Sunday worshipers... Col 2:14-17 - Good website for Truth...

[Soma-Sight]

http://www.colossians-2-16.org/index.html

Check out this site and let me know what you think. 8-)

 

[cyberjosh]

An interesting link. The best point I think I saw was that the Sabbath points back to the beginning rather than ahead (which would make it a shadow), but then again we are not commanded to obey the Sabbath in the NT and the Jeruslem council did not demand of the Gentiles a Sabbath observance. Paul also said that as to those without law he became as without law (not without law to Christ) and the Gentiles did not observe Sabbath so obviouly is was ok to Paul to not observe the Sabbath or at least not demand it of them. Not mention Judaizers then later came and tried to impose their traditions including the feasts and Sabbaths on the Galatians and they thus put a stumbling block before them. Paul said not to become enslaved again to that which they were free from. We are free in Christ to observe one day as holier than another or treat all days the same according to Romans. I hold to that freedom in Christ. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

 

[ChristineES]

I can't figure out why you are so worried about when people worship God. Just worship on Saturday, if others worship on Sunday then God will deal with them if they are wrong. :-D

 

[guibox]

Both 'ceremonial law' nailers and 'Ten commandment' nailers are wrong.

Neither the ceremonial law or the moral law was nailed to the cross.

What was nailed to the cross was the 'cheirographon' which is 'the written record of our sins'. The word for 'law' is found nowhere in this passage. Instead we see that the Colossian controversy was pagan rulers (the 'judges') who were requiring strict ascetic/pagan practices of common Jewish/Christian traditions.

What Paul was saying is that our sins, which were 'against us', were what was nailed to the cross. Hence the meaning of verse 15 come through 'thus disabling principalities and powers' Satan can no longer hold our sins against us.

The whole purpose of thsi chapter is Christ's forgiveness. This is why it is the sins nailed to the cross and not any law. Nailing a code of rules for conduct is not going to free us but cause anarchy.

Paul was saying that these regulations and practices can't bring you closer to Christ (vs 23 'taste not, touch not', and the angelic worship they were practicing vs 8)

Notice that Paul doesn't say 'Let no man judge you on NOT keeping the day' The issue was judging on HOW the day was kept, not in keeping the days in general. We see that Paul doesn't have an issue with the days but the judges making the 'works oriented' requirements on the Colossians concerning the practices of those days.

 

[cyberjosh]

Guibox, would you mind commenting on my post above? You should see my perspective on this issue there.

Oh, and I have to say that I agree with ChristineES.

 

[guibox]

An interesting link. The best point I think I saw was that the Sabbath points back to the beginning rather than ahead (which would make it a shadow), but then again we are not commanded to obey the Sabbath in the NT and the Jeruslem council did not demand of the Gentiles a Sabbath observance. Paul also said that as to those without law he became as without law (not without law to Christ) and the Gentiles did not observe Sabbath so obviouly is was ok to Paul to not observe the Sabbath or at least not demand it of them. Not mention Judaizers then later came and tried to impose their traditions including the feasts and Sabbaths on the Galatians and they thus put a stumbling block before them. Paul said not to become enslaved again to that which they were free from. We are free in Christ to observe one day as holier than another or treat all days the same according to Romans. I hold to that freedom in Christ. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath and Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.

The concern I have is making the Sabbath issue between Jews and Gentiles the issue of Colossians 2. This was not the case. The issue was HOW the people were keeping these days, not the days themselves. The way they were keeping them (or expected to by the 'judges') was very Pagan and ascetic. It was an amalgamation of paganism and Judaic Christianity. The Colossian heresy included fasting, abstaining, elemental (angelic) worship and other ascetic practices.

Paul was saying that these things cannot bring one closer God or bring forgiveness. The regulations are what was a 'shadow', not the practices themelves. Forgiveness is only found in Christ and His sacrifice and not in meaningless rituals.This was done by the very act of Christ taking the 'cheirographon' the written record of our sins, and nailing them to the cross.

The issue wasn't keeping the days. If it were it would make no sense in the context of Christ's forgiveness and what that means in verses 14 and 15.
To make vs 16 mean 'Paul is saying that we don't need to observe Sabbath' is to make this verse a 'contextual island' and to completely ignore the remainder of the chapter speaking of the exact controversy that culminates in Paul's words in vs 14-17.

If one wants to find 'Sabbath abrogation', they will need to look elsewhere then this chapter.

 

[cyberjosh]

The concern I have is making the Sabbath issue between Jews and Gentiles the issue of Colossians 2. This was not the case. The issue was HOW the people were keeping these days, not the days themselves. The way they were keeping them (or expected to by the 'judges') was very Pagan and ascetic. It was an amalgamation of paganism and Judaic Christianity

I would need to see some proof of that issue being a "how" issue.

And I did not base my arguement on this scripture alone but rather approached it from every other angle except this verse. What you just said for the Colossians cannot be applied to the Galatians. I made a well rounded argument taken from several books of the Bible. And I did this infact to avoid a "contextual island" as you put it.

 

[guibox]

I would need to see some proof of that issue being a "how" issue.

By looking at the rest of the chapter and applying the context and content to Paul's words in verses 14-16. Both before and after this section of verses, Paul addresses the same things: the how of the rituals in observing religious festivals and days.

Let me go over this again.

The Colossian heresy being discussed by Paul was not an issue of merely Jewish observances. The issues were over paganism and gnostic philosophies and leaders who were dictating what rituals (pagan or Jewish) were to be followed and most importantly, how.

1) pagan philosophy of elemental worship and man made traditions (vs 8)
Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the elements of the world and not after Christ"
* - This is hardly talking about any Jewish law or Jewish rulers enforcing scriptural laws
2) angelic worship - vs 18
3) asectic rituals of eating and drinking - vs 20-22
4) debasement of the body to uplift the spirit - vs 18,23

Throughout the whole chapter, Paul is trying to tell the Colossians that Christ is the fulness of life, not bodily, outward rituals that don't mean anything anymore. He is our forgiveness and these ascetic practices will not bring us closer to Christ.

The problem here is that Paul is not warning us against the practices mentioned here, but against “anyone†(in this case, the pagan leaders) who judged them on how they were to be keeping them. Judging from the rest of the chapter, we see that it was strict observance “Do not touch, do not tasteâ€Â. Presumably, the ‘judge’ wanted the people to observe these days in a more ascetic way “severity to the body†vs 21,23. This would include more fasting and less feasting.

Isn't it interesting that out of the blue Paul brings up 'eating and drinking'? Does that mean that we are not to eat and drink anymore? Hardly. We see that this was a part of the pagan celebrations. Though the practices derive from Jewish events, the practice of them was very pagan. The festivals were kept not according to the Jewish Torah, but to the “elements of the universe†(vs 8, 20). This is what Paul was speaking out against, hence the reason why he says, “Let no man judge youâ€Â

If Paul is speaking against the judging of the way to practice these festivals and not the festivals themselves, then Paul is promoting the Sabbath, not diminishing it.

In a nutshell, what Paul is saying here is, "Why do you serve your body and your gods? Christ has forgiven you! You don't need all these rituals and philosophies of your so called 'leaders' to become closer to God! Christ is the reality of it all. All you need is Him!"

And I did not base my arguement on this scripture alone but rather approached it from every other angle except this verse. What you just said for the Colossians cannot be applied to the Galatians. I made a well rounded argument taken from several books of the Bible. And I did this infact to avoid a "contextual island" as you put it.

I apologize if I gave that impression of you. I was really going off on a tangent more than anything. Many try to link Colossians 2 with Ephesians 2:15. Even though it seems like they are talking about the same thing, they aren't. Ephesians is indeed speaking of some sort of law, whereas Colossians is speaking of the 'chierographon'. I was merely saying that Colossians alone cannot be used to support other texts people use to say the Sabbath is no longer binding, nor can it be used alone to support it.

 

[Solo]

Re: Sunday worshipers... Col 2:14-17 - Good website for Trut

http://www.colossians-2-16.org/index.html

Check out this site and let me know what you think. 8-)

Another Seventh-day Adventist propaganda site proclaiming false teachings.

Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the law unto the Salvation of believers, not the mirror of our missing the mark ten commandments. The Law is not the Salvation of God, it is the mirror of our lacking which requires a Savior. Praise God for Jesus Christ giving us the ability to live within the Law of God keeping every day holy unto the LORD!

Those that rest in Jesus Christ need not fear the death prescribed by the Law; instead they walk according to the righteousness of Jesus Christ which has been imputed to each one who has been born of the Spirit.