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Suffering

S

sk8rpinoi32

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In another thread there was a comparison between the Four Noble Truths and excerpts from the Bible. I am confused on some matters. How is our sin the origin for our suffering? That doesn't make much sense to me. If theft is 1 sin, it is because of our attachment to the item in question. Because we attach, we suffer, thus we steal, thus we sin. And as for Jesus is the way to end suffering, I have yet to find much evidence for that, no offense to people reading this. But there is a great number of enlightened monks who exist since the days of Siddhartha Gautama. And each enlightened monk lives a life free of suffering, I have met no Pastors, no people, no idols in Christianity that do not suffer. Even Christ suffered on the crossed.
 
sk8rpinoi32 posted...

But there is a great number of enlightened monks who exist since the days of Siddhartha Gautama. And each enlightened monk lives a life free of suffering,

Since you seem very eager to accept the writings of those enlightened monks as the truth, then why aren't you approaching the inspired writings found in the Holy Scriptures with this same eagerness?

In Christ,

Pogo
 
Pogo said:
sk8rpinoi32 posted...

But there is a great number of enlightened monks who exist since the days of Siddhartha Gautama. And each enlightened monk lives a life free of suffering,

Since you seem very eager to accept the writings of those enlightened monks as the truth, then why aren't you approaching the inspired writings found in the Holy Scriptures with this same eagerness?

In Christ,

Pogo

First off, very very very very very very very very very few enlighten monks teach or even talk about what they find. It's because of language barriers as well as conceptual barriers. And a lot of monks don't even claim that they are enlightened until they are asked, and hardly anyone goes around and asks that, so I don't really read scriptures of enlightened monks. There's one out there called Ajahn Chah who had a book of sayings that a friend of his wrote.

Second, you assume that I don't read the New Testament. I don't know where you get that from. Surely Christ would have wanted me to explore different religions to see for myself. From what I have seen in both religions, both demonstrate truth.
 
I assumed that the reason you are seeking the opinons of Christians here, is because you feel your knowledge of the Holy Scriptures is inadequate to draw a proper conclusion for your study.

BTW - You are unclear as to the manner of suffering that is relieved by enlightenment. Is it physical pain, or emotional pain, or spiritual pain, or all of the above?

How does enlightenment eliminate the suffering from the physical pain of a slipped disk, or the emotional pain of losing one's job, or the spiritual pain one feels over their concerns for the fate of the loss of a loved one?

Personally, I feel that such claims regarding suffering, are actually just tools for recruiting novices into their fold, thus generating manpower to continue their support system, which is what really prevents them from suffering the indignation of providing for themselves, once they have served their apprenticeshps, and risen to the upperlevels of their guild.

Anyway...the following essay was emailed to me years ago. I don't know who the author is, but I think that it is an interesting, if not accurate, interpretation, of what the Scriptures tell us about suffering.


Why Does God Allow Suffering?

Or

Why Do Bad Things Happen To Good People?


If Jehovah God is all-powerful, loving, wise, and just, why is the world so full of pain, hatred and injustice? People ask “Why?†when war, disaster, disease, or crime takes their innocent loved ones, destroys their home, or brings them untold suffering in other ways. They want to know why such tragedies befall them.

Why does God allow suffering? Is it wrong to ask why God allows suffering? Some worry that asking such a question means that they do not have enough faith or that they are showing disrespect for God. When reading the Bible, however, you will find that faithful, God-fearing people had similar questions. For example, the prophet Habakkuk asked God…â€ÂWhy do you make me see iniquity, and why do you idly look at wrong? Destruction and violence are before me; strife and contention arise. So the law is paralyzed, and justice never goes forth. For the wicked surround the righteous; so justice goes forth perverted.†- Habakkuk 1:3-4 ASV.

Did God scold the faithful prophet Habakkuk for asking such questions? No. Instead, God included Habakkuk’s sincere words in the inspired Bible record. God also helped him to get a clearer understanding of these matters and to gain greater faith. God wants to do the same for you. Remember, the Bible teaches that God cares for you (1 Peter 5:6-7). God hates wickedness and the suffering it causes far more than any human does (Isaiah 55:8-9). Why, then, is there so much suffering in this world?

WHY SO MUCH SUFFERING?

People of various religions have gone to their religious leaders and teachers to ask why there is so much suffering. Often, the response is that suffering is God’s will and that He long ago determined everything that would ever happen, including tragic events. Many are told that God’s ways are mysterious or that He brings death upon people – even children – so that He can have them in heaven with Him. As you will learn, though, God never causes what is bad. The Bible says, â€ÂTherefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.†- Job 34:10 KJV.

Do you know why some people make the mistake of blaming God for all of the suffering in the world? In many cases, they blame Almighty God because they think that He is the real ruler of this world. They do not know a simple but important truth that the Bible teaches. The real ruler of this world is Satan the Devil.

The Bible clearly states that the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one (1 John 5:19). When you think about it, does that not make sense? This world reflects the personality of the invisible spirit creature who is misleading the entire inhabited earth (Revelation 12:9). Satan is hateful, deceptive, and cruel. So the world, under his influence, is full of hatred, deceit, and cruelty. That is one reason why there is so much suffering.

A second reason why there is so much suffering is that mankind has been imperfect and sinful ever since the rebellion in the Garden of Eden. Sinful humans tend to struggle for dominance, and this results in wars, oppression, and suffering (Ecclesiastes 4:1; 8:9). A third reason for suffering is time and unforeseen occurrence (Ecclesiastes 9:11). In a world without God as a protective Ruler, people may suffer simply because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It is important, and comforting, for us to know that God does not cause suffering. He is not responsible for the wars, the oppression, the crimes, the diseases, or even the natural disasters that cause people to suffer. Still, we want to know, why does God allow all of this suffering? If He is the Almighty, He has the power to stop it. Why, then, does He hold back? The loving God that we have come to know must have a good reason (1 John 4:8).

A VITAL ISSUE IS RAISED!

To find out why God allows suffering, we need to think back to the time when suffering began. When Satan led Adam and Eve into disobeying God, an important question was raised. Satan did not call into question God’s power. Even Satan knows that there is no limit to God’s power. Rather, Satan questioned God’s right to rule. By calling God a liar who withholds good from His subjects, Satan charged that God is a bad ruler (Genesis 3:2-5). Satan implied that mankind would be better off without God’s leadership. This was an attack on God’s sovereignty, His right to rule.

Adam and Eve rebelled against God. In effect, they said: We do not need God as our Ruler. We can decide for ourselves what is right and what is wrong. How could God settle that issue? How could He teach all intelligent creatures that the rebels were wrong and that His way truly is best? Someone might say that God should simply have destroyed the rebels and made a fresh start. But God had stated His purpose to fill the earth with the offspring of Adam and Eve, and He wanted them to live in an earthly paradise (Genesis 1:28). God always fulfills His purposes (Isaiah 55:10-11). Besides that, getting rid of the rebels in Eden would not have answered the question that had been raised regarding God’s right to rule.

Let us consider an illustration. Imagine that a teacher is telling his students how to solve a difficult problem. A clever but rebellious student claims that the teacher’s way of solving the problem is wrong. Implying that the teacher is not capable, this rebel insists that he knows a much better way to solve the problem. Some of the other students begin to think that this student is right, and they also become rebellious. What should the teacher do? If he throws the rebels out of the class, what will be the effect on the other students? Will they not believe that their fellow student and those who joined him are right? All of the other students in the class might lose respect for the teacher, thinking that he is afraid of being proved wrong. But suppose that the teacher allows the rebel to show the class how he would solve the problem.

God has done something similar to what the teacher does in our example above. Remember that the rebels in Eden were not the only ones involved. Millions of angels were watching (Job 38:7; Daniel 7:10). How God handled the rebellion would greatly affect all those angels and eventually all intelligent creation. So, what has God done? He has allowed Satan to show how he would rule mankind. God has also allowed humans to govern themselves under Satan’s guidance.

The teacher in our illustration knows that the rebel and the students on his side are wrong. But he also knows that allowing them the opportunity to try and prove their point will benefit the whole class. When the rebels fail, all honest students will see that the teacher is the only one qualified to lead the class. They will understand why the teacher thereafter removes any rebels from the class. Similarly, God knows that all honest hearted humans and angels will benefit from seeing that Satan and his followers have failed and that humans cannot govern themselves. Like Jeremiah of old, they will learn this vital truth: “O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.†– Jeremiah 10:23 KJV.

WHY SO LONG?

Why, though, has God allowed suffering to go on for so long? And why does He not prevent bad things from happening? Well, consider two things that the teacher in our illustration would not do. First, he would not stop the rebel student from presenting his case. Second, the teacher would not help the rebel to make his case. Similarly, consider two things that God has determined not to do. First, He has not stopped Satan and those who side with him from trying to prove that they are right. Allowing time to pass has thus been necessary. In the thousands of years of human history, mankind has been able to try every form of self-rule, or human government. Mankind has made some advances in science and other fields, but injustice, poverty, disease, crime and war have grown ever worse. Human rule has now been shown to be a failure.

Second, God has not helped Satan to rule this world. If God were to prevent horrible crimes or diseases, for instance, would He not in effect, be supporting the case of the rebels? Would God not be making people think that perhaps humans can govern themselves without disastrous results? If God were to act in that way, He would become party to a lie. However, it is impossible for God to lie (Hebrews 6:18).

Satan, Adam, and Eve made the worst possible use of their free will.

They rejected God.

We each have also received the gift of free will, how do you intend to use yours?

In Christ,

Pogo
 
That is an excellent reply Pogo. I'm not sure if this will ban me, I'm sure the mods would agree that this is on the edge, but here goes.

In Buddhism, we naturally suffer. It's not because its forced on us or anything like that, like if you eat under cooked meat you run the risk of food poisoning. It's not you're fault or anybody elses, but in a way it is avoidable. We suffer because we thrive to survive, all acts that are selfish cause some form of suffering. Look at the cardinal sins, all of which is a selfFUL act and all are not only sinful but in term commit suffering. (There is a sutra that explains the process of each one. It's very educational and helpful if you want to deal with someone who has commited this or if you are one you're self and want to better yourself.) And to clarify, every person who isn't enlightened suffers in a way. I believe that Jesus hasn't suffered (He suffered on the cross, but not in the same sense I am talking about.) and is why Jesus is GREAT. And further proof would be when Jesus fasted for 40 days and 40 and was not tempted by the Satan, if Jesus was truely suffering, he would have taken his deal. Buddha did suffer a lot and according to his bio he felt every form of suffering, however he was able to free himself from it.

And as for you're physical pain question. Well, physical pain is chemical, and despite what you think or assume, many parts of the Body can be controlled through meditation of thought. There is a group of monks who can raise their body temperature because they constantly walk through the snow in almost no clothing, when they walk in the snow, they do not feel cold. So even physical pain can be conquered. I don't know much about the ACTUAL cruxification, just the big details, but I have seen the Passion. If the Passion is anywhere close to the real deal, then I can see that Jesus in a way has conquered physical pain. The scene where the healthy man could not even lift the cross that a tortured Jesus was carrying for hours is a sign that Jesus had will power to conquer his physical pain. I was watching a show about it, and they said that even before Jesus was strapped to the cross, he should have been dead by loss of blood or shock, but he did not, again another sign that Jesus was not only enlightened by was able to conquer the physical as a man.

Question: I know Jesus was the son of God as well as God, but is it correct to say he was a man? I know the answer can be complicated but I did ask a fellow member of a Christianity Club and they were offended by it.
 
I'm just posting this from off of the top of my head here, so I'm hoping that as I further examine this issue, I don't find myself in error...

...but, I know that Jesus refered to Himself many times as BOTH, the Son of man, AND also as the Son of God.

So, in my mind I see Him as fully a man, and fully God.

In Christ,

Pogo
 
Its like this Jesus said, “I am the truth, the life, and the wayâ€Â. By no other means!, may a man enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

All other religions appeal to the false sense, of Mans Self Worth. This is the trick!, that Satan pulled in the Garden of Eden. They offer nothing more, and their doorway leads to Hell.

No amount of prayers, singing of songs, reciting of hail Mary’s, giving of money, helping old ladies across the street, will get you into Gods Heaven. Man cannot do good works, everything is tainted with his sins. The only person that ever accomplished that was Jesus, and unless his blood has washed your sin away, you are going nowhere except straight to hell.

And yes Jesus was and is fully both God, and Man; 100%. :amen
 
samuel said:
Its like this Jesus said, “I am the truth, the life, and the wayâ€Â. By no other means!, may a man enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

All other religions appeal to the false sense, of Mans Self Worth. This is the trick!, that Satan pulled in the Garden of Eden. They offer nothing more, and their doorway leads to Hell.

No amount of prayers, singing of songs, reciting of hail Mary’s, giving of money, helping old ladies across the street, will get you into Gods Heaven. Man cannot do good works, everything is tainted with his sins. The only person that ever accomplished that was Jesus, and unless his blood has washed your sin away, you are going nowhere except straight to hell.

And yes Jesus was and is fully both God, and Man; 100%. :amen

I am sorry, as much as I believe this, in my mind it is a bit skewed. I cannot believe that someone who taught love and peace as much as the Buddha will go to hell. I hear a lot about how "false" Buddhism is, but I don't understand quite why. Scientology has a mentality that wants to convert everyone, and I heard it takes a hefty fee to join the Church, to me that does not promote peace and love but rather greed and blind obedience. Islam has demanded the death of none believers and that war can be just (despite the fact that Islam means Peace in Arabic). And even in religions, I think that even the radical need to be accounted for, both in Islam and Catholicism. However Buddhism has no radical sects, no evil men to be taken into account, only peace and love, so much so that some Buddhist cannot fight in self defense, they merely turn the other cheek. So how can a religion that promotes Buddha and a lot of Jesus's teachings be so wrong? I can't see why Heaven can't hold both.
 
What religion DOESN'T teach good, one way or another? People teach good even without religion. Even the pagan teaches goodness in some form.
So those that teach good will all wind up in heaven regardless of faith or belief?
 
sk8rpinoi32 said:
....And even in religions, I think that even the radical need to be accounted for, both in Islam and Catholicism. However Buddhism has no radical sects, no evil men to be taken into account, only peace and love, so much so that some Buddhist cannot fight in self defense, they merely turn the other cheek....

sk8rpinoi32, You are sadly mistaken if you believe that people who practice Buddhism are not capable of commiting acts of evil. In the East, Christians have been and still are persecuted by Buddhists and even Buddhist Monks. Their actions are hardly what i would refer to as 'peaceful and loving'.

Buddhist Clerics in Bangladesh Take Christians Captive:

Buddhists Drive Bangladeshi Christian from Home:

I do not view this as a black mark against the Buddhist faith in general and neither should you view the actions of evil people who happen to call themselves Christians as a black mark against Christianity.
 
Religion teaches many ways to God, the Bible teaches only one. Now the question?, are you going to put your faith in men, or the words of God.
 
Buddha is a big fat rock, Mohammed lies dead, and buried. Only one has risen to Heaven, that one being our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh:3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. :amen
 
Other religions teach that you must do things to be worthy to go to God. Christianity teaches that God came to us because we are not worthy.
 
sk8r said:
Islam has demanded the death of none believers and that war can be just (despite the fact that Islam means Peace in Arabic).
Just a quick correction. It is common in the West to say that "Islam means peace" when it actually means "submission". Throws a different spin on it and certainly allows room for jihad since those who don't submit to the will of Allah are considered enemies of Allah and the Islamic state.

sk8r said:
So how can a religion that promotes Buddha and a lot of Jesus's teachings be so wrong? I can't see why Heaven can't hold both.
As you know, in the end it comes down to whether one accepts or rejects Christ. Peace and love are good things and ought to be a part of any religion, but they cannot be sole determiners of whether or not one goes to Heaven, or rather, whether or not one is reconciled to God. The way of the Buddha is opposed to the way of Christ. However, having said that, God is just and will deal with all justly.
 
samuel said:
Buddha is a big fat rock, Mohammed lies dead, and buried. Only one has risen to Heaven, that one being our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.

Joh:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh:3:17: For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh:3:18: He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. :amen

I sort of want to point out (I've even expierence this as well as other monks) that Heaven isn't always up. In a manusprict about Meditating there is quotes about "Shining ones" or angels. Also, many monks have meditating and used powers of empathy in order to seek out different realms. My monk friend said he meditated and found Heaven to be due left of his position. I told him that I felt white light hitting my forehead upwards in a slanted angle. I guess if Heaven is dimensional, and it's true that we are swimming in a sea of universes, that would be accurate.

I'm a bit confused now about people who ascend to Heaven. I thought Mohammad also ascened to heaven on a white horse, isn't that why the Dome of the Rock was constructed?
 
Well since Buddhism is more prevalent among the leaders of these countries, than the general population. Lets see!.
China had dozens of its own people killed for a little demonstration, in Tiananmen Square several years ago. I also would not advise! you going over there on a mission trip. Unless you are ready to die!, for your faith.
Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, and killed hundreds, then went on the kill thousands in WW ll.
Korea has a lunatic for a leader, that would not hesitate to annihilate the world, if he thought he could get by with it.
All this from people who very probably were, and are Buddhist. Then to say Buddhism has no violence.

I believe Mohammad went to heaven, about as much as I believe Alice in wonderland.
 
Really, do i have to mention Slavery, Crusades, American Holocaust (The wiping out of indigenous people of America), the Holocaust (debatable), every Imperial movement just to name a few. I think bonnie pointed out that the actions of a few do not represent the whole.

The thing I like about Buddhism is that it doesn't seem like a default religion. I've asked many people "Are you Christian?" And they say "Yes." Then I asked, "Whats your favorite book in the Bible?" Or "Can you name 4 commandments?" Usually they fail. By the way, mine is Judges. One person was preaching to me about his beliefs and he kept saying "If you read the Book of Revolution, you'd see the end of the world is about to come." "...yeah that's what is saying in the Book of Revolution." He just kept saying Revolution.

Now as for China, Japan and Korea, they have Buddhist in them, but they are not predominantly Buddhist themselves. I have been to Thailand and there's tons of people who don't go to temple or anything like that and they don't call themselves Buddhist, they prefer to save that title for the Monks. Mao and Hirohito never did anything in the name of any religion, but did it for the name of their country sake. And I know what you will say, regarding ties to the country land, but think of this way, Germany had a predominantly Jewish and Christian population however the Holocaust was not an act in the name of Christianity and certainly isn't in the name of Judaism.
 
sk8rpinoi32 said:
Really, do i have to mention Slavery, Crusades, American Holocaust (The wiping out of indigenous people of America), the Holocaust (debatable), every Imperial movement just to name a few. I think bonnie pointed out that the actions of a few do not represent the whole.....Now as for China, Japan and Korea, they have Buddhist in them, but they are not predominantly Buddhist themselves. I have been to Thailand and there's tons of people who don't go to temple or anything like that and they don't call themselves Buddhist, they prefer to save that title for the Monks. Mao and Hirohito never did anything in the name of any religion, but did it for the name of their country sake. And I know what you will say, regarding ties to the country land, but think of this way, Germany had a predominantly Jewish and Christian population however the Holocaust was not an act in the name of Christianity and certainly isn't in the name of Judaism.

sk8rpinoi32, I agree with you 100%. The evil perpetrated by a certain country does not necesserily have any connection whatsoever to the faith that the majority of its citizens adhere to, nor do I blindly hold the actions of certain sects within a religion as a true refection of that religions scriptural beliefs. However, judging by this extract of a post made by you:

sk8rpinoi32 said:
....And even in religions, I think that even the radical need to be accounted for, both in Islam and Catholicism. However Buddhism has no radical sects, no evil men to be taken into account, only peace and love, so much so that some Buddhist cannot fight in self defense, they merely turn the other cheek....

....I asume that you do not feel the same way and that you are under the illusion that Buddhism is somehow superior to other faiths and that persecution and other forms of evil could never take place in the name of Buddhism. This is simply not the case.

Here are some links to articles detailing persecution and violence in the name of Buddhu:

Unholy row over dubious Buddhist sect:

BUDDHISTS ATTACK A CHURCH IN CAMBODIA:

Cambodian Buddhists mob trash Christian church:

Christian Persecution in Laos:

Buddhist Clerics in Bangladesh Take Christians Captive:

Buddhists Drive Bangladeshi Christian from Home:

Extremists stir up anti-Muslim violence in Sri Lankan:

Crackdown on Burmese Muslims:

Human Rights Situation in Bhutan:

Besieged Tibetan Buddhists Waging War to Re-Partition Kashmir:

Bhutan - One of the top five persecutors of Christians:

Nothing peaceful or loving about those followers of Buddhu and definitely no 'turning the other cheek'.
 
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