To all those that claim "Calvinism is wrong" and often little else ... I am listening.
If Calvinism is wrong, then what is right?
Tell me the actual truth.
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Tell me the TRUTH.
- Thread starter atpollard
- Start date
If Calvinism is wrong, then what is right?
Tell me the actual truth.
journeyman
Member
The truth is, people are born with the ability to learn about God.
As a Particular Baptist, I agree.
However as Scripture states …
- “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.” [Romans 1:18-21 NKJV]
- “And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.” [Ephesians 2:1-3 NKJV]
… having the ability to learn about God doesn’t do them any good.- People still did not glorify Him
- People still walked in sin and were children of wrath.
- God had to do something about it (make them alive).
”People are born with the ability to learn about God” is not it.
The issue is DESIRE rather than ABILITY.
Everyone likes John 3, well one thing that John 3 teaches is:
John 3:18-20 [NKJV]
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”
Genesis 3:8 [NKJV]
“And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.”
Everyone likes John 3, well one thing that John 3 teaches is:
John 3:18-20 [NKJV]
"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.”
- “He who does not believe is condemned already” … everyone starts out NOT BELIEVING. Nobody is born already believing the gospel, trusting Jesus and saved.
- Those condemned (everyone before salvation):
- Love darkness
- Hate light (God)
- Do not come to the light.
Genesis 3:8 [NKJV]
“And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.”
- People like to “hate” on the concept of Original Sin and the Fallen Nature, but a quick comparison of Genesis 3 and John 3 shows the apple did not fall far from the tree. 😉
I think the problem is that maybe people study the WCF instead of Calvin.
Did you ever check out the Institutes?
The WCF is based on that, of course.
But the WCF is so much "nicer".
I owe you some serious posts, but just got home. 1,15AM, tomorrow.
This is what is right, as understood by every denomination except the reformed.
Man is born with the sin nature.
Every man is a sinner by nature.
God desires all men to be saved.
He who believes in Jesus and obeys Him, will be saved.
The solution is that God gives enough grace to all so that they know about God.
It's the person's choice to accept Jesus' sacrifice or not.
(I hear calvinists state that this choice means we save ourselves. How does one come to such a conclusion??)
If they didn't glorify God then they were lost.
But Romans 1says MAN KNEW ABOUT GOD FROM THE CREATION. Some DID honor God.
Some did not. This is why each man will have no excuse when he stands before God,,,God will judge the person on the same bases as we will...faith.
Why would Paul mention having an excuse if God picks us?
HOW were we made alive?
Maybe this is the crux of the problem?
Easy question:
How do they come to the light?
Yes. They knew they did wrong.
They never forgot God.
What does Gen 3,8 mean to you?
Right.
The sin nature is inherited by all.
So far, Particular Baptists agree with this, too.
So this is understood by “Calvinists” (Reformed) and is not a TRUTH that we got wrong.
1 Timothy 2:4
I acknowledge that it says those words, but something “does not compute” since the Bible is VERY CLEAR that ALL MEN (without exception) are not saved. So where is God’s OMNIPOTENCE and Sovereign Control of all things (which the Bible also teaches, right)?
I know the “Reformed” answer, but would prefer to hear how you resolve this apparent conflict within scripture.
“and obeys Him”? What about:
Romans 10:8-13 [NKJV]
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Verse that teaches this, please?
The solution that “everyone” knows may not be in the Bible.
Verse that teaches this, please?
There are plenty (too many) topics that already tell YOU why “you are wrong”. This is a place for asking, listening, and seeking clarification. I only push back if what someone says appears to contradict scripture (then I let scripture challenge them) or doesn’t answer the question that was asked.
I suspect that they are simply stating that even a drop of SYNERGISM is not MONERGISM (99.99% God and 0.01% man < 100% God).
I am not in THIS TOPIC to defend Calvinism. I have been told (too many times) that Calvinism is “not the truth” with no interest, opportunity or attempt to tell me what IS THE TRUTH. This topic is a place for me to LISTEN to the TRUTH and see if it …
- Contradicts what the Reformed believe.
- is supported by the Bible.
I cannot guarantee to be able to answer for other people … sometimes people are crazy. 😉
Come on … Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes “never forgot” the GOD literally standing there taking his walk in the cool of the day and ORDERING them to come out of hiding and present themselves before Him. Is that your argument?
I guess sinners will “never forget” God either when they stand before the Judgement Seat. 😉
No.Come on … Adam and Eve hiding in the bushes “never forgot” the GOD literally standing there taking his walk in the cool of the day and ORDERING them to come out of hiding and present themselves before Him. Is that your argument?
I guess sinners will “never forget” God either when they stand before the Judgement Seat. 😉
I asked you to explain why you mentioned that.
Or I meant to....about walking in the garden.
I like to understand before replying.
Eve told Adam that God gave her a baby.
Re remembering God...
I know that's not why you're here.
I was making a point.
We don't understand Romans 1:19 the same way. We don't seem to understand ANY verse the same way.
journeyman
Member
journeyman
Member
What you've misunderstood in Rom.1:18-21, because in the 1st place, Rom.1:16 says,
the gospel of Christ....is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth
Paul is saying the gospel itself is the power of God. His word is his power. His word has power to save or destroy, but he gives all the opportunity to hear it.
Secondly, Rom.1:17 says, "The just shall live by faith." We live, we order our lives, according to how our Master taught.
So when we get to Rom.1:18-21, Paul is saying Gods' wrath is revealed against anyone who violates what he's conscious of. The conscience all people have. He isn't saying, "Anyone who knows he has done something wrong, has no ability or desire repent." Ok? Paul isn't saying, "Every man or woman who ever committed sin, eventually became a homosexual or lesbian. He's simply showing how people who forget to honor God become blind, because they're not to begin with.
In Eph.2:1-3, he's saying "You (gentiles
hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins (vs.1). In fact, in Eph.1:3-12, Paul is only referring to Jewish
("we")believers. He isn't saying, No Jew by his own conscience could believe in God." Ok?
Then in vs.13, Paul mentions how the gentiles ("ye") believed. So when we get to Ch.2, he means the gentiles are saved because God is rich in mercy to them, as he was to those who violated him,
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) Eph.2:5
The "grace" is that God didn't lay them out for pounding nails in his hands. He simply teaching the gentiles we all now understand that we live because someone we hated so much, simply forgave those who repented. Being "dead in sins" is no diffrent from having "a death sentence" on oneself.
The passages you cited say the opposite of what you've posted. We aren't born unenlightened. We can become that way over time if we forget our Lord,
Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; Ecc.12:1
Fair enough.
John 3 tells us that people who sin, hide from God and Genesis 3 shows us that even Adam and Eve hid from God when they sinned. Genesis 3:8 is John 3:19-20 being lived out in even the first two people and the first sin.
It was just support for my observation that when it comes to man and sin and “original sin”, the apple didn’t fall far from the tree [an idiom that means that the children are just like their parents, in case English is a second language to you … you do live in Italy].
It is bad form to build a doctrine from just one verse … do you have additional support for this claim (the gospel words themself have the power to save)?
- Why doesn’t EVERYONE that hears it believe if it has the power of God?
- Do “all without exception” really have the opportunity to hear it? Empirical evidence suggests that statement is false. Why would Paul make demonstrably false statements?
journeyman
Member
I'm talking about the "good news", the "gospel", the "word of our Lord." The "foolishness" of temporarily withholding your wrath against vile sinners who are attacking not only you, but your son as well. So I can cite you many verses related to the gospel that Jesus showed a lot of mercy toward sinners by not ripping their miserable heads off. But here's one,
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 1Cor.1:21
Read the text. He's saying it's foolish to the world, if Jesus "was" who he claimed to be and let people get away with mistreating him the way they did. They don't believe he overcame death. Maybe they were mistaught the gospel. Maybe they thought Jesus was getting hammered in place of them, instead of them hammering Jesus in place of God. Jesus preached repentance toward all mankind, because someday he'll put the hammer down. I need his help now as much as I ever did.
It's because not everyone wants to forgive when wronged, or part with wealth if need be, or work for a living if able, and many others, but they all revolve around something that needs pruning.
"Empirical evidence?" Well my friend, when I was a child in grade school science, I clearly remember reciting, "Matter can neither be created or destroyed." I don't think they say it that way anymore, but Paul said,
the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom.1:20
Paul simply says, what's here seems to be all there ever was. Nothing has been added to or subtracted from creation.
But Pauls point is that things about God can be known by any human at any time on earth, from what God made.....ie: the fact that life only comes from what is living, means life is eternal somewhere.
Anyway,
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. Rom.10:18
Paul isn't just referring to the Prophets. He's quoting Psa.19:1-4.