The 7 Kings of Rev. 17:10

[Stormcrow]

{9} "Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, {10} and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while. Revelation 17:9-10 (NASB)

When John writes "here is the mind which has wisdom" he's telling you something that he wants you to know, but wants to keep hidden from those not inclined to think much about it. You'll see this same phrase when he talks about the mark of the beast in Revelation 13:

{18} Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six. Revelation 13:18 (NASB)

What's interesting about this word "wisdom" is that it's used only four times in the book of Revelation, and you've just read two of those uses above.

So what's the point?

John wants his readers to know who these kings are without tipping his hand to the one that was alive during the circulation of this letter to the 7 churches, as he was imprisoned during this persecution.

So who are the kings?

The scarlet beast with 7 mountains and 7 kings is Rome. The 7 kings are the first 7 Caesars ("Caesar" is Latin for "king") of Rome. These Caesars are - in order of appearance:

1. Julius,
2. Augustus,
3. Tiberius,
4. Caligula,
5. Claudius,
6. Nero, and
7. Galba.

At the time of the writing of Revelation, 5 of these kings had died. These were:

1. Julius,
2. Augustus,
3. Tiberius,
4. Caligula,
5. Claudius.

Nero, the letters of whose name adds up to both 666 and 616, was the Caesar alive at the time of the writing of Revelation.

The 7th Caesar - the one whom John wrote "has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while" is Galba, whose reign over the empire lasted only 6 months. He was replaced by Vespasian which brought to an end the "year of the 4 Caesars": the civil war that erupted in the Empire almost tearing it apart. This (the Roman civil war) is the "fatal wound" that the "beast from the sea" in Rev. 13 survives.

The identification of Nero as the king "who is", places the writing of Revelation between the time Nero began persecuting the church after the July 64 fire that destroyed much of Rome and the time of Nero's death on June 11, 68 AD: a period of 42 months:

More later...

 

[Hitch]

Youze got sumpthin against Italians???

 

[Stormcrow]

Youze got sumpthin against Italians???

Nope. I'm an equal opportunity "playa hata." :D

 

[Stormcrow]

Well, as none of our "dispy/futurist" friends want to face this thread, I thought I would move it back up anyway for those out there who enjoy truth rather than fables.

 

[reba]

You guys are so mixed up!


Rome is RCC sheesh didn't you ever listen

 

[Lehigh3]

Well, as none of our "dispy/futurist" friends want to face this thread, I thought I would move it back up anyway for those out there who enjoy truth rather than fables.

Good stuff Stormcrow. In fact, the persecutions by Nero against the Christians was largely due to the Jews. Gibbon (Edward Gibbon-Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire-Vol.1, N.Y., The Modern Library, Random House 459f) said the cause of the Neronian persecution was the Jews. "Nero was the 1st persecutor of the Christians, & his favorite actor, Aliturus, & his infamous harlot, empress, Poppea, were both Jewish proselytes; & there is little doubt that it was their slanderous & perverted information which turned Nero against the Christians. The Jews whispered their slanders against the Christians into the ears of the Roman authorities with calculated & poisonous venom." Wm. Barclay, Letters to the Seven Churches, (N.Y. Abingdon, 1957) 37.
Finally, Gentry (Before Jerusalem Fell-241) says, "The fact that the Harlot is seated on the 7- headed beast (obviously representative of Rome) indicates, not an identity with Rome, but an alliance with Rome against Christianity."

But even that alliance was going to change when the Jews rebelled against Rome & Nero!

 

[Stormcrow]

Thank you Lehigh and reba.

You ever get the feeling that some here don't want to address the clear truth of these 7 kings because - if they did - they would have to adjust their thinking about "end times?"

 

[reba]

The more convoluted and difficult we make things look the smarter we are!

Your post makes simple sense Storm.

Jerusalem is also a city with 7 hills.

 

[Sinthesis]

I personally believe the 7th Caesar is Vespasian, but it's not really that important.

 

[Stormcrow]

I personally believe the 7th Caesar is Vespasian, but it's not really that important.

Vespasian ruled for 10 years compared to Galba's 6 months. However, Vespasian would certainly fit this description:

{11} "The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction. Revelation 17:11 (NASB)

Vespasian was the general under Nero who took over for Cestius Gallus, commander of the 12th Roman Legion, whose failure to enter the city of Jerusalem when invited by those Jews who wanted no part of war with Rome led to the city's ultimate destruction:

And on the fourth day, which was the thirtieth of the month Hyperbereteus, [Tisri,] when he [Cestius Gallus] had put his army in array, he brought it into the city.

Now for the people, they were kept under by the seditious; but the seditious themselves were greatly affrighted at the good order of the Romans, and retired from the suburbs, and retreated into the inner part of the city, and into the temple.

But when Cestius was come into the city, he set the part called Bezetha, which is called Cenopolis, [or the new city,] on fire; as he did also to the timber market; after which he came into the upper city, and pitched his camp over against the royal palace; and had he but at this very time attempted to get within the walls by force, he had won the city presently, and the war had been put an end to at once; but Tyrannius Priseus, the muster-master of the army, and a great number of the officers of the horse, had been corrupted by Florus, and diverted him from that his attempt; and that was the occasion that this war lasted so very long, and thereby the Jews were involved in such incurable calamities.

In the mean time, many of the principal men of the city were persuaded by Ananus, the son of Jonathan, and invited Cestius into the city, and were about to open the gates for him; but he overlooked this offer, partly out of his anger at the Jews, and partly because he did not thoroughly believe they were in earnest;

And now it was that a horrible fear seized upon the seditious, insomuch that many of them ran out of the city, as though it were to be taken immediately; but the people upon this took courage, and where the wicked part of the city gave ground, thither did they come, in order to set open the gates, and to admit Cestius as their benefactor, who, had he but continued the siege a little longer, had certainly taken the city; but it was, I suppose, owing to the aversion God had already at the city and the sanctuary, that he was hindered from putting an end to the war that very day.

It then happened that Cestius was not conscious either how the besieged despaired of success, nor how courageous the people were for him; and so he recalled his soldiers from the place, and by despairing of any expectation of taking it, without having received any disgrace, he retired from the city, without any reason in the world.

The Works of Flavius Josephus.
​

This gave Jesus's disciples the chance they needed to flee the city before Vespasian - with his son Titus - once again besieged the city.

And when he became the 8th king - the beast who was that led the successful campaign against the Jews - he left Titus, his son and prince, to finish the job they had started, thus fulfilling this prophecy:

{26} "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. Daniel 9:26 (NASB)
​

Peace. Out.

 

[Sinthesis]

If you believe Galba was the 7th and Vespasian was the 8th, then what of Otho and Vitellius?

 

[Stormcrow]

If you believe Galba was the 7th and Vespasian was the 8th, then what of Otho and Vitellius?

Otho's status as Caesar - after he had Galba assassinated - lasted barely 3 months and was contested by Vitellius from the beginning of his exceptionally brief reign.

Of the three Caesars in the "year of the four", Galba's reign followed immediately on the heels of Nero's death while Vitellius' reign was insignificant in terms of the influence he had. Otho and Vitellius are mere asterisks in Imperial Roman history.

Otho - Roman Emperor Imperator Marcus Otho Caesar Augustus
Vitellius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Sinthesis]

Otho's status as Caesar - after he had Galba assassinated - lasted barely 3 months and was contested by Vitellius from the beginning of his exceptionally brief reign.

Of the three Caesars in the "year of the four", Galba's reign followed immediately on the heels of Nero's death while Vitellius' reign was insignificant in terms of the influence he had. Otho and Vitellius are mere asterisks in Imperial Roman history.

Otho - Roman Emperor Imperator Marcus Otho Caesar Augustus
Vitellius - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So in your opinion, what exactly would lead the author of Revelation to include Galba with the significant Caesars instead of leaving him out, as you claim he did with the insignificant Emperors Otho and Vitellius? Surely Galba is also but a mere asterisk in Imperial Roman history.

 

[Stormcrow]

Surely Galba is also but a mere asterisk in Imperial Roman history.

As noted in my previous response, his reign came right on the heels of Nero's death. He was literally the 7th king and he lasted a short time, just as John wrote. Otho and Vitellius - again - were insignificant characters - Otho for his brevity and Vitellius for his ineptitude.

The next major king would be Vespasian, as I see it.

 

[Sinthesis]

As noted in my previous response, his reign came right on the heels of Nero's death. He was literally the 7th king and he lasted a short time, just as John wrote. Otho and Vitellius - again - were insignificant characters - Otho for his brevity and Vitellius for his ineptitude.

The next major king would be Vespasian, as I see it.

So you consider Galba a major king with a reign neither inept nor brief? Otho lasted a shorter time and Vitellius' reign was longer than Galba's. Perhaps the 'continue a short space' is not about the 'reign' of the King. Perhaps there is another reason Otho and Vitellius are overlooked; a reason that would also apply to Galba, thus elevating Vespasian to the 7th position and freeing the 8th to apply to that which, according to scripture, at the time of the revelation had already been, which clearly Vespasian hadn't yet.

Rev 17:11 - And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.​

 

[Stormcrow]

So you consider Galba a major king with a reign neither inept nor brief?

No. I consider him the 7th who followed immediately on the heels of Nero's death. Does history not bear this out?

 

[n2thelight]

When John writes "here is the mind which has wisdom" he's telling you something that he wants you to know, but wants to keep hidden from those not inclined to think much about it. You'll see this same phrase when he talks about the mark of the beast in Revelation 13:What's interesting about this word "wisdom" is that it's used only four times in the book of Revelation, and you've just read two of those uses above.

So what's the point?

John wants his readers to know who these kings are without tipping his hand to the one that was alive during the circulation of this letter to the 7 churches, as he was imprisoned during this persecution.

So who are the kings?

The scarlet beast with 7 mountains and 7 kings is Rome. The 7 kings are the first 7 Caesars ("Caesar" is Latin for "king") of Rome. These Caesars are - in order of appearance:

1. Julius,
2. Augustus,
3. Tiberius,
4. Caligula,
5. Claudius,
6. Nero, and
7. Galba.

At the time of the writing of Revelation, 5 of these kings had died. These were:

1. Julius,
2. Augustus,
3. Tiberius,
4. Caligula,
5. Claudius.

Nero, the letters of whose name adds up to both 666 and 616, was the Caesar alive at the time of the writing of Revelation.

The 7th Caesar - the one whom John wrote "has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while" is Galba, whose reign over the empire lasted only 6 months. He was replaced by Vespasian which brought to an end the "year of the 4 Caesars": the civil war that erupted in the Empire almost tearing it apart. This (the Roman civil war) is the "fatal wound" that the "beast from the sea" in Rev. 13 survives.

The identification of Nero as the king "who is", places the writing of Revelation between the time Nero began persecuting the church after the July 64 fire that destroyed much of Rome and the time of Nero's death on June 11, 68 AD: a period of 42 months:

More later...

And who is the beast in the below verse?

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Also what about the kings in the next verse,who are they,and when did they reign with the beast?And when did they receive their kingdom?

Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

 

[Stormcrow]

And who is the beast in the below verse?

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

Also what about the kings in the next verse,who are they,and when did they reign with the beast?And when did they receive their kingdom?

Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast."

I see Vespasian as the beast that was: the Roman general appointed by Nero to quash the Jewish rebellion after Cestius Gallus failed to do so. He became the 8th king and went on to die from a severe intestinal disease (like Antiochus IV Epiphanes) in 79 AD.

As to the rest, look up "Decapolis."

 

[Sinthesis]

No. I consider him the 7th who followed immediately on the heels of Nero's death. Does history not bear this out?

Yes, but then given your criteria of who followed immediately on the heels of who's death, history lists Otho and Vitellius as the 8th and a theoretical 9th respectively. So clearly sequence is not the determinate factor in whether or not an Emperor gets to be a Rev head, otherwise by your own criteria Otho would have to be the 8th.

 

[Sinthesis]

I see Vespasian as the beast that was: the Roman general appointed by Nero to quash the Jewish rebellion after Cestius Gallus failed to do so. He became the 8th king and went on to die from a severe intestinal disease (like Antiochus IV Epiphanes) in 79 AD.

As to the rest, look up "Decapolis."

Will you explain exactly how Vespasian could have been "was, and is not" at the time of John's Revelation?
Also, how is it Vespasian as "the eighth" was a beast in his own right as opposed to part of the beast with the seven heads and ten horns?
Further, as there is no 8th head on the beast of Rev 17:3, why do you assume that the term "the eighth" refers to just another Caesar?

Rev 17:11 - And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. ​