The 6th seal

[Cameron]

My people have ideas that the seals of Revelation are related to God’s wrath or somehow they confuse wrath with trials and persecutions. The first mention of God’s wrath in respect to this series of seals/trumpets/bowls actually occurs in the 5th seal when the martyrs cry out to God and ask Him when He will begin His wrath?

The sixth seal then describes the darkening of the sun and moon and the stars “falling†as the sky is pealed back to reveal what is beyond. All the tribes of the earth see what is beyond the sky. They see God and the lamb and recognize His anger for they declare that the wrath of the Lamb is at hand. You don’t see the face of Him who sits on the throne with out seeing God.

Notice that the term wrath of the Lamb is used instead of God’s wrath. It is to emphasize the action of Christ. It is not that far of a stretch to suggest that Christ is actually seen at the 6th bowl. Something has been going on, as evidenced in the 5th bowl that has built up to the 6th bowl when God moves to act.

What happened next is recorded in Chapter 7; a bunch of Israelites are being protected and countless numbers of people arrive in Heaven to be comforted by Jesus. Did you know that the same term describing this group in Rev. 7:9 is the same term earlier describing ALL Christians in Rev. 5:9 as those for whom Jesus died?

Now consider Matthew 24. Jesus is describing the very same things that He is describing in His Revelation to John. Speaking to His disciples, there are trials and tribulations that they must watch out for and then after those days, the sun and moon will be darkened and the stars will peal back and expose something behind the sky just as Jesus is seen coming in the clouds. There are a number of references to Heaven being cloud-like from our earthly perspective. (Not that it really is, but from our current physical bodies, it appears so. There are the clouds that overshadowed Jesus and three of His disciples on the Mt. of transfiguration. God revealed Himself to Israel as a pillar of cloud, just to name a few). In both passages the angels go out and are involved in rescuing/delivering/saving people.

 

[maranatha_man]

"My people"???

You are the Patriarch of a tribe, or cult??

 

[Ajax 777]

Perhaps just the leader of a Church. Let us not go dealing out death with our words anymore.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

I agree with what you said Cameron. Also it talks about every mountain and island being moved out of their place. What kind of force would it take to do all that? Think about it, there wont be a house , freeway overpass , or one stone left on top of each other as Jesus put it. This earth is in for world of hurt when Jesus shows up.

LDR

 

[quadding101]

The sixth seal is the rapture. Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapture. Some have told me this was when Jesus was coming back to set up His kingdom but the setting is wrong. When Jesus comes back to set up His kingdom He will be on a white horse with a host of heaven behind him and He will go on to stand on the mount outside Jerusalem. Matthew 29:30 says that the tribes will see Jesus in the air, (Jesus will come back where he ascended in Israel and the Jews will see Him in the air and probably because of TV the rest of the world will see Him). Zechariah 12:10 when the Jews see the one whom they pierced (Jesus) they will know Him and accept Him. The question is, If the rapture takes place at the beginning of the seven year period how will the Jews accept the antichrist and Jesus at the same time? They will not accept both at the same time so that means that Jesus will have to come later. Jesus will come after the antichrist has set on the throne in the temple and declared himself god and the Jew's eyes will be opened as to who he really is and then Jesus can come and there will be no doubt as to who He is. It will be right before God pours His wrath upon the earth. I hope this helps u.

 

[LastDayRemnant]

The sixth seal is the rapture. Matthew 24:29-31 is the rapture. Some have told me this was when Jesus was coming back to set up His kingdom but the setting is wrong. When Jesus comes back to set up His kingdom He will be on a white horse with a host of heaven behind him and He will go on to stand on the mount outside Jerusalem. Matthew 29:30 says that the tribes will see Jesus in the air, (Jesus will come back where he ascended in Israel and the Jews will see Him in the air and probably because of TV the rest of the world will see Him). Zechariah 12:10 when the Jews see the one whom they pierced (Jesus) they will know Him and accept Him. The question is, If the rapture takes place at the beginning of the seven year period how will the Jews accept the antichrist and Jesus at the same time? They will not accept both at the same time so that means that Jesus will have to come later. Jesus will come after the antichrist has set on the throne in the temple and declared himself god and the Jew's eyes will be opened as to who he really is and then Jesus can come and there will be no doubt as to who He is. It will be right before God pours His wrath upon the earth. I hope this helps u.

That is what Cameron and i both say is that the sixth seal is the rapture.
And as far as everyone seeing Jesus on Television. They won't have to, because the whole world will see his coming in the air.

Read what he said it will be like.

Matt, 24
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And the sixth seal describes the same event
Rev,
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Everyone on earth will witness it.

 

[maranatha_man]

...but then again this leads to the question of how persons stationed at points around a spherical earth will be able to see a single figure, appearing at only one position....??

 

[LastDayRemnant]

...but then again this leads to the question of how persons stationed at points around a spherical earth will be able to see a single figure, appearing at only one position....??

We are talking about Jesus here who said that every eye would see him.

Matthew ,24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

He said it so i'm sure he can make it happen.

 

[Cameron]

MANY PEOPLE....

Can trust a spell checker!

Cameron

 

[Cameron]

Every eye will see Him ... (I hope my spell checker works...)

Every eye will see Him in the context can still be a hyperbole or literal or even hyperliteral and still maintain the meaning. Some times "the whole world" refers to the known Roman world or the world in general or the entire globe.

Why does maranatha_man bring this up?

 

[maranatha_man]

Every eye will see Him ... (I hope my spell checker works...)

Every eye will see Him in the context can still be a hyperbole or literal or even hyperliteral and still maintain the meaning. Some times "the whole world" refers to the known Roman world or the world in general or the entire globe.

Why does maranatha_man bring this up?

For exactly that reason! Ok....I've really got no problem w/ the (qualified) explanation you've given concerning this. :D It could be hyperbole, or the "whole" of a particular group of persons "on the Earth", or maybe all of humanity will have a clear "mind's eye picture" or passing knowledge of the physical appearance (personhood) of the Christ??

It just seems to be one of those things that may need a "feasibility study" first, if ya know what I mean. :P

...along with the other one I wonder about:

By what means or mechanism will only certain, select individuals; (discreet packets of flesh, blood, bone tissue, DNA matter etc if you will) just....suddenly...levitate up into the air??? C'mon seriously...another feasibility study request., maybe, especially since the term for this (rapture) more implies an emotional state, or at best, the somewhat archaic "to flee by boat". ;-)

Not meaning to stray too far off-topic here...

 

[Cameron]

Fascinating discussion. Thanks for bringing it up.
The "rapture" is a Latin word describing being gathered together /caught up. It's a picture of Resurrection. Jesus rose and conquered death and so will those who trust in what He did. Resurrection is a restoration to a state God designed and intended for man; the same state Adam and Eve enjoyed before the Fall in innocence, except that we won't be ignorant as they were... incocent yes.

 

[Vic C.]

Hi Cameron... nice thread you started. Also, welcome to the Forums. I look forward to further discussion on this.

While a seven year timespan is not carved in stone for me, I am almost certain that the 'Rapture' will be just prior to the Wrath of God ( Rev 6:17 ) and somewhere near the end of the sixth seal. ( Rev 7:9 ) I base that not only on those verses, but also from Matthew, Paul's Thessalonians letters and various other passages.

 

[hopefearmercy]

why not God?

Matthew ,24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Why is not the "son of man"..proclaimed by the author as God?

hopefearmercy

 

[Vic C.]

1- Jesus often spoke in third person.

2- this particular Forum is for discussing eschatology and in this thread we are discussing the Sixth Seal events of Revelation. Please limit your posts here to the subject matter at hand.

Thanks. :-D

 

[Ajax 777]

What would the large mountain, all ablaze, called "Wormwood" refer to, do you think? Do you suppose it might be that large asteroid astronomers say is headed for a collision with the Earth? Or do you think that might be the one referred to as God's fist striking the Earth?

Just mindless curiosities.... :-?

 

[Vic C.]

12 And I saw when He opened the sixth seal. And behold, a great earthquake occurred. And the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair; and the moon became as blood;
13 and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree being shaken by a great wind casts its unripe figs.
14 And the heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up. And every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
LITV

Of course God is more than capable of using and asteroid to fulfill this vision.

 

[Cameron]

Ajax777
From some of your posts, I perceive some skepticism. Skepticism is good as long as it gets you searching for the truth rather than bolstering preconceptions. The place to start with skepticism, is how you deal with Genesis 1 through 11. Do you accept it as literal history or alegory? For all the "End Times" eschatology topics relate directly back to Genesis 1 to 11. God created man in His image. God made man perfect and eternally related to Himself originally. God made man to dwell in a perfect creation to experiece the wind on your skin and sunshine on your face) as well as have a spirit to relate to God on that level as well. Sin, which was Adam and Eve thinking they knew better than God, entered the world and:

1) resulted in death entering the world - Adam and Eve and their offspring would have to die.

2) the creation they lived in would also need to reflect their faults as a consequence. Hence the world and universe are not always nice places. Of course the world we live in today is drastically altered from the global Flood.

3) God set out to restore and reconcile man's relationship to Him by promising a redeemer.

End Times study is looking at how God is ultimately reconciling man to Himself. That is why Revelation is actually titled the Revelation or revealing of Jesus Christ because in that book we get a full scoped image of what Jesus has done and will do to finally eliminate the consequence of sin and death. He made it possible at the cross, conquered death at the Resurrection and makes everything a literal realtiy at the end of the Bible.

Now you bring up items that you, my guess is, have trouble with from a "modern scientific method" that does not see a "need" for a Creator. This is a philospohic, hence religious, preconception about modern science whether you or anybody else likes it or not. But just as the painter is different from his painting, or the potter different from his clay pot, so is God, the Creator different from creation, time-space continuum. He does not need to operate within or according to its configuration for everything about it was originally conceived and implemented by Him.

So whether a real asteroid hits the earth is less relavent that you think. It could easily be. But then, clues are often given to us by the names given. Sometimes the name points to a greater reality just as I explained in the 6th bowl topic regarding "great" Euphrates and "great" Babylon. One must remember that even in Revelation we are reading someone else's mail. But even then, it is meant ot be understandable to those already familiar with the rest of God's Word. Part of the "imagery" is already defined elsewhere and, I beleive is employed, by God to obscure the book's meaning from outsiders. But all the issues you bring up have good answers and deep meaning when connected to the rest of Scripture (God's coherent Word).

Rapture would then be understood as a resurrection, which is a completely reconciled created being in proper relationship with his Creator. So rather than being mindless curiosities, they become timeless truths, oftentimes trenchant in how they portay events.

For instance the darkening of the sun, moon and peeling back of the stars can make perfect sense, even literally if you consider:

1)The Creator is not part of the creations

2) He could easily peel back the sky like a scroll to reveal an opening into another extra-space/time coninuum place.

3) The Creator is greater than the created. His "glory" is incomparable to the creations fallen "glory". So as the Creator approaches, the sun and reflective aspect of the moon must dim. This, incidently is related to the concept of "hell" or the lake of fire being also called the "outer darkness". For when this place (not part of our universe) is compared to Go'd perfect glory, it is nothing but darkness.

Each human has an opportunity today to make ammends with the Creator. We only need to accept His offer on faith that He will redeem us and move His Spirit into us making what was once dead (walking dead) truely alive for the first time. Though we still live fallen we are forgiven. We know we will one day live completely reconciled and restored if we just forsake our own "gods" of self, materialism, etc and seek Him who created us.

 

[Ajax 777]

Sir, if I am skeptical, it is because I know how easily I myself have consistently been led astray by leaning to my human understanding of His Truth....

I tell you, I know I strayed. I have not looked in the right ways or in the right place for quite some time now....but this is all very personal and I see no need of boring you with any further details. Just understand I am moved if you recognize my skeptical tone by the "quiet desperation" it somewhat hides, but I am able to seek godly Wisdom when it is right with Him for me to make such efforts....not simply because I WANT IT NOW....

So yes, I am a skeptic. No, I'm afraid what it will require for me to "make amends" shall remain undisclosed....but it isn't this simple for me anymore.

Love Him with all your heart and serve only Him. Remember to try to love others with the love He fills you up with....just don't ever believe it's truly possible to "fake it". If so...well, one can deceive oneself as well as any Devil, I tell you.....

*(shrugs)*

 

[Cameron]

I encourage all of you on this forum to seek to find your end times understanding ONLY from the Bible. Many have read many books on the topic, and listened to tapes, sat in classes, etc. I was there, I've heard it. I was fed up with it all when I realized I was spending too much time studying other's views rather than the Holy Scripture. Do you all realize how blessed we are? We've got the very words of God in the Bible and we can understand how to read it, how to understand metaphors and take things in their natural sense,etc. We can learn how to quote Scripture in context rather than what some teacher says.

This is why I wrote about about building an End Times doctrine. It's my "how-to", my journey that shows how easy it is to do it and encourages you to really do it, really study the Bible, really get to know pertenant passages.