselves and do what is good in their lifetime; also, that whenever a
man does eat and drink and get enjoyment out of all his wealth, it is a gift of God.

There's nothing intrinsically wrong with preparing for the future, but surely not to
the expense of missing out on life in the present. It's far better to enjoy life as you
live it, and thank whatever god it is that you recognize for the pleasures you have
at hand right now, not for the ones that may or may not come your way later. I've
actually known men in my line of work who stayed on the job as long as age
allowed just to get that very last penny of retirement benefit only to die within two
years after leaving.

● Ecc 3:14a . . I realized, too, that whatever God has brought to pass will recur
evermore: nothing can be added to it and nothing taken from it--

That frustrates and irritates some people because they would like to make some
changes in the universe and change the world to suit their feelings. But the gods
aren't budging. They're the ones in control. Man is not the one controlling the
scheme of things. Man is a prisoner of the gods' sovereign control and there is not
one single thing he can do about it.

● Ecc 3:14b . . and God has brought to pass that men revere Him.

Unfortunately Man hates God for being the one in control. They neither fear Him,
nor respect Him, nor yield to His sovereign authority. On the contrary, they very
much resent God, and want Him deposed.

● Ecc 3:15 . .Whatever exists today and whatever will exist in the future has
already existed in the past. For God calls each event back in its turn.

What's that saying? History repeats itself? Who would have thought that people
3,000 years ago shared today's evaluation of world events? Modern man's thinking
isn't really so modern after all; is it?
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[Beetow]

.
● Ecc 3:16 . . And, indeed, I have observed under the sun: Alongside justice there
is wickedness, alongside righteousness there is wickedness.

My personal favorite was a San Diego municipal judge back in the 1980's when
one day, to his utter shock and dismay, a hooker he frequented appeared in court
as a witness to testify in a case he was hearing. Upon taking the stand, the hooker
greeted the guardian of jurisprudence and expressed amazement that one of her
Johns was on the bench.

● Ecc 3:17-18 . . I mused: God will doom both righteous and wicked, for there is a
time for every experience and for every happening. So I decided, as regards men,
to dissociate them [from] the divine beings and to face the fact that they are
beasts.

When you get right down to it: when you strip away people's accouterments;
what's left is really little more than human wildlife. In point of fact, to call a human
being a beast is an insult to the animal kingdom because people are capable of
doing things that are below an animal.

● Ecc 3:19-20 . . For in respect of the fate of man and the fate of beast, they have
one and the same fate: as the one dies so dies the other, and both have the same
life-breath; man has no superiority over beast, since both amount to nothing. Both
go to the same place; both came from dust and both return to dust.

Some people are inclined to think it is arrogant of Man to suppose he's the only
form of intelligent life in the universe. But what is Man anyway but an unsanitary
primate with a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue sufficing for a mind? We
should want more of his ilk in the universe? I don't think so. Man is hardly more
intelligent than an orangutan; and ten times immoral.

Beasts die and people die too; so people really have no advantage over a cow in
that respect. True: a cow won't die rich, but then the rich take nothing out with
them when they die; same as the cow: so who's really better off in the ground? The
bovine or the rich man? Neither: they're equals in that respect.

● Ecc 3:21 . .Who knows if a man's life-breath does rise upward and if a beast's
breath does sink down into the earth?

Solomon has a point. Who today has a secure line connected to the afterlife?
Nobody. People pride themselves on their faith in holy books like the Bible, the
Vedas, the Gathas, the Talmud and the Koran; but really don't know for certain
whether or not all of the writings in any of those holy books are actually 100%
true and reliable.

Solomon never met anyone who came back from the dead with a tale to tell about
the afterlife. How about you? Who have you known personally who died, was
buried, and then later came back up out the ground; or was restored to life after
cremation?

As brilliant and as intellectual as Solomon was, he was just as much in the dark
about life after death as everybody else. Can you prove beyond a shadow of all
sensible doubt that there exists another life for human beings after death? No, you
can't; and you won't know for sure until the day comes when you actually make the
trip yourself.

● Ecc 3:22 . . I saw that there is nothing better for man than to enjoy his
possessions, since that is his portion. For who can enable him to see what will
happen afterward?

Is that really such bad advice seeing as no one really knows for sure what happens
after we die? What if all those super pious ascetics practicing a life of strict self
denial discover later after death that it was all for nothing? Wouldn't that be tragic?
It is stupid to suffer self denial when no one really knows for rock-solid sure
whether or not it counts for anything.

NOTE: Seeing as how Ecclesiastes consists of philosophy rather than "scripture"
then it's no surprise when we encounter things in here from the perspective of
common sense instead of faith.
_

 

[hawkman]

Since you are in this book I thought this would be of interest .

Your Likes Are But Dust

 

[hawkman]

Some people are inclined to think it is arrogant of Man to suppose he's the only
form of intelligent life in the universe. But what is Man anyway but an unsanitary
primate with a 3-pound lump of flabby organic tissue sufficing for a mind? We
should want more of his ilk in the universe? I don't think so. Man is hardly more
intelligent than an orangutan; and ten times immoral.

I believe we are more than a few notches above an orangutan , what does the bible say . A little lower than the angels .

Hebrews 2:7 Context​

4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? 5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak. 6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? 7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: 8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. 9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. 10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

As brilliant and as intellectual as Solomon was, he was just as much in the dark
about life after death as everybody else. Can you prove beyond a shadow of all
sensible doubt that there exists another life for human beings after death? No, you
can't; and you won't know for sure until the day comes when you actually make the
trip yourself.

We now have an advantage as Christians over Solomon , we have a helper the Holy Spirit ! Do I know for sure I will be with Christ after this life is over , YES I do . That is what the Bible tells us . I have proof in myself don't you too Beetow ?

 

[Beetow]

I believe we are more than a few notches above an orangutan, what does the bible say. A little
lower than the angels .Hebrews 2:7 Context, etc. etc.

I have chosen to discuss Ecclesiastes from the perspective of a man under the sun
rather than the perspective of a man seated in heaven. Consequently, many of my
comments will continue to be rational rather than spiritual because I sincerely believe
that is how Solomon intended his personal world view to be taken into consideration.
_

 

[Beetow]

.
● Ecc 4:1-3 . . I further observed all the oppression that goes on under the sun: the
tears of the oppressed, with none to comfort them; and the power of their
oppressors-- with none to comfort them. Then I accounted those who died long
since more fortunate than those who are still living; and happier than either are
those who have not yet come into being and have never witnessed the miseries
that go on under the sun.

I'd be curious to know just exactly when, where, and how Mr. Born-with-a-silver
spoon-in-his mouth king Solomon was exposed to the "tears" of the oppressed.
Maybe he was talking about all the hapless Jewish men he conscripted to work like
slaves in his stone quarries and logging camps.

Some people really are better off dead, and also better had they not been born. I
mean, for some people, what's the point of living at all. It's difficult for the average
American to appreciate the misery of people in other countries living in poverty, want,
squalor, tyranny, despotism, and oppression.

When I was a little boy living in San Diego back in the early 1950's I went on a trip
with my parents to Tijuana. As we walked across a bridge over the Tijuana River, I
looked down below at a pitiful community just like the community filmed in the
movie Slum Dog Millionaire. The jam-packed homes (rudimentary shelters actually)
were constructed of cardboard, sheets of plywood, corrugated tin, and sign boards.
The children were all barefoot and there were no streets and sidewalks; just
riverbed soil. I have no clue what they did for sanitation. It's my guess all their offal
went into what there was of the Tijuana River as raw sewage.

Those people down in that riverbed weren't living; they were surviving, and that
with no more dignity than a hog in a wallow. (In later years, the community was
washed away by unusually high water and subsequently the site permanently
closed to squatters by the government.)

Hafez al Assad, deceased father of the current dictator of Syria, Bashar al Assad,
was ruthless towards his political opponents. In the early 1980's, Hafez dispatched
his air force to bomb the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood's densely populated
neighborhoods in the area of Hama. (I'm talking about Syrian citizens in a Syrian
city; not foreigners in a foreign country). Afterwards, Hafez had his army bulldoze
the smoking remains. Between 10,000 and 40,000 people were slain, and
thousands more were jailed, tortured, and left to languish in prison. Protests from
human rights organizations bounced off Hafez like a BB off depleted uranium
plating.

Ryan Crocker, a US ambassador who served in Damascus during the transition from
Hafez to Bashar, said of the son: "Any suggestion that Bashar is a push-over is an
illusion. He's so personable that it's easy to underestimate him. But rest assured,
he is his father's son." Mr. Ryan is so right. It isn't unusual this very day to be
dining out in Damascus while at the same time having to listen to dreadful screams
coming from a second-floor window of the Bab Touma police station. In the street,
people cast each other knowing glances but nobody says a word because someone
might be listening.

There's little to no justice in China. Fully 99 percent of all trials result in a guilty
verdict. If you're executed with a gun, the state sends your family a bill for the
bullet.

In North Korea, three generations of a family can be punished for one member's
alleged crime. As of 2008, an estimated 200,000 North Korean citizens were
detained in labor camps: and don't get me started on Robert Mugabe of Zimbabwe.

NOTE: I penned this section quite a while ago. By now, the world's political
environments have undergone significant restructuring.
_

 

[hawkman]

I have chosen to discuss Ecclesiastes

Good , now we can discuss the question I left for you in my post . Can you answer for me , it will be part of the discussion you are wanting to have of Ecclesiastes . I want to discuss the question with Beetow the forum member who is a Christian , not your persona you are writing with .

 

[Beetow]

I want to discuss the question with @Beetow the forum member who is a Christian , not your
persona you are writing with.

I get accused of plagiarism from time to time, and AI too, but this is the first time
ever that I've been accused of a split personality.
_