Spiritual Blessings In Abraham, Isaac and Jacob

[smaller]

I am taking for granted in this post that the readers who are trained and schooled in the lessons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob regarding 'faith' and being 'the fathers' of same see these matters as 'typology' 'allegory' and 'parable.'

From a personal perspective I have stalked the walkings of these 3 wise men in the text for over 3 decades. I'd even like to think that God in Christ has taught me some things which I will share in this thread. I also know before I even set these words to cyber print, that many will find fault. To such, you have my prayers for understanding.

Jesus said this about Abraham and the claimants of faith:

Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.

To those who understand, we have the seat of these men already set to print, to sit down with them spiritually speaking, to follow their steps. To see what their lives were like. It is upon THESE MEN and ultimately to The Son of God that the promises were kept and delivered.

So, have a seat. I hope you find gain in observations, internally viewed. You may find that God has also set some spiritual observations that are beneficial in your own heart, and are certainly welcome to share them in the Spirit of Truth.

We should know and accept that God has spoken to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and in and through His Own Seed, Jesus Christ, The Holy One of Israel.

It was in fact God in Christ who spoke to these 3 men, preparing the way for His Own Arrival in Flesh, preserving the people of Israel as a nation, as The Living Word, even 'personally directing' these fathers of the faith in their steps of faith, intricate as they were and are to those directed to read of their lives and their walk of faith. I take it that all believers could come to understand at least some of these things, to share and to walk in understandings beneficial to one another.

Luke, a Gentile who claims to have perfect understanding (Luke 1:3) and does write so to Theophilus (a friend/associate of God by definition of his name.) The writing therefore from Luke is to friends of God who seek understanding from one who claimed perfect understanding. Dig? Names are important allegorical meanings in the study of the text without any doubt, to me. If such things are mean nothing to you, I would ask that you refrain from sharing contentions that they are not. What I see will be meaningless to such handlers.

Elisabeth, being filled with the Holy Ghost made this observation as recorded by Luke regarding Gods Working with Abraham and with Israel,

Luke 1
54 He hath helped his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy;
55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever.

The speakings of God to these men of Israel, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not locked in time and only to them, but to us all who make the claims of faith. His Words to them are

FOREVER.

Deuteronomy 33:3
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

I hope some 'get the picture' here.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have always made the call just as Jesus said....come and sit down with these and receive of HIS WORDS in these men.

Jesus also made this observation, again recorded by Luke:

Luke 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

It is then to each person, to each temple so to speak that THE WORD comes in, to break the bread of understanding, to share and to show.

These are 'internal matters.' I will not be sharing here on external matters, as such things remain relatively worthless for Spiritual engagements in understandings. I fully expect The King of Glory Himself, by His Own Words is entirely capable of dealing with your temple to show Himself in these matters and what He has to say therein. Some will hear, some will not. And the lessons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob will prove to be most interesting in these regards.

God called Abram, a GENTILE, to be apart from the other nations. God raised up in Israel a people called to be apart. God dealt with them, Israel, as a people and did so directly and with many exacting purposes. All of what happened to them and with them are for our 'examples.' Let no man of Israel fail in this regard, to show us how God dealt with them.

We already know that God loved them, Israel. That God was merciful to them, Israel. Yet many of them fell. Just as many today fall. This is part of the sharing of the people of Israel, now gone, but certainly not forgotten. Some will pay closer attention than others.

A question then arrives about Abraham and how we might see his matters from Jesus:

Those who do not understand Abraham, Isaac and Jacob...who deem their lives and their recordings as not applicable to the Gospel would do well to pay closer attention. ALL of the Gospel of Grace and the foundational precepts of Christianity are in fact firmly embedded therein, as it was Jesus Himself speaking and showing these matters:

Luke 20:37
Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

And how did Moses 'show this' at the bush? By calling God the God of the LIVING, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, though they were at that time physically dead as we perceive them to be in the flesh such are ALIVE to Christ in faith and are witnesses to the faith that they carried in the testimonies of their lives, as written.

Now the religious class of Israel during the time of Jesus made claim that since they were the fleshly progeny of Abraham, they were the sons of Abraham. What did Jesus say to them regarding Abraham?

John 8:
39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

The claim of the blinded Jews was that Abraham was DEAD and so were the Prophets. Such also sought to KILL Jesus, the Living Word. This is what resistors to God do. Jesus termed such seekers as 'children of their father, THE DEVIL.'

The same things happen to this day. Right here at this board in allegorical fashions when they claim HIS WORDS dead and gone as they were FOREVER delivered to Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and THE PROPHETS.

Such 'children' SEEK TO KILL HIS WORDs.

IF children of the devil were in Pharisees, those who see will see that working as one of the DEVIL in those people, and NOT the same as the people they inhabited. This is one of the most basic understandings available in the texts. Jesus delineated this fact quite sufficiently and 'how' it happened and how it continues to happen.

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

Now, I'm going to make a point here, and will apply this matter personally.

How many believers have read this scripture, and IMMEDIATELY in their hearts say within themselves, THIS DOES AND DID NOT HAPPEN TO ME because "I have been born again." If you say that is the case for you, you are not going to like much of what I will share. To understand ANY of Gods Words you must accept the fact above from God in Christ. To those who listen to Him and HEAR, they should come to this conclusion:

You have sin. You have sinned. And sin is of the tempter, the DEVIL.

Jesus' Words then in this regard ARE TRUE for you as well. If you do not believe them, well, what can I say other than the fact that you have been stolen from already.

So, to those who listen to the deceiver, they will DEFRAY and DENY the obvious connections in these matters of their OWN SINS to the DEVIL.

To those who are not offended by this FACT OF JESUS...I would ask YOU as hearing children of God to see the following. YOU are not the DEVIL. If you see this fact as a working APART from you that is not YOU as Gods child, you have already been taken by Jesus into this fact and on the way to YOUR OWN CROSS....

And guess who you are carrying to JUDGMENT? That's right. That is WHY you must take up YOUR CROSS and FOLLOW HIM.

I'll take a break here and see if the fact will settle in in any. If not, there are no listeners here anyway, so it won't matter.

John 8:
52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?

Those who claim that Abraham is dead and so are the prophets are blinded pharisees who toss away the WORDS OF FAITH.

Here is what Jesus has to say to such;


55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?


58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


I AM lived in the heart of ABRAHAM, the FATHER OF FAITH. Therefore was Abraham GLAD and SAW HIS DAY. Those Words of God to Abraham were FOREVER WORDS.

I will sit down so to speak with these fathers of faith...in subsequent posts. Some will learn and some will deny. This is part and parcel of the package wherein The Word is sown.

It is only the DEVIL in the hearts of the hearers who will STEAL those Words of Him.

enjoy!

s

 

[smaller]

For those who were listening to Jesus, here is what He said of Abraham.

LOOK upon His Facts, the facts that Jesus claimed.

John 8:
55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jesus did not say I KNEW Abraham, but that I KNOW him. That would be PRESENT TENSE.

Abraham therefore LIVES.

Resurrection you say? Surely. Jesus KNOWS Abraham, KEPT the sayings of Abraham.

Why would any faith claimant then not seek to KNOW in the present tense, Abraham?

Spiritual reasoning 101.

The 'father' of faith is NOT DEAD. Not by any means.

Children of faith WILL FOLLOW and take keen interest in the steps of Abraham!

Genesis 26:
4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Paul shows us that SCRIPTURES preached the Gospel to Abraham. Yes, the GOSPEL!

Galatians 3:8
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

That's right. The Gospel of justification through faith was preached in the O.T!

Those who claim it dead and gone know little of these matters. Pity for them.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

What did Abraham believe? Gods Words. Every Word of God is to be believed, cover to cover. Difficult task as it may be, ALL of Gods Words are fully true and fully applicable to this day. Abraham not only kept, but obeyed His Words. All of same.

Galatians 3:7
Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Yes, Abraham has MUCH to say to children of faith.

Galatians 3:9
So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Galatians 3:18
For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

Children of faith are children of faithful Abraham and inheritors of the same promises delivered unto Abraham by The Living Word. This much a child of faith should recognize and take faithful spiritual understanding:

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

It is from Abraham that an interesting discourse of faith evolves.

Abraham had TWO SONS, one of the flesh and one of the promise.

Isaac was THE PROMISED SON. One which was born to him when his wife was well past the age of physical worthiness. I could note here many observations. In many ways the woman of the church, in her 'latter age' is in the process of giving birth. On the simple level, Isaac undoubtedly is a TYPOLOGY of Christ, the Promised Son of God.

I would like to move on a bit past Abraham therefore with the following in mind, that Abraham had TWO SONS that are important for the purposes of this thread.

If we look at Isaac, he too had HOW MANY sons? That's right....TWO again. Isaac married Rebecca, who's name means ENSNARER. These names are not without and apart from Divine Purpose. Isaac, to laugh, to jest, to mock, to make sport of. We may even see the old woman, Sarai, laugh when she heard of the matter.

There is deep significance in these two fathers of the faith having TWO SONS. One son, Ishmael, was Abraham's son of the FLESH. Isaac had a similar son in Esau. Both 'elder' sons. This too is a TYPOLOGY of the produce of every faith person. We too have and bear a 'son of the flesh.' One that is not blessed nor does the 'elder son' inherit. This identical theme is played out in Cain, the elder son compared to Abel. Again in Manasseh, the elder son and Ephraim. These are no small matters. There is much to be learned and gleaned from these matters on a personal scale for children of faith. They are matters OFTEN repeated in the text and should therefore be paid attention to. I write here largely in simplicity. God in Christ, if one pays close attention to His Every Word, will unfold wonderful things. Amazing things that are and remain FULLY IN PLAY and in force to this day and moment.

God Himself had TWO SONS. Adam was Gods first son (Luke 3:38), a NATURAL son. God also had a LAST SON, the SON of Promise, His ONLY Son, Jesus Christ.

So it is not like God has withheld Himself in these matters.

As they say, WRITE ON!

enjoy!

smaller

 

[tim-from-pa]

Whew boy. Where do I start? I know that my work's cut out for me when I see all sorts of colored letters and underlines.

I'll just say this, and if you disagree (not because I said it, but God) then I won't even bother much more because this is fundamental to understanding the covenants in the bible, and thus Christianity.

The promises to Abraham have a spiritual component regarding Christ, salvation and all that good stuff. But there are also national (natural) promises, and later kingly promises to David, etc etc which were family and national in scope, whether one is saved or not. It works in conjunction with God's plan, but the chosen do not necessarily have to be saved, if by 1) chosen I'm talking of family and racial lineage for God's purpose, and then there's 2) chosen of grace --- two types.

Most Christians only distinguish the latter, and then proceed to explain ALL of Abraham's covenant from that stance only, as if they know all about the covenant, and neglect the earthly blessings promised.

Now, I'm going to sit back and expect verses thrown (out of context) at me such as "There is no Jew or Greek, male or female...." and yada yada yada to "prove" that the "Jews" or more precisely those physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob no longer have the earthly promises somehow because they "rejected Christ" totally ignoring promises such as those found in Jeremiah 31 clearly speaking to the family of Israelites.

One last challenge. Those who talk about Abrahamic promises cannot list more than about 3 components and I find very few people understanding their full scope. There were at least 10 major ones that I can think of off the top of my head. And the things promised were such that they cannot all be "spiritual" unless one does a song and dance to make it look that way. But then it becomes "Thus says me...." instead of "Thus says the Lord...."

 

[smaller]

Whew boy. Where do I start? I know that my work's cut out for me when I see all sorts of colored letters and underlines.

I'll just say this, and if you disagree (not because I said it, but God) then I won't even bother much more because this is fundamental to understanding the covenants in the bible, and thus Christianity.

The promises to Abraham have a spiritual component regarding Christ, salvation and all that good stuff. But there are also national (natural) promises, and later kingly promises to David, etc etc which were family and national in scope, whether one is saved or not.

If you think that I have derided ANY of Israel of the flesh, you will have to point it out. I do not believe that God has abandoned any of same, nor will He. I am very much a proponent of Israel and am so from N.T. scriptures. So that is to me an aside at this point. One I may get to later as to what happened and still happens to them to this day. I do not discount their importance at all or whatsoever.

It works in conjunction with God's plan, but the chosen do not necessarily have to be saved, if by 1) chosen I'm talking of family and racial lineage for God's purpose, and then there's 2) chosen of grace --- two types.

I am not here to debate the merits of Israels salvation. Yes, there is undoubtedly 'the chosen' containing two sides of The Coin of Gods Words.

Some are chosen to hear and some are chosen to resist. I believe the determining factor remains entirely in Gods Hands. I might also suggest that within all of us is a non-hearer, chosen to resist and to 'not hear.'

Most Christians only distinguish the latter, and then proceed to explain ALL of Abraham's covenant from that stance only, as if they know all about the covenant, and neglect the earthly blessings promised.

If you are here to promote some physical gold promised to be Divinely placed in my back pocket, I would only say I passed from those positions long ago when I left the charismatic understandings.

Now, I'm going to sit back and expect verses thrown (out of context) at me such as "There is no Jew or Greek, male or female...." and yada yada yada to "prove" that the "Jews" or more precisely those physical seed of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob no longer have the earthly promises somehow because they "rejected Christ" totally ignoring promises such as those found in Jeremiah 31 clearly speaking to the family of Israelites.

You would find I have quite the opposite view on the nation and people of Israel. So, sorry, no 'replacement theology' in my eyes. If you want to know what Paul said about 'them all' go read Romans 11:25-32, and come and show me your understanding of 'that mystery.' Perhaps we will be on the same page. Perhaps not. In any case what is presented there is not allowed to be discussed at this site, and I won't be baited on the subject matter.

To me Paul's statements therein are abundantly clear.

One last challenge. Those who talk about Abrahamic promises cannot list more than about 3 components and I find very few people understanding their full scope. There were at least 10 major ones that I can think of off the top of my head. And the things promised were such that they cannot all be "spiritual" unless one does a song and dance to make it look that way. But then it becomes "Thus says me...." instead of "Thus says the Lord...."

Oh, I don't doubt that there are many matters contained in every step of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Some that may not be very pleasant to hear of personally. Some of it already touched upon here. Some apparent, some not so apparent. As to lists, well, perhaps too lengthy to sort upon in brief.

I'm observing on an admitted basis of O.T. Gospel pointing ultimately to the Promise of His Perfect Reflections in us all who are of faith. If we are on the same page there, then there will be no disputes in any of His Words.

I do however insist on internal honesty to facts with any engagers.

The first measure I usually put forth is this fact from Jesus. In this I know who is truthful 'internally' and who is NOT truthful:

Mark 4:15
And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

If you are a purported believer, and if you understand 'your sin' is directly connected to this fact of Jesus, then you will be one who has understanding of facts. In this you will also know the 'son of the flesh,' the 'elder son' who is hated not blessed, and 'why' Israel did not hear so well, and additionally why we all struggle to find the same page.

In this matter we may all realize that we are simply NOT ALONE in our reading or handling.

Meet me here and I'll know you, one way or another.

For the record, I have sin, have sinned and my sin is connected to the devil, the tempter IN MY MIND who enters there WHERE THE WORD IS SOWN.

So you have my confession of truth. Most will stumble here and resist to be DIVIDED by THE ROCK of Gods Words.

Matthew 21:44
And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

Has Jesus broken you?

enjoy!

smaller

 

[tim-from-pa]

OK, glad we are on the same page. So what were the promises to Abraham?

1. To become a great nation
2. Become blessed (the details of the nature of the blessings are found later in Genesis 49:22-26)
3. Have a great name
4. Become a blessing to others
5. Obtain a specific LAND forever
6. Have many, many descendents (the 'dust' foreshadowed physical descendents while the 'stars' foreshadowed spiritual descendents)
7. An heir of promise thru which this was to be accomplished (Isaac)
8. Become MANY nations!
9. Thru him MANY KINGS would come!
10. His seed would posses the gates of his enemies (very powerful people)
11. This was understood to be an everlasting covenant to him and his seed.

That certainly is not all the description of the Jews today, although they are partakers of some promises when Jacob split the birthright.


Judah was the lineage of Kings. Joseph was to become many nations (as opposed to one "Jewish" nation).


As a matter of fact, Most Israelites are not Jewish at all, but only those mainly from the tribe of Judah, with some from Benjamin and Levi are Jewish.


Nothing I stated here has a spiritual component per se, but national. However, it is interesting to note that the bible speaks of Israel (those containing the tribe of Joseph, and not the Jew) would be a light to the nations, as they themselves would spread to the ends of the earth and become mighty.



You hit one nail on the head ---- that of spiritual vs physical. Israel is spiritual, the Jew is fleshy. Yet, Israel, (whether an individual is in the flesh or the spirit) was promised great national promises regardless.

 

[smaller]

OK, glad we are on the same page. So what were the promises to Abraham?

I will pose some questions to your list below each, just for fun mind you.

1. To become a great nation

Nation of flesh or nation of faith?


If of flesh without faith, do you think Abraham would really care?

1. Become blessed (the details of the nature of the blessings are found later in Genesis 49:22-26)

Same as prior. Blessings of external apart from Spiritual blessings. If one without Spiritual blessings, do you think Abraham would really care?

1. Have a great name

I would see the great name already applied to Abraham many ways.

1. Become a blessing to others

And perhaps a curse to others?


Genesis 12:3
And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee

1. Obtain a specific LAND forever

Eternal habitation or temporal?

1. Have many, many descendents (the 'dust' foreshadowed physical descendents while the 'stars' foreshadowed spiritual descendents)

Sand and Stars indeed. Are our temporary bodies not returned to dust? Do the Stars not inhabit dust temporarily?

1. An heir of promise thru which this was to be accomplished (Isaac)

Allegory to Christ or nay?

1. Become MANY nations!

Faith exists in many nations?

1. Thru him MANY KINGS would come!

And did on both sides of the ledgers.

1. His seed would posses the gates of his enemies (very powerful people)

Who are his enemies? Where is their gate?

1. This was understood to be an everlasting covenant to him and his seed.

Undoubtedly.

That certainly is not all the description of the Jews today, although they are partakers of some promises when Jacob split the birthright.

The 'birthright' never changed. It was always to the 2nd son, spiritually speaking.

Judah was the lineage of Kings. Joseph was to become many nations (as opposed to one "Jewish" nation).

Judah was the physical lineage of Jesus. Judah was the 'head.' Is the Mind of Christ not The Head to rule our land, our dust bodies? Just looking from a different perspective away from flesh understandings here.

As a matter of fact, Most Israelites are not Jewish at all, but only those mainly from the tribe of Judah, with some from Benjamin and Levi are Jewish.

That which is born of the flesh remains of the flesh regardless of physical lineage. We are all born natural/flesh men regardless of the flag of physical nationality.

Nothing I stated here has a spiritual component per se, but national.

Indeed.

However, it is interesting to note that the bible speaks of Israel (those containing the tribe of Joseph, and not the Jew) would be a light to the nations, as they themselves would spread to the ends of the earth and become mighty.

Many allegories and pictures in Joseph. Did God not have complete intentions of harvesting one Nation, Israel, from within another nation, Egypt?

I accept that natural event came first. The second son was not called out of Egypt without due Godly cause. Sodom and Egypt are in fact spiritual terms.

You hit one nail on the head ---- that of spiritual vs physical.

I take all showings of the O.T. to be physical 'real' and quite natural events that point to greater purposes, that of DIVIDING US from our SINS and the nations we do not see with flesh eyes, that of the devil and his family and nations. Do you see them with flesh eyes? Do they factor in to your views?

Do you NOT see that every UNbeliever who has ever lived was in fact blinded by 'the god of this world?'

Do you see God addressing these in the O.T. allegorically and in the N.T. Spiritually face to anti-spiritual face?

Most believers retain flesh views for the most part, and have not entered into the reality that all sin is linked to the devil. When that factors into the picture, it is far more accurate, spiritually speaking.

Israel is spiritual, the Jew is fleshy. Yet, Israel, (whether an individual is in the flesh or the spirit) was promised great national promises regardless.

I have no doubt the ultimate fate of them all is delineated clearly in Romans 11 exactly as Paul stated. Do you see their fate? If so, what is it? It is the same fate as the people of faith, shown by Ezekiel in the valley of dry bones.

Resurrection from among the dead. Who are the dead?

enjoy!

s

 

[tim-from-pa]

Nation of flesh or nation of faith?

Both were intended, but flesh for certain for the purpose of the latter.

Same as prior. Blessings of external apart from Spiritual blessings. If one without Spiritual blessings, do you think Abraham would really care?

Yeah, I think so. In this universe one procreates with flesh children later to be resurrected to become children of God, so that's the best of both.

And perhaps a curse to others?

Only to those who curse them.

Eternal habitation or temporal?

Eternal, and it starts with physical real land forever and carries over into the new heavens and new earth.

Sand and Stars indeed. Are our temporary bodies not returned to dust? Do the Stars not inhabit dust temporarily?

Not all stars inhabit the dust. But even if there are no stars in the dust, that dust will still inherit the promises I've mentioned. Not for their sakes, but as a reward and unconditional promise to Abraham despite his seed's behavior.

Allegory to Christ or nay?

That's a yeah.

Faith exists in many nations?

Sure, but that's not the promise of many nations. If "many nations" were fulfilled in Christ's believers because they are people of many nations, then their origin would be genealogically from the tribe of Judah, no? There has to be a physical, genealogical connection to that which is spiritual. Many nations means many nations. Don't contort an obvious scripture. Christians do not fulfill this promise.

And did on both sides of the ledgers.

Indeed. And until Christ, the spiritual returns again for His Kingdom here on earth, according to the bible, there has to be a literal descendant on the throne of King David today, this very hour or else God is a liar.

Who are his enemies? Where is their gate?

Those against Israel, and the strategic passages of the world. This describes someone with military power.

The 'birthright' never changed. It was always to the 2nd son, spiritually speaking.

The birthright was nothing to do with spiritual. It was that by rights of physical birth, genealogically speaking, not spiritual. There are spiritual components to the birthright.

Question for you: Which tribe of Jacob (Israel) has the birthright?

 

[smaller]

Both were intended, but flesh for certain for the purpose of the latter.

Yeah, I think so. In this universe one procreates with flesh children later to be resurrected to become children of God, so that's the best of both.

What would one make of those apart from faith, those of the flesh... Inclusive of our own works of the flesh mind you, both PRE/POST salvation and POST resurrection.

This is in fact the general gist of this thread.

Only to those who curse them.

Who might that be in your opinion?

Eternal, and it starts with physical real land forever and carries over into the new heavens and new earth.

So you believe that a certain piece of land here on earth will carry forward? Where might that land be and who might the inhabitants thereof be?

Just so you know I believe that land to be our heavenly eternal new bodies, and no particular piece of physical land on earth. The land of Israel to me is typology with the tribes configured as allegorical parts. Judah the Head, Benjamin the right hand, etc etc. An interesting and elaborate study of itself in ALLEGORY. A very LONG study engagement. To lengthy for the purposes of this thread.

Not all stars inhabit the dust. But even if there are no stars in the dust, that dust will still inherit the promises I've mentioned. Not for their sakes, but as a reward and unconditional promise to Abraham despite his seed's behavior.

That is quite astute of you to actually notice that fact. Kudos. You are 1 in 1000. Yes we can both clearly see in that particular stretch of scripture prior referenced that 'enemies' of the Gospel both past and present tense shall be saved as it pertains to Israel and for the sake of the fathers, presumably Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Now how 'far' back and forth in time some view these matters will vary, with many landing on future tense only. I don't accept that view. From our present viewpoint we are looking on past tense and there is no reason not to be inclusive of future tense enemies either.

There is in fact listed a great reward for this view. It's called 'life from the dead.'

I also believe that Paul's dissection squares perfectly with Ezekiel's prophecy.

Sure, but that's not the promise of many nations. If "many nations" were fulfilled in Christ's believers because they are people of many nations, then their origin would be genealogically from the tribe of Judah, no? There has to be a physical, genealogical connection to that which is spiritual. Many nations means many nations. Don't contort an obvious scripture. Christians do not fulfill this promise.

I would only submit to you that there are nations visible and there are nations that can not be seen. A nation of sheep for example can exist unseen within the larger body of human nations and also a nation of goats can exist unseen within the larger body of human nations. (ref. Matt. 25)

I might even say that Satan and devils have 'nations' unseen by flesh eyes altogether and do business and make trade with the souls of men. Merchants of the flesh so to speak. Read about these in Psalm 73 for example, or here:

Deuteronomy 9:4
Speak not thou in thine heart, after that the LORD thy God hath cast them out from before thee, saying, For my righteousness the LORD hath brought me in to possess this land: but for the wickedness of these nations the LORD doth drive them out from before thee.

Why is this so? Because anyone with 1/2 a wit can see the people of Israel were just as much the SINNERS as the people they were driving out of the land.

All I will say about these matters is this reminder, and if a man owns up to the facts of Jesus Words, that where The Word is sown, SATAN enters the heart, it would seem to reveal that it is NOT JUST MAN involved in these matters.

Now, show me how this fact may apply to YOU. This is about my 3rd request, and I'm beginning to sense a certain evasion.

Indeed. And until Christ, the spiritual returns again for His Kingdom here on earth, according to the bible, there has to be a literal descendant on the throne of King David today, this very hour or else God is a liar.

Well, I always kinda thought that seat had been filled by Christ. The King of Hearts in the household of faith. There is no reason for me to see some present flesh king flesh descendant of Israel. I'll leave that view as odd at this time and perhaps one for you in another thread.

Those against Israel, and the strategic passages of the world. This describes someone with military power.

I'm sorry. This thread really is about internal matters. I have no interest in physical understandings for the purposes herein. Such speculations should be on your own in your own thread. I have no time for such things.

The birthright was nothing to do with spiritual. It was that by rights of physical birth, genealogically speaking, not spiritual. There are spiritual components to the birthright.

Paul advised well on 'genealogy.' I consider his advice sufficient to get me away from any such subjects:

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies

Question for you: Which tribe of Jacob (Israel) has the birthright?

None of them in the flesh. All birthright is a spiritual matter.

Romans 9:
For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Who is of Israel that is not Israel?

enjoy!

smaller

 

[tim-from-pa]

Like I said, I have my work cut out for me, but I'm not going to waste much time because you clearly put your own interpretation to scripture when "thus saith the Lord..." said otherwise. But I'll tantalize you with two of your errors.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies

That is always quoted by people who don't know jack-shoot about the importance of them, so they "spiritualize" all the promises in order to sweep this under the rug and keep their heads in the sand.

Since I'm using Bible genealogies, tell me, are the Genesis genealogies foolish questions or foolish genealogies? How about Ruth? Are those foolish questions or foolish genealogies? Or the books of Chronicles: foolish questions or foolish genealogies? How about the new testament? Geez, that starts out with a genealogy. So tell me is that a foolish question or foolish genealogy? Maybe you can explain your (perceived) expertise to the Lord and explain to Him why you are not taking Paul's writings completely out of context and calling them foolish questions or foolish genealogies.

Question for you: Which tribe of Jacob (Israel) has the birthright?

None of them in the flesh. All birthright is a spiritual matter.

Oh? So no tribes of Israel had the birthright? I don't know what gives you license to say that birthright is a spiritual matter. Nobody was "born again" spiritually before Christ, and yet there was a birthright. The birthright is defined as that by right of physical birth. Let's check that out by scripture, shall we?

Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:) (I Chronicles 5:1-2)

I was correct. Every time I see colored words and underlines, I know it's someone pushing their own agenda and interpretation. I back up what I say with scripture.

 

[Ahlulbayt]

Indeed may blessings be upon the Prophet Ibrahim(as), Prophet Isaac(as) and Prophet Yusuf(as).

 

[smaller]

Like I said, I have my work cut out for me, but I'm not going to waste much time because you clearly put your own interpretation to scripture when "thus saith the Lord..." said otherwise. But I'll tantalize you with two of your errors.

I did not open this thread to view spiritual matters as a matters of physical genealogy. Sorry.

That being said if you want my views of spiritual genealogy, you are welcome to request them by private p.m. and I will cite you 3 scriptures on the matters.

That is always quoted by people who don't know jack-shoot about the importance of them, so they "spiritualize" all the promises in order to sweep this under the rug and keep their heads in the sand.

Since I'm using Bible genealogies, tell me, are the Genesis genealogies foolish questions or foolish genealogies?

Not at all. I do not deny the importance of factual physical genealogy in the lineage of the birth of Jesus Christ. I do not extend importance past that point. I also would make some observations of variant genealogies outside of the lineage of Israel that also contain spiritual directions and understandings.

But one might also realize that some teachers of genealogies use that teaching to say that certain racial groups are devils. To me this type of discussion is abomination.

How about Ruth? Are those foolish questions or foolish genealogies? Or the books of Chronicles: foolish questions or foolish genealogies? How about the new testament? Geez, that starts out with a genealogy.

The text is clear that the names of the children of Israel are inscribed on the famous Pearly Gates, and I think they were recorded in meticulous fashions in the O.T. for an abundance of reasons. I also see you are a connoisseur of such matters.

So tell me is that a foolish question or foolish genealogy? Maybe you can explain your (perceived) expertise to the Lord and explain to Him why you are not taking Paul's writings completely out of context and calling them foolish questions or foolish genealogies.

Because I don't believe 'present and real faith' is one born of genealogy. Simple enough?

Oh? So no tribes of Israel had the birthright? I don't know what gives you license to say that birthright is a spiritual matter.

Indeedy:

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Nobody was "born again" spiritually before Christ,

The Spirit of Christ certainly inhabited the Prophets of Israel past without any doubting. Call that fact what you will.

and yet there was a birthright. The birthright is defined as that by right of physical birth. Let's check that out by scripture, shall we?

Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's:) (I Chronicles 5:1-2)

I was correct. Every time I see colored words and underlines, I know it's someone pushing their own agenda and interpretation. I back up what I say with scripture.

You have my view of Israel and their birthright from Paul's statements in Romans 11:25-32. And you even went so far as to say their being 'chosen' IS NOT a matter of faith, though they are/were ENEMIES of the Gospel, yet they are saved, and it might even appear you agree on same.

I don't however expect enemies of the Gospel to understand or agree with anything in the Gospel, as blinded Israel shows.

So what is your point?

s

 

[smaller]

I'm going to move on with this thread, expecting TimPa to school me on Nephilim Giant people/DEVILS coming to get us soon. I'd liken such beliefs to the similar school of one Arnold Murry of Shephards Chapel who believes devils are people descended from from Kennites. zzzoooommmmm!

Picture me sticking my finger down my throat over such idiotic teachings.

The short lesson on the devil is that he is the anti-Christ SPIRIT. Meaning none of us are going to be 'seeing' that wicked spirit, and particularly not as people.

Many of you who read will dodge the conclusion of Jesus mentioned in the very first post, that being where The Word is sown, SATAN ENTERS the heart to steal.

Tim from Pa bypassed this matter *as expected* not wanting to take that matter personally in relationship to his sins. It's a predictable and typical dodge game in those whom such activity transpires. Always easier to blame the other people or aliens from outerspace or giant people that are either presently hidden or about to step out of spaceships...yada yada yada zzzzzz.

It's problematic however to see that where The Word is sown, Satan enters HEARTS, yes even those of believers and just exactly HOW Jesus described it by His Words.

None are allowed to view this matter personally if they are involved in the coverup.

Tim from Pa also dodged the question of "Who is OF Israel that is NOT Israel" referenced from Paul in Romans 9.

Paul tells us himself in Romans 9 and again in Romans 11 describing that UNbelieving Israel had the spirit of stupor/slumber PUT upon them. For simple meaning that means that spirit of slumber/stupor IS NOT THEM but is OF Israel.

There is Jesus Words on these matters again confirmed.

All people who do not believe are factually blinded by the 'god of this world.' This is the condition of ALL of us prior to faith.

And this of course is the matter shown in Abraham and his 2 sons as well as in the 2 sons of Isaac, the 2 sons of Adam, the 2 sons of Joseph.

All of these are 'calling and election' matters. One is slated to hear, the others not.

The one who does not hear is NOT the person, but the spirit of STUPOR/SLUMBER that controls their minds and has 'mixed' itself WITH the people. This spirit is the 'elder spirit' shown in and by allegory in the ELDER SONs.

But for those who can not accept that this was their condition prior to faith, or can not see the facts of Jesus Words 'applied to them' in relationship to the thief of hearts, it will ALWAYS be the other guy, the physical giant devils, the Jews, or just about anyone and any thing but UPON their own minds.

It is also what the Pharisees themselves did not understand NOR COULD THEY. They were in fact on the FRONT LINES of where The Word was sown, being PRIESTS of the TEMPLE. They were in essence the FIRST LINE VICTIMS of that BLINDING FORCE. This is also why Jesus TALKED TO 'children of the DEVIL' in those men.

It is here that the person who falls upon the ROCK is BROKEN from their enemy. The enemy who BLINDED their minds prior and that SAME ROCK is the ROCK that will GROUND the ENEMY to powder.

It is also upon this ROCK that the TWO COVENANTS work, one being FOR MAN and the other side of the ledgers AGAINST the LAWLESS one, the devil, shown in ALLEGORY in the O.T. and REVEALED by Jesus openly in the N.T.

Now, everyone who does not see please repeat...

NO, my sin is NOT of the DEVIL. No, the tempter does not operate in my mind.

For those sayers, you are welcome to bow out. I already know 'who' you are and not all of you is YOU just as not all of Israel is Israel.

Believers take Jesus' Words on these matters far more seriously and PERSONALLY apply them. At this point some will realize that when we pick up The Word, we are NOT ALONE in our reading and handling...and of course the resulting problems come out in DROVES from this fact.

enjoy!

s

 

[tim-from-pa]

You have my view of Israel and their birthright from Paul's statements in Romans 11:25-32. And you even went so far as to say their being 'chosen' IS NOT a matter of faith, though they are/were ENEMIES of the Gospel, yet they are saved, and it might even appear you agree on same.

To reiterate, there is chosen of race and there's chosen of grace. In a nutshell, most people see the covenants only in the latter sense, without regards to the former. That's all I'm saying. And the former has physical, earthly blessings. Those of the faith of Abraham is equivalent to saying those who became of him because of his faith. The faith they are talking about is that of Abraham, not his seed. Otherwise, if the promises to Abraham were contingent on the offspring's faith rather than Abraham's faith, then there would be no Messiah. When Israel was long gone, and later the Jews were also taken captive, and the Davidic Kings were corrupt, tell me where was any faith to bring Messiah to them? It's because God promised that to Abraham in spite of his kids. The same with the birthright. Since the Jew does not have the birthright, we have to see that those who received it also would receive the promises made to them.

Now, on that note, Joseph had the birthright --- the promise to become a nation and many nations. That's political and a group of people no matter how one wants to spin that straightforward fact. If an unbeliever came to see this board, which one would sound more like he's sticking to the bible? One who says it the way it is regarding the birthright, or one who spins the meaning with all kinds of other verses to song and dance their way to something that means something altogether different?

I'm not saying there is not a spiritual (heavenly) component. There is the Israel of God and there's the Israel of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I sense people fail to see where these two meet to complement each other.

 

[tim-from-pa]

One other thing "smaller" (hoping its not describing your understanding) I see that when you don't understand something, you like to box people into a certain category. I am nowhere near an Arnold Murray follower. The guy can't even keep a decent Jewish calendar and I had it out with some of his fans.

You're just miffed because I brought out valid points you refuse to answer. I'll wager that the Joseph scripture having the birthright took you by surprise by your lacking knowledge in genealogy. Well take that up with God. He said it in His word, not me. I'm just repeating it.

You can take your crayons and write on now.

 

[smaller]

To reiterate, there is chosen of race and there's chosen of grace. In a nutshell, most people see the covenants only in the latter sense, without regards to the former.

Calvinists may deem that as 'common grace' i.e. all people are blessed and tolerated by God for a temporal time. I don't buy that angle, but whatever.

Abrahams son Ishmael was certainly BLESSED BY GOD as well, shown in many places, yet in allegorical fashion, the hand of Ishmael was also said to be set 'against every man.'

Genesis 16:
10 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude. 11 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Paul lays the ALLEGORY exactly upon Ishmael and his mother, Hagar THE EGYPTIAN in Galatians this way and shows us 'how' Ishmael plagues and dwells in the the presence of ALL of us:

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

Now red, blue and bold type notwithstanding ISHMAEL is a TYPOLOGY, an ALLEGORY of the condition of EVERY PERSON.

The fact that Paul is using Ishmael, Esau and many other physical characters as allegorical understandings is born out in Paul's words to BELIEVERS:

Gal. 5:
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

In this way the works of the FLESH, that would be, er, ah, SIN which is OF THE DEVIL. The is the IMP of lustful impetus. The "Ishmael" typology. The DEVIL shown in ALLEGORY. The one whom the COVENANT is and remains FIRMLY against.

Gal. 6 ties this matter to the tempter quite nicely:

1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Again, many will not see their temptation associated with THE TEMPTER. I find the conclusions of the tempter in relationship to works of the flesh unavoidable.

That's all I'm saying. And the former has physical, earthly blessings. Those of the faith of Abraham is equivalent to saying those who became of him because of his faith. The faith they are talking about is that of Abraham, not his seed. Otherwise, if the promises to Abraham were contingent on the offspring's faith rather than Abraham's faith, then there would be no Messiah. When Israel was long gone, and later the Jews were also taken captive, and the Davidic Kings were corrupt, tell me where was any faith to bring Messiah to them? It's because God promised that to Abraham in spite of his kids. The same with the birthright. Since the Jew does not have the birthright, we have to see that those who received it also would receive the promises made to them.

I condemn NO PERSON of Israel nor is such a view credible. Scriptures teach that they are ALL GODS CHILDREN regardless of their status of BELIEF.

But again that is not ALL that were OF Israel.

For those who do not HEAR JESUS and APPLY HIS WORDS to themselves, they will NOT SEE.

The fact of the matter remains, where The Word is sown, SATAN enters the hearts to steal, to blind and to ultimately KILL. I have zero use of discounting this FACT OF JESUS to me or to others.

Therefore things must come into view that are not PHYSICALLY VIEWABLE. Such things are presented in the Law, the Prophets and the accounts of the people of Israel as ALLEGORIES in the PHYSICAL of spiritual matters which were REVEALED by Christ.

Now, on that note, Joseph had the birthright --- the promise to become a nation and many nations. That's political and a group of people no matter how one wants to spin that straightforward fact. If an unbeliever came to see this board, which one would sound more like he's sticking to the bible? One who says it the way it is regarding the birthright, or one who spins the meaning with all kinds of other verses to song and dance their way to something that means something altogether different?

An unbeliever is and remains blinded by the god of this world. I do not see then just people. Understand? So what relevance is any view that cannot see the other party?

In my view such blindness speaks for itself and is quite worthless.

I'm not saying there is not a spiritual (heavenly) component. There is the Israel of God and there's the Israel of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. But I sense people fail to see where these two meet to complement each other.

I have no need to condemn any person of Israel if I know the cause of them not seeing. And I would apply the same sight to Gentiles.

It will remain a fact of this thread as follows. You are welcome to follow the fact or ignore the fact, it really doesn't matter. If you DO NOT see you are not allowed to see via the same working of blindness that I am viewing in this thread. And no, IT'S NOT PEOPLE.

All have sin.
All have sinned.

SIN IS OF THE DEVIL. The tempter blinded EVERY unbeliever who ever lived. The tempter TEMPTS every man to SIN.

Therefore this thread is a DISCUSSION of that other working IN mankind as shown in ALLEGORY in FLESH and ultimately BY JESUS in THE SPIRIT.

Discount the matter personally and I already know you are not reading alone.

enjoy!

s

 

[smaller]

One other thing "smaller" (hoping its not describing your understanding) I see that when you don't understand something, you like to box people into a certain category. I am nowhere near an Arnold Murray follower. The guy can't even keep a decent Jewish calendar and I had it out with some of his fans.

You're right. I'm not an A. Murry fan, and am not from close family personal experience of a couple of them being sucked into his cult. But of course as I see it, I don't even BLAME A. Murry. If you want to understand what I write, work on that would ya?...:yes

You're just miffed because I brought out valid points you refuse to answer.

No I'll not be entertaining variants of A. Murry either. If you are here to talk about Nephilim for example. Yes, I picked that up from one of your posts. So if you want to do a Nephilim thread, go find another one in the end times forum.

I'll wager that the Joseph scripture having the birthright took you by surprise by your lacking knowledge in genealogy. Well take that up with God. He said it in His word, not me. I'm just repeating it.

And I'll repeat for you from the scriptures. All of Israel were taught by God to be Gods children. That would be 'how many?' Yeah, 'all.' But that is not 'all' of what is of Israel and that you have not yet seen.

You can take your crayons and write on now.

Good. God spare me from the Nephilim genealogy promoters.

s

 

[smaller]

Indeed may blessings be upon the Prophet Ibrahim(as), Prophet Isaac(as) and Prophet Yusuf(as).

Ahlulbayt. A segment/family of Islam that believes themselves to be 'sinless?'

s

 

[smaller]

Faith is not a tangible matter. The physical life of Abraham in many ways contains 'allegories' of the call of faith from Gods Words and more importantly, His Spirit.

I had long wondered, why Israel? Why did God choose to express Himself in those ways of them and in their lineage? They are deeply complex matters and make for interesting studies. These matters have kept me in the text for over 3 decades.

The line of Israel extends from Adam, extends through a very specific set of 'named' progeny at each step of the way through each generation of those people. Seth for example being a replacement selection in the lineage after the death of Abel. His name translates as 'compensation.'

Even from the beginning God was showing us things in the divisions of these people. In Cain, the eldest son, we see the workings of SIN in Cain taking him captive in his heart and making him a slave of the workings of darkness in his action of murder. It is not just an account of Cain, but a very REAL account of what happens to ANY person who becomes captured by the deception of SIN. The acts of the righteous in the called lineage of Israel leans to correct actions and understandings upon which God confers His Blessings, survival, continuation, election and the culmination of His Perfect Son.

From the lineage of Seth we can find the mention of Enoch, and we also know from the scriptures that Enoch had recorded matters of scripture. Today these matters remain largely lost and in dispute today, and perhaps rightfully so, but it is reasonable to me to think that the recorded Word of God was not something that Moses pulled out of his imagination, but was something that was handed down from generation to generation from the beginning, and that such recordings were via both Direct Words of God spoken through those men, Abraham being a prophet for example and therein speaking Gods Words, even having the Law and the Gospel. Yes, Abraham had both LAW and GOSPEL. Not in the fuller forms that were delivered out later, but the initial stages of these matters are certainly found in the O.T. texts.

To me there would be no doubt that all of these progenitors of faith and the lineage of Israel certainly remembered the simplicity of THE FIRST LAW to Adam. So even in that simplicity of 'thou may eat freely but....' and the delivery of death for law transgression we have the basic formation of every subsequent Law. They all come down to simplicities. Do good and be blessed, do bad and reap the consequences. In a way the law is like common sense meant for our own good.

It was from the lineage of good doers that Noah was spared, having found GRACE himself, and being obedient to divide himself from the workings of evil and to listen to the call of God. It was not long after his delivery from the Ark that we find the alternating principles of Gods dealing with evil strains of men and the called out ones. The Tower of Babel is the first big hit on the workings of evil after the flood. It is also about this time that Abraham is called out, literally out of the CONFUSIONS of the LANGUAGES that God laid upon the masses. Which confusions remain in place to this day.

Abraham was, in essence called OUT of the confusions of Babel, from the confusions of the other nations, and was dealt with directly by THE WORD OF GOD.

This is a picture in allegory of each and every one of us in our own call. To be called OUT of the world of blind confused men. To hear the call of Gods Words and to draw near to Him rather than the world.

Therefore the father of faith, understanding his walk, and ours, we find very certain symmetry for ourselves. The matters are certainly not recorded in vain. And they are also certainly not without lessons applicable to all of us.

The father of faith does have things to say to children of faith.

enjoy!

s

 

[smaller]

Abram was called out of his fathers house, his kindred. Called away from Haran. Haran means 'mountainous or mountaineer.' In text mountains are sometimes referred to as people. One might even view our head or our mind as a mountain region. In our lives before faith we are in the mountain of the blind. The mountain of the captivity of sinful men. The mountain of confusion. The mountain so to speak of the world.

Abram was called out and sent to Canaan, Canaan meaning 'lowlands.' The root word even being humble or to be humbled. That was the property God called him into. The recognition of our call away from disobedience. To repent or have sorrow for our sin is a decent to the lowlands. To eat our humble pie and to look up To His Word and Spirit to reign in our mind. Yes, broad brush strokes of these matters, but not to afar off. These matters were for our intent in understanding the walk of faith by the father of faith. It was not merely a physical observation from the outside. These matters were painstakingly laid out, the names having importance.

Genesis 12:
6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem (the back or shoulder-to rise early,) unto the plain of Moreh (to rain, to teach.) And the Canaanite was then in the land. 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel (house of God,) and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai (heap of ruins) on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

Many will not see this, but terms such as north, south, east and west carry allegories. For example, we can find in Psalms, this about our sin, even before the Incarnation:

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

If we observe the actions of Abram, we can certainly see the house of God on the West and the heap of ruins on the east. East in the text is a representative of the origination of evil.

Genesis 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Yes, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was planted in THE EAST portion of Eden.

When God sent Adam out of the Garden of Eden, which way was he expelled?

Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

In many ways, when we come from the EAST we get an understanding of OUR SIN. OUR EVIL. Where was Cain expelled to?

Genesis 4:16
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod (wandering,) on the east of Eden.

These specifics are not just tossed about. They do have meanings, and not just the direction on a compass. God made the SUN to come up in the EAST for exacting purposes. It is from the East the the LIGHT SHINES upon our darkness.

Remember the 3 Wise men came from where? Uh huh. The EAST. That is the direction that WISE MEN come from, THE SUN having AROSE upon their DARKNESS.

The people of Babel, where were they in judgments?

Genesis 11:2
And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

Shinar: Country of TWO RIVERS. Mixture, BABYLONISH.

These are exact pictures of MEN in SIN. Men in CONFUSION trying to coalesce but God will FRUSTRATE those efforts. Why? God still works actively against SIN. Men in Babel are men in SIN, in MIXTURE.

Abraham camped between the house of God, Bethel, and the heap of ruins, a picture of Gods final dealing with east matters, the destruction of SIN.

I'm gonna pause here a bit and wait for the strainers.

enjoy!

s

 

[childeye]

Abram was called out of his fathers house, his kindred. Called away from Haran. Haran means 'mountainous or mountaineer.' In text mountains are sometimes referred to as people. One might even view our head or our mind as a mountain region. In our lives before faith we are in the mountain of the blind. The mountain of the captivity of sinful men. The mountain of confusion. The mountain so to speak of the world.

Abram was called out and sent to Canaan, Canaan meaning 'lowlands.' The root word even being humble or to be humbled. That was the property God called him into. The recognition of our call away from disobedience. To repent or have sorrow for our sin is a decent to the lowlands. To eat our humble pie and to look up To His Word and Spirit to reign in our mind. Yes, broad brush strokes of these matters, but not to afar off. These matters were for our intent in understanding the walk of faith by the father of faith. It was not merely a physical observation from the outside. These matters were painstakingly laid out, the names having importance.

Genesis 12:
6 And Abram passed through the land unto the place of Sichem (the back or shoulder-to rise early,) unto the plain of Moreh (to rain, to teach.) And the Canaanite was then in the land. 7 And the LORD appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the LORD, who appeared unto him.
8 And he removed from thence unto a mountain on the east of Bethel (house of God,) and pitched his tent, having Bethel on the west, and Hai (heap of ruins) on the east: and there he builded an altar unto the LORD, and called upon the name of the LORD.

Many will not see this, but terms such as north, south, east and west carry allegories. For example, we can find in Psalms, this about our sin, even before the Incarnation:

Psalm 103:12
As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.

If we observe the actions of Abram, we can certainly see the house of God on the West and the heap of ruins on the east. East in the text is a representative of the origination of evil.

Genesis 2:8
And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Yes, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was planted in THE EAST portion of Eden.

When God sent Adam out of the Garden of Eden, which way was he expelled?

Genesis 3:24
So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

In many ways, when we come from the EAST we get an understanding of OUR SIN. OUR EVIL. Where was Cain expelled to?

Genesis 4:16
And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod (wandering,) on the east of Eden.

These specifics are not just tossed about. They do have meanings, and not just the direction on a compass. God made the SUN to come up in the EAST for exacting purposes. It is from the East the the LIGHT SHINES upon our darkness.

Remember the 3 Wise men came from where? Uh huh. The EAST. That is the direction that WISE MEN come from, THE SUN having AROSE upon their DARKNESS.

The people of Babel, where were they in judgments?

Genesis 11:2
And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.

Shinar: Country of TWO RIVERS. Mixture, BABYLONISH.

These are exact pictures of MEN in SIN. Men in CONFUSION trying to coalesce but God will FRUSTRATE those efforts. Why? God still works actively against SIN. Men in Babel are men in SIN, in MIXTURE.

Abraham camped between the house of God, Bethel, and the heap of ruins, a picture of Gods final dealing with east matters, the destruction of SIN.

I'm gonna pause here a bit and wait for the strainers.

enjoy!

s

I did enjoy. I don't know if I'm a strainer, what is there to strain? But this I will say. On another thread about a month ago I had said your theology generally is defining reprentance. You summarily disagreed although I am more convinced you simply misunderstood. After reading this post, I reiterate what I said before, that you are defining repentance even as the turning around (repentance), has everything to do with knowing from what direction the Light is shining. Other than that little pet peeve, I believe you wrote a very thought provoking and edifying post.