Suicide without a gun...

[follower of Christ]

That video tears me up.
I cant imagine what that woman has to live with knowing....

[youtube:2x92qcl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3EdiTK4PRJM&feature=related[/youtube:2x92qcl8]

 

[Free]

Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.

Did he?

 

[GojuBrian]

Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.

Did he?

He certainly knew he carried it around......and didn't object.

 

[follower of Christ]

Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.

Did he?

ARe you claiming that Jesus did not know future events, free ?
Is Jesus not God ?
Be very careful how you proceed because this one could expose some doctrinal error here.

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[Drew]

It doesnt MATTER if you wont admit the details D... ;)

1. You KNOW that Jesus made sure they HAD swords
2. You KNOW that Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.
3. Thus you cannot believe anything less than the fact that Jesus set Peter up into a position to COMMIT violence with that sword.
4. yet you claim that Jesus is AGAINST violence with the sword.

I dont care what you will or wont say, the details are OBVIOUS....of course youarent going to SAY that you believe them if they expose your fallacy.

I have committed no fallacy - there is an error in your critique.

Point 2 is not valid - you make an assumption that Jesus knows Peter would use the sword.

Now I wait for you to claim that, in virtue of Jesus' divinity, He must have known that Peter would indeed use the sword.....

 

[Free]

Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.

Did he?

ARe you claiming that Jesus did not know future events, free ?
Is Jesus not God ?
Be very careful how you proceed because this one could expose some doctrinal error here.

.

I have no need of being careful. Shall I provide Scripture that clearly shows Jesus did not know any future events but that which the Father revealed to him?

 

[Drew]

Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.

Did he?

I doubt it. People will no doubt respond with the overly simplistic "Jesus is God, God knows everything, therefore Jesus knew Peter would use the sword".

Well, we can talk about that if people really want to.

For my part, I believe that, by virtue of incarnation, Jesus did not possess complete fore-knowledge. For that matter, I am not entirely convinced that God the Father has exhaustive fore-knowledge of all things that will come to pass. I suspect people will not be able to substantiate the exhaustive foreknowledge position scripturally. But that's a whole "nuther issue.

I suspect that if someone asked Jesus: Who will win Super Bowl 42 in the 21st century?, Jesus would have looked at the questioner like he was from Mars.....

 

[follower of Christ]

I have committed no fallacy - there is an error in your critique.

Point 2 is not valid - you make an assumption that Jesus knows Peter would use the sword.

That was pretty easy, Drew... ;)
So YOUR claim is that Jesus doesnt know future events then ;)

yes or no ?

Now I wait for you to claim that, in virtue of Jesus' divinity, He must have known that Peter would indeed use the sword.....

Wrong, gent....Jesus KNEW and KNOWS the future....He KNEW Peter would deny Him three times before dawn .


Youre making this WAY to easy Drew.

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[Free]

Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.

Did he?

I doubt it. People will no doubt respond with the overly simplistic "Jesus is God, God knows everything, therefore Jesus knew Peter would use the sword".

Well, we can talk about that if people really want to.

For my part, I believe that, by virtue of incarnation, Jesus did not possess complete fore-knowledge. For that matter, I am not entirely convinced that God the Father has exhaustive fore-knowledge of all things that will come to pass. I suspect people will not be able to substantiate the exhaustive foreknowledge position scripturally. But that's a whole "nuther issue.

I suspect that if someone asked Jesus: Who will win Super Bowl 42 in the 21st century?, Jesus would have looked at the questioner like he was from Mars.....

My question was more or less rhetorical since Scripture plainly teaches that Jesus only knows what the Father reveals to him and has nothing to do with his divinity, which no doubt some will accuse us of denying at this point.

 

[follower of Christ]

Jesus KNEW Peter would USE that sword.

Did he?

I doubt it.

So now the TRUTH comes out.. ;)
Drew doesnt believe that Jesus knows the future, obviously.

People will no doubt respond with the overly simplistic "Jesus is God, God knows everything, therefore Jesus knew Peter would use the sword".

WRONG !
Unlike YOU WE SEE PROOF of Jesus KNOWING future events starting with Christ telling Peter that he would deny Him THREE times before the next morning
WE SEE the proof you apparently reject.

For my part, I believe that, by virtue of incarnation, Jesus did not possess complete fore-knowledge.

So Jesus KNOWS that Peter would do something like deny Him thrice, but is BLINDED to the same man hacking off an ear.

All I see is desperation, Drew.

For that matter, I am not entirely convinced that God the Father has exhaustive fore-knowledge of all things that will come to pass.

Its all coming together now

Im really glad we explored this a bit...it was well worth finding all this out and showing the readers what you believe about our Omniscient Creator


.

 

[follower of Christ]

My question was more or less rhetorical since Scripture plainly teaches that Jesus only knows what the Father reveals to him and has nothing to do with his divinity, which no doubt some will accuse us of denying at this point.

Firstly I want chapter and verse that states what you claim....EXPRESSED, not some between the line deal.
Secondly we have PROOF that Jesus foreknows the details all thru the New testament, be it something as grand as end time events...or something as small as ONE MAN denying Him....

 

[follower of Christ]

China has some of the highest suicide rates in the world!!

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2007 ... 095710.htm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... class.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... icide_rate

WHOA!!!!! Are guns legal in these countries??????

 

[follower of Christ]

I am against gun control in most cases, but I disagree with you on this.

What you are not taking into account is that guns make committing suicide a lot easier. Most people who commit suicide are deeply depressed, and are probably thinking about killing themselves even though they may not be planning to go through with it. Having access to a gun may make the decision to commit suicide easier. There are probably a large number of people that did not commit suicide because they did not have access to a gun, and you won't be able to find that in any statistics.

Would you give a depressed person a gun? I wouldn't. In the military if you are diagnosed with depression you are kept away from weapons for awhile.

Friend, I wouldnt give a bottle of aspirin to a depressed person.
The argument is illogical. There are a thousand household items one can take their lives with.
This is just bad reasoning for gun control.

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[Solo]

Im really glad we explored this a bit...it was well worth finding all this out and showing the readers what you believe about our Omniscient Creator


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And he is not alone here with this belief or unbelief, however you want to put it.

 

[Free]

I'm going to strongly suggest that you two quit twisting what people say and appealing to ridicule.

 

[Drew]

That was pretty easy, Drew... ;)
So YOUR claim is that Jesus doesnt know future events then ;)

yes or no ?

Yes - I unashamedly follow scripture which clearly asserts that there are things the Father knows that are unknown to the Son.

Youre making this WAY to easy Drew.

I agree that this is "way too easy", but not in the same sense that you think it is. You see, I have scripture on my side in respect to the matter of Jesus' limited foreknowledge:

No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,but only the Father.

So there it is - clear proof that one cannot simply assume that Jesus knows all future eventualities.

And therefore, there is no Biblical case to require us to believe that Jesus knew what Peter would do with the sword. Now I hope we can move on.

 

[follower of Christ]

I'm going to strongly suggest that you two quit twisting what people say and appealing to ridicule.

Lock the thread free....Ive asked TWICE now and I was told that is my prerogative.
I almost think its being kept open intentionally to help provoke a fight...

Again...here is my FORMAL REQUEST that this thread be LOCKED
.

 

[follower of Christ]

Yes - I unashamedly follow scripture which clearly asserts that there are things the Father knows that are unknown to the Son.

The ONLY thing that *I* see that scripture says that the Father knows that the Son doesnt is the day and hour of His return.
If YOU assert otherwise the burden of proof is on YOU to support it.
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[Drew]

So Jesus KNOWS that Peter would do something like deny Him thrice, but is BLINDED to the same man hacking off an ear.

All I see is desperation, Drew.

And all I see is faulty reasoning.

Nothing I have posted suggests that Jesus does not know a lot of things about the future. We have yet to see a scriptural argument that requires us to understand that Jesus knew what Peter would do with that sword.

 

[Free]

Lock the thread free....Ive asked TWICE now and I was told that is my prerogative.
I almost think its being kept open intentionally to help provoke a fight...

Again...here is my FORMAL REQUEST that this thread be LOCKED
.

Sure. But at some point you'll still have to answer for your unbiblical answer that Jesus was omniscient.