TEN COMMANDMENTS - REQUIRED OR NOT?

[SputnikBoy]

There is to be a global event on Sunday May 7 called Ten Commandments Day. Many Christian luminaries and as many politicians and celebrities as can be recruited will be participating in this event. The idea is to emphasize the need for reinstatement of these 'moral standards from God' that have all but been discarded by the U.S. and other nations.

The website address for those who might be interested is: http://www.tencommandmentsday.com

It would appear that the Seventh-day Adventist Church will be holding a similar event on the Friday evening of May 5 continuing through to Saturday May 6.

What say? Has the moral decline of the U.S. and other countries over the years anything at all to do with the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) having been tossed out or otherwise ignored?

Your comments, please.

 

[Imagican]

Sput,

I'll bite.

IMO, the largest single reason for the moral decline in our country is more a matter of the 'invasion' of masses of immigrants. As cultures collide and mingle, much of what determines morality becomes blurry and indistinct. Acceptance of these 'others' requires that their behavior be accepted or condoned also.

And it's not really the Ten Commandments that have the ability to determine morality, it's God. As technology advances it seems that the numbers of those that have NO affiliation with God increase. No doubt, we are witnessing a severe change in the beliefs of the masses.

And, obeying the Ten Commandments CANNOT be accomplished by man to start with. If it were possible for man to live by the Ten Commandments without fault, there would have been no need for Christ to suffer for our Salvation. As Christ stated, anyone that breaks the least of the Commandments is guilty of breaking them all. This being the case, it is impossible for man to live by them without failing.

When Christ was asked about which Commandment was MOST important, what was His answer? Therein lies THE answer. If one were to learn how to love God above all else and their neighbor as themselves at this point only would one be able to fulfill their obligation to the commandments. Without this knowledge FIRST, it is utterly impossible to even begin to follow the law for any purpose that matters.

And following the Commandments for the sake of the Commandments themselves means NOTHING. If we don't obey them for the purpose that they were offered, then they become worthless acts of no accord. In other words, there are many that believe that obeying the Commandments will offer them some kind of 'holiness'. This is false thinking. If the commandments are not obeyed out of love for God and neighbor, following them is NOT going to offer them anything other than guilt each time they stumble.

 

[Guest]

What say? Has the moral decline of the U.S. and other countries over the years anything at all to do with the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) having been tossed out or otherwise ignored?

You're asking a lot, and before I can answer, I need some more information.

1. How are you measuring or determining the 'collective morality' of the United States?

Once you've got that, then

2. What evidence do you have for a 'decline' in this morality? What does it even mean for a 'collective morality' to decline?

Are you trying to say that there are fewer people following Christian morals? Not good enough - there are millions of interpretations of Christian morals too.

Heck, what do you mean?

 

[starbyfar]

IMO, the largest single reason for the moral decline in our country is more a matter of the 'invasion' of masses of immigrants.

You have a lot of nerve. Are you telling me its the immigrants that move here that are causing the gays to come out and seek more rights, and the immigrants that are pushing for abortion? What about the degrading crap you hear on the radio glorifying all things satan.. again more immigrants? And the blatant violence and acceptance of sexual immorality on tv.. let me guess.. the immigrants running the networks?

Please don't take offense to what I say, but your ignorance befuddles me. You must've had a seriously horrible run-in with an bad immigrant that caused you to think this way. You should explore that, because your prejudiceness is sickening.

This country has never been 'moral'.

What say? Has the moral decline of the U.S. and other countries over the years anything at all to do with the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) having been tossed out or otherwise ignored?

Somewhat yes. The 10 commandments are just meant to show us how we don't measure up, and how we need Christ. I don't however agree with organizing a '10 commandments' day. It seems like they're trying to show people that they need to follow the 10 commandments as opposed to telling them its impossible, so instead of condemning yourself to an imperfect life ending in spiritual death.. here's how you gain eternal life. But i'd like to read up more on this. Its interesting. Seventh Day Adventist rub me wrong though.. there are some serious problems with their doctrine.

 

[Imagican]

IMO, the largest single reason for the moral decline in our country is more a matter of the 'invasion' of masses of immigrants.

You have a lot of nerve. Are you telling me its the immigrants that move here that are causing the gays to come out and seek more rights, and the immigrants that are pushing for abortion? What about the degrading crap you hear on the radio glorifying all things satan.. again more immigrants? And the blatant violence and acceptance of sexual immorality on tv.. let me guess.. the immigrants running the networks?

Please don't take offense to what I say, but your ignorance befuddles me. You must've had a seriously horrible run-in with an bad immigrant that caused you to think this way. You should explore that, because your prejudiceness is sickening.

This country has never been 'moral'.



[quote:b228d]What say? Has the moral decline of the U.S. and other countries over the years anything at all to do with the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) having been tossed out or otherwise ignored?

Somewhat yes. The 10 commandments are just meant to show us how we don't measure up, and how we need Christ. I don't however agree with organizing a '10 commandments' day. It seems like they're trying to show people that they need to follow the 10 commandments as opposed to telling them its impossible, so instead of condemning yourself to an imperfect life ending in spiritual death.. here's how you gain eternal life. But i'd like to read up more on this. Its interesting. Seventh Day Adventist rub me wrong though.. there are some serious problems with their doctrine.[/quote:b228d]

I don't know you or where you're from. But the place that I live and the places that I've visited are prime examples of what I offer. All one needs to do is watch the news, travel to 'their' side of town, or even visit the local schools to 'see' the effects that I mention. If you choose to ignore this for the sake of 'political correctness', that is of course your choice.

I am not racist to ANY degree. But, facts are facts and the 'fact' is that many many many of our recent immigrants come from countries where violence and poverty are rampant and an 'accepted' way of life. They bring it with them in their attempt to flee from it. Their children are allowed to attend the same public schools as the rest of us and their influence, being so much more aggressive, is capable of 'forcing' others to accept these degenerate attitudes and behavior.

I didn't make the world or the people in it. I am plenty capable of discernment concerning others and our governments insistence that we 'accept' these others brings along with it the acceptance of their behavior. Many of these take advantage of the freedom offered upon their arrival and use it to their individual advantage in total disregard to the country as a whole. They revel in their nationality even after choosing to come to this country and live. Instead of choosing to become americans, they would rather simply USE america for their own benefit while continuing the same behavior that is destroying the countries from which they flee. Gang mentality. This RESPECT thing. Ghetto mentality. Are these not imported mentality? And most often these seem to be utterly devoid of ANYTHING righteous. They shoot each other with elaborate crosses worn around their necks as if the symbols that they wear are a mockery of Christ rather than any remembrance of what they stand for.

And if hearing this 'sickens' you, it ought to. But don't blame the messenger, place the blame where it belongs; Your government's insistence that we should 'accept' those that perpetuate these kinds of behavior and the parents that are teaching it.

I have visited the churches. I find few, if ANY of those that I refer to in attendance. Partly because many are forced into 'hidding' because of their 'illegal' status I'm sure. But even if 'legal' I doubt that this would change much. It's hard to live like a 'gangster' throughout the week and then step into a church and face our Father on Sunday morning.

So, it's not the 'throwing out' of the Ten Commandments that is bringing about the moral decline of our nation. It's more a matter of the influx of those that seem 'hellbent' on the destruction of the 'american' culture and it's replacement by somekind of generic oneness containing drugs, violence, prostitution, theft, and just general degenerate behavior.

And yes, as we are forced by those in control to 'accept' these that bring this to our shores, we then are left with a need to protect the 'rights' of gays, and any other sorts of degenerates that are growing in numbers dailiy. This isn't the attitude or attributes that made this country what it is. These are those which are destroying what it once was.

 

[Guest]

Imagican, you too are throwing around terms like 'collective morality' as if you were sure everyone shared your definition. Perhaps you could address my above questions?

 

[SputnikBoy]

What say? Has the moral decline of the U.S. and other countries over the years anything at all to do with the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20) having been tossed out or otherwise ignored?

You're asking a lot, and before I can answer, I need some more information.

1. How are you measuring or determining the 'collective morality' of the United States?

I'm not measuring or determining anything, Cosmo. I merely presented information that a global Ten Commandments Day is to be held on May 7. The reasons given by many Christian participants is that too many who claim to be Christians don't give a hoot about God's commandments ...hence a day to draw attention to them. I personally am not 'pro' or 'anti' or in any way involved with this forthcoming event. I'll merely watch on with interest.

Once you've got that, then

2. What evidence do you have for a 'decline' in this morality? What does it even mean for a 'collective morality' to decline?

You haven't noticed a decline in morality? Do you live in a cave? Then again ...there is the possibility that maybe you're young and have grown up not knowing any different to the 'immoral norm'. Young or not, I assume that you have a brain with which to reason.

Are you trying to say that there are fewer people following Christian morals? Not good enough - there are millions of interpretations of Christian morals too.

I would give a resounding "Yes!" to the first part of your question. I'm not too sure about the second part of your question, however.

Heck, what do you mean?

What do I mean about what? Again ...there's to be a globalized Ten Commandments Day to be held on May 7. I heve nothing to do with it other than as an observer. Do YOU have any thoughts on this forthcoming event ?

 

[Guest]

I'm not measuring or determining anything, Cosmo. I merely presented information that a global Ten Commandments Day is to be held on May 7. The reasons given by many Christian participants is that too many who claim to be Christians don't give a hoot about God's commandments ...hence a day to draw attention to them. I personally am not 'pro' or 'anti' or in any way involved with this forthcoming event. I'll merely watch on with interest.

No, you very clearly stated that your god's morality has "all but been discarded by the U.S. and other nations." You are making a clear, specific claim in addition to presenting information about this event. Are you now retracting this claim?

You haven't noticed a decline in morality? Do you live in a cave? Then again ...there is the possibility that maybe you're young and have grown up not knowing any different to the 'immoral norm'. Young or not, I assume that you have a brain with which to reason.

Watch the ad hominem attacks.

You're upset because you feel that fewer people are following your god's laws and morals. I will repeat my questions, because you chose to ignore them:

1) What does it mean for a country to have a 'collective morality'?

2) How are you measuring or determining this morality?

and, now...

3) How is it that you believe the status quo is an 'immoral norm'?

[quote:9cae4]Are you trying to say that there are fewer people following Christian morals? Not good enough - there are millions of interpretations of Christian morals too.

I would give a resounding "Yes!" to the first part of your question. I'm not too sure about the second part of your question, however.[/quote:9cae4]

If there are millions of interpretations of christian morality, what reason is there to be upset if fewer (or more) people start following a given interpretation?

What do I mean about what? Again ...there's to be a globalized Ten Commandments Day to be held on May 7. I heve nothing to do with it other than as an observer. Do YOU have any thoughts on this forthcoming event ?

Personally? I think it's a foolish idea. But we can discuss that later; for now I'm interested in your responses. ;)

 

[SputnikBoy]

I'm not measuring or determining anything, Cosmo. I merely presented information that a global Ten Commandments Day is to be held on May 7. The reasons given by many Christian participants is that too many who claim to be Christians don't give a hoot about God's commandments ...hence a day to draw attention to them. I personally am not 'pro' or 'anti' or in any way involved with this forthcoming event. I'll merely watch on with interest.

No, you very clearly stated that your god's morality has "all but been discarded by the U.S. and other nations." You are making a clear, specific claim in addition to presenting information about this event. Are you now retracting this claim?

I was actually speaking for those who see fit to present a Ten Commandments Day such as this. Again, it is not ME who is responsible for this. THEY see a discarding of the Ten Commandments as having had an adverse moral effect on the U.S. and other Christian nations.

As for me, however, I do believe that living by the priciples of Jesus would most certainly result in a better, more loving, more caring society. We could do - and have done - far worse. As for the Ten Commandments and a 'returning' to them ...having a special day is rather meaningless since those commands are intended to be written on to our hearts. If they are not there to begin with, then 'a day' commemorating them isn't going to make any difference, is it? If you happen to be atheist (is there such a thing as someone who can prove NO God?) then nothing I have to say on this issue will suffice ...now, will it?

You haven't noticed a decline in morality? Do you live in a cave? Then again ...there is the possibility that maybe you're young and have grown up not knowing any different to the 'immoral norm'. Young or not, I assume that you have a brain with which to reason.

Watch the ad hominem attacks.

Sorry. That was not intended as an ad hominem attack. It was intended to imply that anyone with a brain will REASON for themselves what is immoral and what isn't ...despite their having been born and raised in such a culture (one that is basically immoral). I can see why you would have misinterpreted that remark but it honestly was not intended in such a way as to insult.

You're upset because you feel that fewer people are following your god's laws and morals.

So why does that upset you? And why am I not allowed to be upset?

I will repeat my questions, because you chose to ignore them:

1) What does it mean for a country to have a 'collective morality'?

I don't know.

2) How are you measuring or determining this morality?

I'm not.

and, now...

3) How is it that you believe the status quo is an 'immoral norm'?

Back to the brain issue. Feet for dancing. Hands for clapping. Eyes for seeing. Brain for reasoning.

[quote:91c88][quote:91c88]Are you trying to say that there are fewer people following Christian morals? Not good enough - there are millions of interpretations of Christian morals too.

I would give a resounding "Yes!" to the first part of your question. I'm not too sure about the second part of your question, however.[/quote:91c88]

If there are millions of interpretations of christian morality, what reason is there to be upset if fewer (or more) people start following a given interpretation?

We don't necessarily need 'Christian morality'. Morality is morality and each of us know the difference between right and wrong. Christians are not the only people privvy to that information.

What do I mean about what? Again ...there's to be a globalized Ten Commandments Day to be held on May 7. I heve nothing to do with it other than as an observer. Do YOU have any thoughts on this forthcoming event ?

Personally? I think it's a foolish idea. But we can discuss that later; for now I'm interested in your responses. ;)

Well, for better or for worse, I've given them. [/quote:91c88]

 

[Guest]

I was actually speaking for those who see fit to present a Ten Commandments Day such as this. Again, it is not ME who is responsible for this. THEY see a discarding of the Ten Commandments as having had an adverse moral effect on the U.S. and other Christian nations.

Fair enough.

As for me, however, I do believe that living by the priciples of Jesus would most certainly result in a better, more loving, more caring society. We could do - and have done - far worse.

Any evidence for either of these claims?

As for the Ten Commandments and a 'returning' to them ...having a special day is rather meaningless since those commands are intended to be written on to our hearts. If they are not there to begin with, then 'a day' commemorating them isn't going to make any difference, is it? If you happen to be atheist (is there such a thing as someone who can prove NO God?) then nothing I have to say on this issue will suffice ...now, will it?[/color]

No, it is not logically possible to prove there is no god. Fortunately, that's not remotely the position that the atheist holds. ;)

Sorry. That was not intended as an ad hominem attack. It was intended to imply that anyone with a brain will REASON for themselves what is immoral and what isn't ...despite their having been born and raised in such a culture (one that is basically immoral).

1. It is demonstrably untrue that all humans are capable of reasoning rationally and developing sound morals on their own.

2. You have still provided no justification for your claim that this society is "basically immoral".

So why does that upset you? And why am I not allowed to be upset?

Never did I say that I was upset or that you were not allowed to be upset.

Back to the brain issue. Feet for dancing. Hands for clapping. Eyes for seeing. Brain for reasoning.

Once again, you're presenting this as if it were obvious and clear. Well, I'm telling you that it's not. Provide some evidence that the nation is, on the whole, immoral.

We don't necessarily need 'Christian morality'. Morality is morality and each of us know the difference between right and wrong.

Demonstrably untrue. See above.

Christians are not the only people privvy to that information.

I'll agree there. ;)

 

[SputnikBoy]

Man ...if you're stateside, don't you ever sleep? I'll see if I can get back with you later.

 

[Guest]

Man ...if you're stateside, don't you ever sleep? I'll see if I can get back with you later.

There are some advantages to being a college student. ;)

 

[Heidi]

Jesus fulfilled the law for us. If one has love for God, then he las love for his brother which means he will not harm his brother and therefore keep the commandments. Again, being a Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone from rescuing us froma burning fire.

 

[Imagican]

And Heidi has a point that would do one well to heed.

If we are bound by the Ten Commandments as given to the Hebrews; we are condemned just as they were. For we have already been told by Christ Himself that it is impossible with man to follow them without fail. Salvation, redemption and forgiveness are NOT conducive to following them nor can we follow them to the degree that it would take to be 'accepted' by God. Therefore, let us learn to LOVE God above all else and our neighbor as ourselves and in THIS way we will follow the Ten Commandments to the 'best' of our ability. NOT for the sake of the Commandments themselves, but for the 'PURPOSE' that they were instituted to begin with.

 

[Guest]

Jesus fulfilled the law for us. If one has love for God, then he las love for his brother which means he will not harm his brother and therefore keep the commandments.

What about the Crusades? Men filled with love for their god went out and slaughtered millions of their brothers.

Again, being a Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone from rescuing us froma burning fire.

To use your analogy, billions of people have been able to rescue themselves and have lived perfectly happy, fulfilled lives without 'assistance'. ;)

 

[Guest]

And Heidi has a point that would do one well to heed.

If we are bound by the Ten Commandments as given to the Hebrews; we are condemned just as they were. For we have already been told by Christ Himself that it is impossible with man to follow them without fail...

A dark, dreary picture you paint. Billions of people alive today do not consider themselves bound by your commandments and many - myself included - still lead happy, fulfilled, moral lives regardless.

 

[MrVersatile48]

I'm sure 1 of the Christian TV channels will show brilliant UK evangelist J John's series on the 10 Commandments, which he's used worldwide to present the glorious good news gospel of salvation, by the sheer grace of God, thru faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ - as per Romans 3, Galatians 2:15-16, Ephesians 2:8-9, etc

Romans 3 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society

Romans 3

God's Faithfulness

1What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?
2Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God.
3What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness?
4Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
"So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge."[a]

5But if our unrighteousness brings out God's righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.)
6Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world?
7Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"
8Why not sayâ€â€as we are being slanderously reported as saying and as some claim that we sayâ€â€"Let us do evil that good may result"? Their condemnation is deserved.

No One is Righteous

9What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin.

10As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."[c]
13"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."[d]
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."[e]
14"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."[f]
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16ruin and misery mark their ways,
17and the way of peace they do not know."[g]
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."[h]
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

Righteousness Through Faith

21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunishedâ€â€
26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith.
28For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law.
29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too,
30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.
31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.


Timely Word 4 Today too:-

Today's Scripture

http://www.arcamax.com/ttb-yr.html




Weekly Meditation

Life through Christ

Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him!

For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Romans 5:9-11 NIV


Galatians 2:15-16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


15"We who are Jews by birth and not 'Gentile sinners' 16know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithâ€â€and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God 9not by works, so that no one can boast.




The OT Law, as Paul explains, is used in God's eternal plan of salvation - which He 'planned before He created the world' - as, 'a schoolmaster/guardian to lead us to awareness of our need of Christ as Saviour & Lord of life'

God bless!

Ian

 

[SputnikBoy]

Jesus fulfilled the law for us. If one has love for God, then he las love for his brother which means he will not harm his brother and therefore keep the commandments. Again, being a Christian takes about as much work as thanking someone from rescuing us froma burning fire.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, Heidi ...this means then that you honor the day that God blessed at Creation as a matter of course? Good for you, that's the way it should be.

 

[SputnikBoy]

And Heidi has a point that would do one well to heed.

If we are bound by the Ten Commandments as given to the Hebrews; we are condemned just as they were. For we have already been told by Christ Himself that it is impossible with man to follow them without fail...

A dark, dreary picture you paint. Billions of people alive today do not consider themselves bound by your commandments and many - myself included - still lead happy, fulfilled, moral lives regardless.

That is so true, Cosmo ...I couldn't agree with you more. Heidi and Imagican who also don't seem to believe in conscious adherence to God's commands appear to be in agreement with you ...even if they would vehemently disagree with that line of thought. I'm sure that MANY nonChristians live their lives totally unawares that they are pretty well keeping commandments 5 through 10. They don't kill, they don't steal, they don't commit adultery, etc.

What then is the difference between 'the atheist' and the 'Christian'? Judging by a number of posters on this forum ...nothing at all! Just give 'lip service' to God and no further effort is necessary it would seem. The difference IS that 'the atheist' doesn't show allegiance to God. They may well 'keep' commandments 5-10 but the one thing that they DON'T do is to 'keep' commandments 1-4! Nor do some of the posters on this forum it would seem. They seem to have a special dislike for command #4!

 

[Guest]

That is so true, Cosmo ...I couldn't agree with you more. Heidi and Imagican who also don't seem to believe in conscious adherence to God's commands appear to be in agreement with you ...even if they would vehemently disagree with that line of thought. I'm sure that MANY nonChristians live their lives totally unawares that they are pretty well keeping commandments 5 through 10. They don't kill, they don't steal, they don't commit adultery, etc.

Well, the problem I have with the 10 commandments is that it is very easy for us to think of situations in which the morally right thing to do would be to violate them.

For example, if you could travel back in time to the year 1910 and kill Hitler as a child, would you? The temptation to prevent over 15 million deaths is strong indeed, and I bet you that most people would jump at this chance.

Or, if you had a mentally unstable friend who was planning to kill someone, would you sneak into his house and steal his gun? Again, I think that most people would.

There are so, so many more exceptions. While the 10 commandments are probably a good general guideline for most people, because of these situations - and others like them - I would never claim them to be an absolute standard to live by.

What then is the difference between 'the atheist' and the 'Christian'? Judging by a number of posters on this forum ...nothing at all! Just give 'lip service' to God and no further effort is necessary it would seem. The difference IS that 'the atheist' doesn't show allegiance to God. They may well 'keep' commandments 5-10 but the one thing that they DON'T do is to 'keep' commandments 1-4! Nor do some of the posters on this forum it would seem. They seem to have a special dislike for command #4!

Fair enough. ;)