Still no one...

[Henry]

I have not as of yet been given any biblical arguement for the pastor or the cuhrch building, allot of circles and such. But the bible nothing?

Why would you say such things are praying to mary are wrong, becuase they have no biblical basis, and yet though the same is true for the pastor and the building you deffend those things?

 

[KnarfKS]

Your arguements are talking about completely different ideas. I would say that you won't find anyone altering their theology or idea of communication with God based upon a building or a pastor. Otherwise that would be a problem also.

The pastor and church building are abilical, meaning they are just not addressed. Not that there is anything inherently evil about them. It can become a problem, but it doesn't have to.

I have not as of yet been given any biblical arguement for the pastor or the cuhrch building, allot of circles and such. But the bible nothing?

Just because the bible doesn't specifically address that we should go to the bathroom doesn't mean its not alright. It is abiblical as well. And can be used in a wrong way :-D

 

[cj]

Your arguements are talking about completely different ideas. I would say that you won't find anyone altering their theology or idea of communication with God based upon a building or a pastor. Otherwise that would be a problem also.

This is absolutely not true.

One need only glance at the many faces of Christianity to understand both "theology" and "communication with God" have been altered (adjusted to fall in step with) by a building and/or a pastor. Or more specifically, what each comes to represent to individuals.

Something as simple as the way a person dresses does not escape the influence.


An excellent example of this is found in the scriptures that deal with a OT King of Israel, Jeroboam, and his attempt to set up an altar to God in his own land so that his subjects would not have to go up to Jerusalem on the days specified in the law of Moses. For he was afraid that when they went up to Jerusalem their hearts would be turned back to the House of God in Jerusalem and that he would lose his power over them;

1 Kings 12:26-33, "And Jeroboam said in his heart, Now the kingdom will return to the house of David. If this people go up to make sacrifices in the house of Jehovah at Jerusalem, the heart of this people will return to their lord, to Rehoboam the king of Judah; and they will slay me and return to Rehoboam the king of Judah. And the king took counsel and made two calves of gold. And he said to them, It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Behold your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt! And he set one in Bethel, and he put the other one in Dan.

And this thing became a sin; and the people went to worship the one as far as Dan. And he made a house of high places and appointed priests from among the people who were not from the sons of Levi. And Jeroboam ordained a feast in the eighth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, like the feast that is in Judah, and he went up to the altar; he did likewise at Bethel, sacrificing to the calves that he had made. And he placed in Bethel the priests of the high places that he had made. And he went up to the altar that he had made at Bethel on the fifteenth day, in the eighth month, that is, the month he had devised in his own heart; and he ordained a feast for the children of Israel and went up to the altar to burn incense."


In the chapter that follows (13) we can find God's response to Jeroboam's actions. And in a sense, the same will be true of how God deals with the position in Christianity of pastors and buildings.

The pastor and church building are abilical, meaning they are just not addressed. Not that there is anything inherently evil about them. It can become a problem, but it doesn't have to.

Neither did the commandments and laws in ordinances have to become a problem,.... but they did,.... because men will be men.

Just because the bible doesn't specifically address that we should go to the bathroom doesn't mean its not alright. It is abiblical as well. And can be used in a wrong way.

Actually, the OT has some very clear instructions regarding personal hygiene.

Just as the bible most certainly does address the matters of authority and the meeting of the saints.

You just need to know where to look.


In love,
cj

 

[KnarfKS]

The pastor and church building are abilical, meaning they are just not addressed. Not that there is anything inherently evil about them. It can become a problem, but it doesn't have to.

note the bold, as anything can become a problem.

And in a sense, the same will be true of how God deals with the position in Christianity of pastors and buildings.

How can you judge this? Good pastors that may hold a church service in a building aren't making graven images to draw people from God. I will agreee that there are some, such as benny Hinn, who do, but not all.

Neither did the commandments and laws in ordinances have to become a problem,.... but they did,.... because men will be men.

As can be said for anything. men will be men. What does that have to do with buildings or teachers? Men are inherently evil, but where does that leave us? Should we give up on doing anything and lay down to die because we may be men once again and screw up?

 

[cj]

And in a sense, the same will be true of how God deals with the position in Christianity of pastors and buildings.

How can you judge this? Good pastors that may hold a church service in a building aren't making graven images to draw people from God. I will agreee that there are some, such as benny Hinn, who do, but not all............. As can be said for anything. men will be men. What does that have to do with buildings or teachers? Men are inherently evil, but where does that leave us? Should we give up on doing anything and lay down to die because we may be men once again and screw up?

KnarfKs,....... in love, I ask you to read again what I said,... and read the OT scripture that I gave in my post above.

Try and see where the focus of God's judgement is, you might be surprised. Actually, because of your above response I know you will be surprised.


Your response serves to prove my point, and the righteousness of God's actions. Your focus is on men, God's focus isn't, He already knows the wickednes that is found in the hearts of men, thus His focus is on something else.

Read the scripture I gave and see for yourself. Consider the content according to the context/situation. The scripture will clearly tell you what God judges as sin. And guess what, its not man.


After you read the scripture read again what I wrote above and see where my focus was; not man, but the position.


The problem lies in the matter of seeing KnarfKs (a good study to do is on the Hebrew word "ayin", which means eye, in particular in the sense of a fountain. If you are using a concordance that has the Hebrew letters/symbols make note of the letter on the right as this is the letter that influences the whole word. Now, look at all the words that begin with this letter, and understand that when all these words are used in scripture, the sense is that the reality/useage of the word is from the point of man's "seeing".)


When you look at this matter/situation of the position of a pastor and the church building you see according to what you can see, but this does not mean that what you see is what God sees. And the same is true with the scriptures. Fact is, we don't always see scriptures from the point of view that God sees them.


Go and read the OT scripture I gave, but read it looking for God's point of view, His focus, what He sees,...... and then lets talk some more.


In love,
cj

 

[Khristeeanos]

The local church should be independant and decon-lead.

 

[Henry]

KnarfKS

You are defending a system without even considering the arguments against it.

The bible NEVER talks about the Sr. Pastor of anyone like that, but does talk about elders leading.

So, tell me then why do we do somethig that is not found in the bible and not do the thing that is?

 

[Imagican]

KnarfKS

You are defending a system without even considering the arguments against it.

The bible NEVER talks about the Sr. Pastor of anyone like that, but does talk about elders leading.

So, tell me then why do we do somethig that is not found in the bible and not do the thing that is?

Remember the story of the fox and the scorpion?

If so, this is a perfect answer to your question asked above. We do what we do because it's in our nature to do it. We don't need any reason other than our own.

The organized churches that most follow have always been aware that men 'needed' more than what God has offered. Man's confusion and inability to understand has always allowed for those that were willing, to come along and lead.

The problem with this as far as 'religion' is concerned is the inevitable situation in which those that follow church leaders instead of God find themselves now. Still lost and hoping.

This is the nature of the teachings of the churches. Otherwise, people would realize that the Church is NOTHING more than those that are willing to offer their lives to God through His Son and through doing this they would again be able to develope a relationship with God and have no more need of the institutions that they have become so dependant upon.

This is too easy though and it's much more in line with his nature, for man to believe that it 'takes more' than this. No different than the Jews who decided that having God for their 'King' wasn't enough. They wanted what all other nations had; a human King. So, regardless of the sacrifice that would be required of them and their children, they insisted upon a fleshly King.

 

[Henry]

Imagican

Yes, the Isrealites wanted a man king like the rest of the nations, whom God said NOT TO be like.

Jesus said that we are not have authority like the rest of nations kings, and what happens?

We say the same thing "We want a man for a king"

The pastor the priest the what ever you want to call him, is the poor man who is caught up and made the king.

And like Saul, they are oftem misserable. Though most would nto know it, since they have to put a show.

The fact is that 80% of pastors are clinically depressed.

Just like Saul.

I read a bumper sticker that said "If God is your copiolet, you better move over"

We need no pastor but Jesus himself.