Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
-
-
Wearing the right shoes, and properly clothed spiritually?
Join Elected By Him for a devotional on Ephesians 6:14-15
https://christianforums.net/threads/devotional-selecting-the-proper-shoes.109094/
R
radorth
Guest
stray bullet said:
Why is it the apostles never recommended prayer to any saint? Why is it the ante-Nicene fathers do not call Mary anything approaching "Queen of Heaven," do not forbid marriage of church pastors, do not call missing church a sin, and fail to mention many "Articles of faith" which were made so much later? How is it Peter could be married and hold his office, but later Popes cannot?
Rad
jgredline
Member
+JMJ+
Quote:
How is it that the cc can say that Mary was sinless?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if this was directed at anybody...so I hope you don't mind my answering.
I do have a few points for the basis of the doctrine of Mary's Immaculate Conception.
One is Scripture itself. In the original Greek the words the Angel Gabriel greeted the Blessed Virgin Mary with the word kecharitomene.
This word 'kecharitomene' is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace."
Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present.
FSW
Can you give me the Book, chapter and verses for this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
How does the cc justify praying to saints?
We Catholics invoke the saints as a means to an end. When we pray to saints we don't ask, for example, St. Paul to obtain this or that. We ask St. Paul to pray for us...as I would ask you to pray for me.
You would not come to me and say, "Hey Chris, could you give me the graces of faith hope and charity?" You could....it just wouldn't do you allot of good. However, you could ask me to pray for you that you might attain these graces.
Now, let's go one step further. Why ask St. Peter or Paul? Aren't they dead? Our blessed Lord makes it quite clear that our God is a God of the living not the dead. And why should we go to saints at all?
Because:
"The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." James 5:16-18
FSW
Is there verses that support this view? other than the one you mentioned in James. I was ubder the inpression that Jesus is the only mediator
Quote:
Whats up with praying for people in purgatory and what is purgatory in the hopes they will be saved?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Purgatory is a place of temporal punishment where we must "pay the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).
Now, when we pray for those in purgatory we are not praying for their salvation. This has already been obtained. Yet, as Sacred Scripture says, nothing unclean will enter paradise. Before these souls may enter into the joy of their Masters kingdom they must be purified of their attachment to sin.
I guess you could think of it this way. I walk up to your house and knock on the door. You say I can come in, but first I must wipe the dirt off of my feet. Now, I am welcome into your home...but I must first cleanse my feet....lest I dirty up your floor (and nothing unclean may enter into it )
I hope this helps a little.
Blessings!
FSW
Is their scripture to support this view that I could study? It makes no sense to me at all. I will look into it, but right now none of it makes sense to me.
Thanks Javier
Quote:
How is it that the cc can say that Mary was sinless?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not sure if this was directed at anybody...so I hope you don't mind my answering.
I do have a few points for the basis of the doctrine of Mary's Immaculate Conception.
One is Scripture itself. In the original Greek the words the Angel Gabriel greeted the Blessed Virgin Mary with the word kecharitomene.
This word 'kecharitomene' is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace."
Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates that Mary was graced in the past but with continuing effects in the present.
FSW
Can you give me the Book, chapter and verses for this?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
How does the cc justify praying to saints?
We Catholics invoke the saints as a means to an end. When we pray to saints we don't ask, for example, St. Paul to obtain this or that. We ask St. Paul to pray for us...as I would ask you to pray for me.
You would not come to me and say, "Hey Chris, could you give me the graces of faith hope and charity?" You could....it just wouldn't do you allot of good. However, you could ask me to pray for you that you might attain these graces.
Now, let's go one step further. Why ask St. Peter or Paul? Aren't they dead? Our blessed Lord makes it quite clear that our God is a God of the living not the dead. And why should we go to saints at all?
Because:
"The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." James 5:16-18
FSW
Is there verses that support this view? other than the one you mentioned in James. I was ubder the inpression that Jesus is the only mediator
Quote:
Whats up with praying for people in purgatory and what is purgatory in the hopes they will be saved?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Purgatory is a place of temporal punishment where we must "pay the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).
Now, when we pray for those in purgatory we are not praying for their salvation. This has already been obtained. Yet, as Sacred Scripture says, nothing unclean will enter paradise. Before these souls may enter into the joy of their Masters kingdom they must be purified of their attachment to sin.
I guess you could think of it this way. I walk up to your house and knock on the door. You say I can come in, but first I must wipe the dirt off of my feet. Now, I am welcome into your home...but I must first cleanse my feet....lest I dirty up your floor (and nothing unclean may enter into it )
I hope this helps a little.
Blessings!
FSW
Is their scripture to support this view that I could study? It makes no sense to me at all. I will look into it, but right now none of it makes sense to me.
Thanks Javier
M
MrVersatile48
Guest
Purgatory is NOWHERE in the Bible: Jesus told the repentant thief on the cross, "TODAY, you will be with Me in PARADISE"
The Bible assures us that salvation is by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in Christ's once-for-all atoning sacrifice - see John 3, Romans 3, Galatians 2:15-16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 etc
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heavenâ€â€the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]
No One is Righteous
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
Galatians 2:15-16 (New International Version)
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
RC dogma FALSELY claims to re-present Christ's sacrifice: the 'Mass' was of pagan origin, not mentioned at all in the Bible
RC dogma FALSELY claims an infallible 'Magisterium' - again not in the Bible
Revelation 22 curses any who add to or take from God's Word
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
So does Deuteronomy 31
Galatians 1 curses any - even angels - who preach any other gospel
No Other Gospel
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Romans 1:18-32 shows how & why human hearts became darkened & human thinking futile
Romans 1:18-32 (New International Version)
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 1:18-27 shows very clearly how vastly superior God's wisdom & strength are to humans'
1 Corinthians 1:18-27 (New International Version)
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Revelation 17 prophecies the Great Whore of united false one-world religion, Rome-led, that persecutes the true Bride of Christ: its many details have been printed & explained in several Apologetics/Theology threads
As has Daniel 7 prophecy of an endtime revived Roman Empire, to crush, devour & trample victims, till the 'Ancient of Days' crushes it
Revelation 18 shows its coming fall & Rev 18:4 commands all God's people to come out from among them, so you will not share their punishment
Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
Must go!
Ian
The Bible assures us that salvation is by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in Christ's once-for-all atoning sacrifice - see John 3, Romans 3, Galatians 2:15-16 & Ephesians 2:8-9 etc
5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.
10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heavenâ€â€the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]
No One is Righteous
9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
Righteousness Through Faith
21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. 28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. 29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
Galatians 2:15-16 (New International Version)
15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.
Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
RC dogma FALSELY claims to re-present Christ's sacrifice: the 'Mass' was of pagan origin, not mentioned at all in the Bible
RC dogma FALSELY claims an infallible 'Magisterium' - again not in the Bible
Revelation 22 curses any who add to or take from God's Word
18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
20He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming soon."
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.
So does Deuteronomy 31
Galatians 1 curses any - even angels - who preach any other gospel
No Other Gospel
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!
10Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.
Romans 1:18-32 shows how & why human hearts became darkened & human thinking futile
Romans 1:18-32 (New International Version)
God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitiesâ€â€his eternal power and divine natureâ€â€have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creatorâ€â€who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
1 Corinthians 1:18-27 shows very clearly how vastly superior God's wisdom & strength are to humans'
1 Corinthians 1:18-27 (New International Version)
Christ the Wisdom and Power of God
18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19For it is written:
"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."[a]
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.
22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom,
23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.
26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth.
27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.
Revelation 17 prophecies the Great Whore of united false one-world religion, Rome-led, that persecutes the true Bride of Christ: its many details have been printed & explained in several Apologetics/Theology threads
As has Daniel 7 prophecy of an endtime revived Roman Empire, to crush, devour & trample victims, till the 'Ancient of Days' crushes it
Revelation 18 shows its coming fall & Rev 18:4 commands all God's people to come out from among them, so you will not share their punishment
Revelation 18:4 (New International Version)
4Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
"Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
Must go!
Ian
francisdesales
Member
MrVersatile48 said:
The concept of a third state of existence after we die IS in the Bible... Further down, you will see an explanation regarding the good thief.
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.†The word “opponent†(antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison†is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.†Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next†(from the Greek “en to mellontiâ€Â) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.†Paul’s use of “that day†demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.
Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.
Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean†comes from the Greek word “koinon†which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.
Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,†He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise†does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.†This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise†(meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today†or “now,†and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).
Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.
Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.
Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.
2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.
http://scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html
MrVersatile48 said:
Indeed, it is. And purgatory is an example of the sheer mercy of God who continues to sanctify those whom He calls to Himself even after we die. Few among us die pure, and nothing impure shall enter heaven.
MrVersatile48 said:
You mean "no one is righteous of their OWN POWER".
There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless. Luke 1:5-6
MrVersatile48 said:
But nowhere does any of your out-of-context verses say we are saved by faith ALONE.
The rest is not even on topic, so I won't address them here. I do not subscribe to the 'shotgun' approach of apologetics, making numerous accusations and hoping something sticks...
Regards
D
D46
Guest
Around the time of the Reformation, Johann Tetzel sold indulgences for the Roman Catholic Church with the pitch "As soon as the coin in the coffer rings, a soul from Purgatory springs." Good enough reason for keeping people in bondage to the Catholic Church and money coming in, I suppose. Perhaps is enough masses are said, time spent in this mythological "Purgatory" will be hastened. :roll: So, before entering Heaven, all sins must be purged in this infamous purgatory to make one clean and acceptable for Heaven. Come on!! What a man made bunch of garbage! The sacrifice of Christ is not enough to get one to heaven, but in addition, the forgiven sinner must himself suffer torment to be purged of his sin. This whole idea denies the sufficiency of Christ's finished work on the cross.
So, the doctrine of purgatory really contains a fatal contradiction. It declares that one must suffer in order to be purged of one's sins; yet at
the same time it says one need not suffer if certain rules are followed if I understand correctly. There's a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun...and "there ain't no purgatory"!! Just another Romish fairy tale to keep people in bondage to their church.
Mark 7:6-9 (KJV) He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Purgatory was a doctrine started by Pope Gregory around 600 AD. Guess it wasn't in existence until then seeing that all popes are infalliable when speaking on matters of faith and doctrine.
So, the doctrine of purgatory really contains a fatal contradiction. It declares that one must suffer in order to be purged of one's sins; yet at
the same time it says one need not suffer if certain rules are followed if I understand correctly. There's a Heaven to gain and a Hell to shun...and "there ain't no purgatory"!! Just another Romish fairy tale to keep people in bondage to their church.
Mark 7:6-9 (KJV) He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do. And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Purgatory was a doctrine started by Pope Gregory around 600 AD. Guess it wasn't in existence until then seeing that all popes are infalliable when speaking on matters of faith and doctrine.
francisdesales
Member
D46 said:
:P
Come on! You are quoting Martin Luther, not Johann Tetzel...
D46 said:
Do you disapprove of the giving of alms? The Bible sees it as a righteous thing. How about you?
D46 said:
Is that the best argument you have for refuting a doctrine of the faith, held for hundreds and hundreds of years, even predating Christianity? Making fun of it? How would you react if I was an atheist making fun of the Jesus Christ being God by laughing at the whole idea but disproving nothing?
And I have the same disdain for your methods of proving Purgatory doesn't exist...
As I have said already on several occasions, purgatory doesn't deny the sufficiency of Christ's work - it ENHANCES it!
D46 said:
This goes to show how much you know about the mystery of the Cross - that a Suffering Servant could vicariously give of Himself for the sake of another, and do it joyfully. Only the Catholic Church's teachings make sense of human suffering. Perhaps you should consider reading the first couple chapters of 1 Corinthians, or the second chapter of Phillipians, or the first chapter of Colossians.
Maybe your preacher never got to this one:
"I Paul am made a minister. Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church" Col 1:24
Regards
R
radorth
Guest
DING DING DING- RAD SIDES WITH THE CATHOLICS
To be fair, while the Catholic church has made prayers for the dead and endless masses for them into a cottage industry, the early fathers did believe in purgatory, as a cleansing and preparation for heaven. This site has some pretty irrefutable quotes. In fact the early fathers use some of the same scriptures quoted by our sincere and generally mistaken Catholic brothers.
http://www.holysoulscrusade.org/early-fathers.html
In this case I think we Protestants are mistaken. Lewis believed in purgatory, and I can add yet another scripture no one has quoted. Jesus also said some servants will recieve rewards, and some "many stripes." That is clearly punishment, but not condemnation. They are still called his servants. That said I don't see praying for the dead as so connected to purgatory. What do you pray for? That God will let them out before he's really done refining them? That he turn up the fire and get it over with? I think he does whatever he needs to do to save them to the uttermost as it were
You Catholic folks should throw me a major party for that, I think. Come to think of it. Never mind. You guys drink and cuss too much. :-D
Rad
To be fair, while the Catholic church has made prayers for the dead and endless masses for them into a cottage industry, the early fathers did believe in purgatory, as a cleansing and preparation for heaven. This site has some pretty irrefutable quotes. In fact the early fathers use some of the same scriptures quoted by our sincere and generally mistaken Catholic brothers.
http://www.holysoulscrusade.org/early-fathers.html
In this case I think we Protestants are mistaken. Lewis believed in purgatory, and I can add yet another scripture no one has quoted. Jesus also said some servants will recieve rewards, and some "many stripes." That is clearly punishment, but not condemnation. They are still called his servants. That said I don't see praying for the dead as so connected to purgatory. What do you pray for? That God will let them out before he's really done refining them? That he turn up the fire and get it over with? I think he does whatever he needs to do to save them to the uttermost as it were
You Catholic folks should throw me a major party for that, I think. Come to think of it. Never mind. You guys drink and cuss too much. :-D
Rad
P
Proximity
Guest
Atonement said:
Right on brother
francisdesales
Member
Atonement said:
What does a person's physical body have anything to do with the soul's intellect and will (which continues to live after the physical body dies) desiring to help those in need through prayer? If we are to unite in heaven with God, and God is love, doesn't it follow that people, out of love, will continue to intercede for fellow Christians continuing their journey of faith on earth?
God is the God of the living, not the dead...
Regards
francisdesales
Member
radorth said:
: Jesus was also called a "drunkard and a glutton". Does that mean we are in good company?
Seriously, "drinking too much" is a relative thing. For an alcoholic, one drink is too much. I suppose the question is "Do you think one drink is too much?"
Regards
R
radorth
Guest
MrVersatile48 said:
Well that doesn't seem like a show stopper. Purgatory and the "many stripes" Jesus talked about would not be for a fresh new Christian anyway. Any punishmnet would be for willful, post conversion sins "for which there is no more sacrifice" (Heb 6)
I can see scripture both ways, a little more in favor of some punishment, or refining "fire" if you like. The great value of purgatory is that it is redemptive in nature- not merely punishment. Here the ante-Nicene father's tip the scales, unlike with other Catholic doctrines invented after Constantine and his friends took over the church
francisdesales
Member
radorth said:
Radorth,
I appreciate your view on the development of doctrine and how the Church gradually comes to a more fuller understanding of revelation given by God to the Apostles. I am curious to know which doctrines you consider are "inventions" after Constantine. I have done lots of reading on the Development of Doctrine (to include Pelikan's 5 book series on the subject that runs the gamut of 2000 years) and in every case that comes to mind, there are seeds for the later development for what we now believe. Anything specific that you can help with here?
Regards