Some Thoughts On Who God Foreknew

[Joyce]

"For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified".

In an earlier thread I gave the Old and New Testament scriptures to prove that God elected those for whom He had a specific purpose. But He did not choose them primarily for salvation, but to accomplish that for which they had been chosen. However, some purposes required that person be saved (Paul is an excellent example), and in those cases, they were chosen to be saved, but only because it was necessary in order to accomplish that task for which they had been chosen by God.

Many have said that the phrase, "whom He did foreknow" refers to those that God knew would accept Him. But there is no Scriptural evidence to support this view. But let us consider Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed". This tells us that those who had been chosen unto eternal life believed. Note this does not say that as many as God knew would believe were ordained to eternal life, but as many as were "ordained". Let us therefore, look once again to the Old Testament for the true meaning of the phrase, "whom He did foreknow".

In the Old Testament we read of God knowing Moses and others. But those He chose to know were not always believers. We read in Is. 45:3-4, "....so that you (Cyrus) may know that I am the Lord, the God of Israel who calls you by name. For the sake of Jacob My servant....I call on you by name and bestow on you a title of honor though you do not acknowledge Me". God chose to know Cyrus, not for salvation, but for service. It was Cyrus who ended the seventy year captivity of Israel.

But Rom. 8:29 uses the word "foreknow", "For whom He did foreknow". So God knew these people before. The question is: He knew these people before they did what? Did God know these people before they accepted Him, or did He know these people before they set out to serve Him. If it is the former (God knew them before they accepted Him) logic would dictate that because He knew them before they accepted Him, that God called them to be saved. If it is the latter (God knew them before they had set out to serve Him) then logic would dictate that because God knew that they would serve Him, He called them to serve. How can we know which is meant? By the testimony of the entire Word of God. That is to say, as is proved in the earlier thread, many were chosen to fulfill a particular purpose that God had for them. But nowhere do we read that God had ever chosen someone for the purpose of being saved.

Therefore, I believe that in Romans 8:28-30 Paul is referring to those whom God foreknew would serve Him in that task for which they had been chosen. Because He knew before hand (i.e. He foreknew) that they would serve Him, God predestined them to be conformed to the imgae of His Son. He also called, justified and glorified them.

But once again, I must emphasize the point that this calling was not primarily unto salvation, it was unto service which required those called, in most New Testament cases to be saved, so they were called to be justified etc.

Just some thoughts.

In Christ,

Joyce

 

[Paidion]

Thanks for your thoughts, Joyce.

You might want to know that the Greek word "ÀÃÂογινοÃκÉ" (proginoskÃ…Â), that is "forknow" does not in itself imply knowledge of the future. Thus to forknow a person doesn't imply knowledge of anything that person will choose to do.

Paul himself was forknown by his fellow Jews! Here is a literal translation of Acts 26:4,5

Indeed, my manner of life, then, from my youth, which was coming to be from the beginning among my nation in Jerusalem, all the Jews have perceived. Forknowing me from the first, if they would be willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee.

So the Jews "forknowing" Paul, simply meant that they knew him and his manner of life, prior to the time in which Paul was speaking. For they had perceived his manner of life from his youth. Their forknowing Paul did not imply that they now knew what choices he was going to make.

 

[Joyce]

Hi Paidion,

Thank you very much for your message, but I do have a question. The prefix translated "fore" means, according to the Strong's Dictionary, "prior to", "before". So wouldn't that imply some kind of knowledge before something.

I also have a question about next statement as well, I hope you won't mind. You wrote, "Thus to forknow a person doesn't imply knowledge of anything that person will choose to do.".

After checking all the occurrences of the Greek word I see that the word is sometimes used, not in the sense of knowing beforehand what a person will do, but, as you suggest just a knowing of a person before. The context will tell before what. For example, Rom. 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son.....". This verse seems to imply that God knew some before something, that something, according to the context would be before they knew Him,. But the context does not lend itself to the conclusion that God knew them before they did anything.

But in other verses the word is used of before a person did something. For example Acts 2:23. Verses 22-23 read, "Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth......Him being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have crucified and slain'. In this context it seems that God knew before they did it, that Israel would slay Christ.

My point is that I wonder if it is not the meaning of the Greek word itself, but the context that tells us whether the word means knowing a person before something in the context, or if it means knowing what a person will do. So it could mean either one, and the context will tell us which.

Thank you for your message. I do not mean to sound ungrateful for your help, but I have been mislead by others who know Greek (I do not), and I am just trying to have a Berean attitude.

In Christ,

Joyce










In Christ,

Joyce

 

[Paidion]

Thank you, Joyce, for correcting me on that prefix "fore". You did so so gently that it could scarcely be recognized as a correction. Thank you for your consideration.

I do not mean to sound ungrateful for your help, but I have been mislead by others who know Greek (I do not), and I am just trying to have a Berean attitude.

I'm glad you do have that attitude. Such an attitude reflects wisdom. None of us should, like little sheep, follow every word that is cast our way (unless, of course, we know that that word has its source in our Lord).

I would like to explore with you the two passages which you quoted. I have translated each of them as literally as I know how:

Acts 2:23
This [one] given up to the appointing counsel and foreknowledge of God through the hand of lawless ones, you by crucifying, killed.

Some translators translate the words for "appointing counsel" as "definite plan". That may well be the idea. For did not God plan the slaying of the Lamb long ago? Is that not what it means to refer to Jesus as "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world"? (Rev 13:8 ) So God's foreknowledge was based on his intentions, his plan. Don't we also have a certain degree of that kind of foreknowledge? Most of our plans, such as to mow our lawn, to go to a particular city, to attend a Christmas party, etc. actually come to pass. A few of our plans get thwarted, of course, but those that do are a small minority, are they not? Even God's plans sometimes are not fulfilled due to the choices of man. For example, God intended to destroy Ninevah and stated his plan through Jonah: "Forty days and Ninevah shall be destroyed". God's word through Johah was unconditional. God looking at the hearts of the Ninevites saw only wickedness there. Yet the Ninevites had free will. They responded to Jonah and repented. So God changed his mind and did not bring the destruction upon them which He had intended.

Jonah 3:10 When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil way, God relented of the disaster that he had said he would do to them, and he did not do it.

Romans 8:29
...because whom he foreknew, he also pre-appointed to become conformed to the image of the Son with a view for Him to become the firstborn among many brethren.

Again, there are those whom God knew beforehand, just as the Jews had known Paul beforehand. So God had a plan for them to become conformed to the image of the Son. He pre-appointed them for that purpose. But when we have an appointment, we may choose not to keep it. It is not inevitable. I am sure some who have been pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of Jesus, have chosen not to take even the first step toward the process.

 

[Joyce]

Hi Paidion,

Thank you for your kind message. I'm not quite sure, but I think we are closer in thought than we might think.

You wrote, "So God had a plan for them to become conformed to the image of the Son. He pre-appointed them for that purpose". I agree.

But then you wrote, " I am sure some who have been pre-appointed to be conformed to the image of Jesus, have chosen not to take even the first step toward the process". Therein lies the difficulty.

If God "pre-appointed" those He foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ, that means that the ones He foreknew must be believers because only believers are conformed to the image of Christ. In other words, God foreknew believers. and only believers, i.e. only those who would be conformed to the image of Christ.

But, as I'm sure you know. many believe that this verse tells us that God foreknew who would accept Him and those He would conform to Christ's image. But the context does not lend itself to the notion that God knew what some would do. It does, in my opinion, tell us that God knew some. Let me use an example from every day life to explain that rather subtle (but important) difference.

We might say, "I knew Joe". Or we might say, "I knew Joe would become famous". I believe that the first thought ((I knew Joe) is the parallel to Rom. 8:29, God knew some. The second thought (I knew Joe would become) is the parallel to what many believe it to say, but, in my opinion, is incorrect.

Let's consider Rom. 8:29 in a specific case. Let's say Joe is a believer. I believe that where many believe it says that God foreknew that Joe would accept Him, I think the verse really says that God foreknew Joe in the same sense that God foreknew Cyrus, who was never a believer but for whom God had a specific task.

So I understand your earlier message to say that the Greek word translated "foreknew" does not mean to foreknow what one would do. But I think we must judge by the context whether it means to foreknow what one would do, or whether it means to foreknow a person as in "I knew Joe", or as in God knowing Cyrus.

By the way, am I to gather from your comment about Nineveh that you believe in conditional prophecy?

In Christ,

Joyce