The 7 Kings of Rev. 17:10

[Stormcrow]

Will you explain exactly how Vespasian could have been "was, and is not" at the time of John's Revelation?
Also, how is it Vespasian as "the eighth" was a beast in his own right as opposed to part of the beast with the seven heads and ten horns?
Further, as there is no 8th head on the beast of Rev 17:3, why do you assume that the term "the eighth" refers to just another Caesar?

Rev 17:11 - And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. ​

As also [I shall relate] how they built walls about the neighboring cities; and how Nero, upon Cestius's defeat, was in fear of the entire event of the war, and thereupon made Vespasian general in this war; and how this Vespasian, with the elder of his sons made an expedition into the country of Judea; what was the number of the Roman army that he made use of; and how many of his auxiliaries were cut off in all Galilee; and how he took some of its cities entirely, and by force, and others of them by treaty, and on terms.The Works of Flavius Josephus.

After this, [I shall relate] how, When the Jews' affairs were become very bad, Nero died, and Vespasian, when he was going to attack Jerusalem, was called back to take the government upon him; what signs happened to him relating to his gaining that government, and what mutations of government then happened at Rome, and how he was unwillingly made emperor by his soldiers;The Works of Flavius Josephus.

So Nero esteemed these circumstances as favorable omens, and saw that Vespasian's age gave him sure experience, and great skill, and that he had his sons as hostages for his fidelity to himself, and that the flourishing age they were in would make them fit instruments under their father's prudence. Perhaps also there was some interposition of Providence, which was paving the way for Vespasian's being himself emperor afterwards.The Works of Flavius Josephus.

So Vespasian sent his son Titus from Achaia, where he had been with Nero, to Alexandria, to bring back with him from thence the fifth and. the tenth legions, while he himself, when he had passed over the Hellespont, came by land into Syria, where he gathered together the Roman forces, with a considerable number of auxiliaries from the kings in that neighborhood.The Works of Flavius Josephus.

There was no other general Nero trusted more than Vespasian to finish the job Cestius Gallus started of putting down the Jewish revolt than Vespasian. Before anyone had heard of Galba, Otho, or Vitellius, Vespasian's name was known throughout the empire and by those in Syria and Judea.

Josephus recounts what he said to Vespasian when he found out Vespasian was sending him to Nero to be tried:

"Thou, O Vespasian, thinkest no more than that thou hast taken Josephus himself captive; but I come to thee as a messenger of greater tidings; for had not I been sent by God to thee, I knew what was the law of the Jews in this case and how it becomes generals to die. Dost thou send me to Nero? For why? Are Nero's successors till they come to thee still alive? Thou, O Vespasian, art Caesar and emperor, thou, and this thy son. Bind me now still faster, and keep me for thyself, for thou, O Caesar, are not only lord over me, but over the land and the sea, and all mankind; and certainly I deserve to be kept in closer custody than I now am in, in order to be punished, if I rashly affirm any thing of God." The Works of Flavius Josephus.

Certainly Josephus already viewed Vespasian as highly as Nero (flattery notwithstanding), and this was before Nero had died!

Vespasian "was" in that he was the most important figure in Judean events of that time next to Nero himself, who ordered him there. He "is not" because 3 other pretenders to the throne of Rome preceded him, Galba being the first of these and Rome's 7th king. He is the eight as far as Jewish history is concerned because of the prominent role he played in Jewish history, and IS one in the line of Caesars. I believe he fills this prophecy to the letter.

If you have someone else that better fits this prophecy, please feel free to offer your arguments in favor of him.

 

[Sinthesis]

Vespasian "was" in that he was the most important figure in Judean events of that time next to Nero himself, who ordered him there. He "is not" because 3 other pretenders to the throne of Rome preceded him, Galba being the first of these and Rome's 7th king. He is the eight as far as Jewish history is concerned because of the prominent role he played in Jewish history, and IS one in the line of Caesars. I believe he fills this prophecy to the letter.

The tense is wrong if one believes that Revelation was written prior to Nero's death. Vespasian's "was" would, according to your criteria, need to be an "is". Vespasian is the seventh as far as Jewish history is concerned as I will explain later. Also understand that "was/is-not/will-be" applied to anybody or anything stands in direct contrast to the identification of the true God as "I Am".

 

[Sinthesis]

If you have someone else that better fits this prophecy, please feel free to offer your arguments in favor of him.

Re - The 7 Kings of Rev - 17:10

Revelation Chapter 17 is concerned with the whore (Apostate Jerusalem) and the beast (Pagan Rome) along with the relationship between them. At the time of John's Revelation, Judea was in revolt against the Roman Empire. The revolt began under Emperor Nero, then Vespasian was Emperor as the revolt was put down and Roman authority re-established over Judea. Therefore Galba, Otho & Vitellius never exercised dominion over Judea, thus they are not considered 'Kings of the Beast' where 'The Whore' is concerned.

Rev 17:10 - And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.​

The Seven Kings who did have authority over Judea:

(five are fallen)

• Julius (of the Roman Republic)
• Augustus
• Tiberius
• Caligula
• Claudius

(one is)

• Nero

(the other is not yet come)

• Vespasian

(when he cometh, he must continue a short space)
After Vespasian was declared Emperor he remained in Judea for only a little while, then left to consolidate his power for Egypt and eventually Rome.

Rev 17:11 - And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.​

The Pagan Roman Empire (beast), which had dominion over Jerusalem (was), but lost it during the Jewish Revolt (is not), (is the eighth) in that 'the eighth' signifies the beginning of a 'new week'. The evidence to the Jews of an ending and therefore new beginning was the destruction of Jerusalem, including the second temple, and the rejection and judgment from God that this seemed to indicate. Rome regained it's dominion through the revival in Judea of the authority once exercised by the seven Caesars (is of the seven) who had reigned while the second temple stood. Thus 'the eighth' signifies the corporate beast of the Roman Empire beginning anew a period of subjugation for Judea and diaspora for God's people. Yet even the victorious Pagan Roman Empire was doomed to fall (goeth into perdition).

 

[reba]

Well some folks dont allow privet messages

I want to tell you guys, Sinthesis, Stormcrow, a lot of what you say is like over my head. Sure is nice to read a conversation that has value and is not clouded with personal jabs.

 

[Sam21]

Well some folks dont allow privet messages

I want to tell you guys, Sinthesis, Stormcrow, a lot of what you say is like over my head. Sure is nice to read a conversation that has value and is not clouded with personal jabs.

I believe that Sinthesis asked some good questions,these guys agree because they are very close to being on the same page,nothing over the head here though,I will point out where they are ignoring truth. I have figured the same 7 kings as SC,the problem with that idea is that it is based on the opinion that Rev was written before 70ad and the more accurate evidence is that Rev was written AFTER 90ad,so that position requires that you reject greater evidence for lesser evidence in order to support a position(something I will not do). Also,the 8th(king) that is of the 7 is almost certainly a demonic being that will empower the 7th and will be the coming antichrist because the 8th ascends out of the PRISON FOR SPIRITS(bottomless pit). The abyss is a prison for demon spirits and humans do not ascend from that place,humans are born from human mothers. So no Roman king in the first century ascended from the prison for spirits and then went into destruction. Just a few things out of wack with their ideas.Note, do not be intimidated by people throwing around the names of Roman kings of the past,that does not mean that their conclusions are correct.

 

[warhorse]

When John writes "here is the mind which has wisdom" he's telling you something that he wants you to know, but wants to keep hidden from those not inclined to think much about it. You'll see this same phrase when he talks about the mark of the beast in Revelation 13:What's interesting about this word "wisdom" is that it's used only four times in the book of Revelation, and you've just read two of those uses above.

So what's the point?

John wants his readers to know who these kings are without tipping his hand to the one that was alive during the circulation of this letter to the 7 churches, as he was imprisoned during this persecution.

So who are the kings?

The scarlet beast with 7 mountains and 7 kings is Rome. The 7 kings are the first 7 Caesars ("Caesar" is Latin for "king") of Rome. These Caesars are - in order of appearance:

1. Julius,
2. Augustus,
3. Tiberius,
4. Caligula,
5. Claudius,
6. Nero, and
7. Galba.

At the time of the writing of Revelation, 5 of these kings had died. These were:

1. Julius,
2. Augustus,
3. Tiberius,
4. Caligula,
5. Claudius.

Nero, the letters of whose name adds up to both 666 and 616, was the Caesar alive at the time of the writing of Revelation.

The 7th Caesar - the one whom John wrote "has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while" is Galba, whose reign over the empire lasted only 6 months. He was replaced by Vespasian which brought to an end the "year of the 4 Caesars": the civil war that erupted in the Empire almost tearing it apart. This (the Roman civil war) is the "fatal wound" that the "beast from the sea" in Rev. 13 survives.

The identification of Nero as the king "who is", places the writing of Revelation between the time Nero began persecuting the church after the July 64 fire that destroyed much of Rome and the time of Nero's death on June 11, 68 AD: a period of 42 months:

More later...

Speculation at best.

 

[Stormcrow]

Re - The 7 Kings of Rev - 17:10

Revelation Chapter 17 is concerned with the whore (Apostate Jerusalem) and the beast (Pagan Rome) along with the relationship between them. At the time of John's Revelation, Judea was in revolt against the Roman Empire. The revolt began under Emperor Nero, then Vespasian was Emperor as the revolt was put down and Roman authority re-established over Judea. Therefore Galba, Otho & Vitellius never exercised dominion over Judea, thus they are not considered 'Kings of the Beast' where 'The Whore' is concerned.

Rev 17:10 - And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, [and] the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.​

The Seven Kings who did have authority over Judea:

(five are fallen)

• Julius (of the Roman Republic)
• Augustus
• Tiberius
• Caligula
• Claudius

(one is)

• Nero

(the other is not yet come)

• Vespasian

(when he cometh, he must continue a short space)
After Vespasian was declared Emperor he remained in Judea for only a little while, then left to consolidate his power for Egypt and eventually Rome.

Rev 17:11 - And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.​

The Pagan Roman Empire (beast), which had dominion over Jerusalem (was), but lost it during the Jewish Revolt (is not), (is the eighth) in that 'the eighth' signifies the beginning of a 'new week'. The evidence to the Jews of an ending and therefore new beginning was the destruction of Jerusalem, including the second temple, and the rejection and judgment from God that this seemed to indicate. Rome regained it's dominion through the revival in Judea of the authority once exercised by the seven Caesars (is of the seven) who had reigned while the second temple stood. Thus 'the eighth' signifies the corporate beast of the Roman Empire beginning anew a period of subjugation for Judea and diaspora for God's people. Yet even the victorious Pagan Roman Empire was doomed to fall (goeth into perdition).

Well, at least we agree on the first 6. :yes

And that means the book of Revelation was definitely written during Nero's reign.

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 17:8 "The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 17:11 "And the beast that was, and is not even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition."

All the same person.........satan....Just different roles....

No one except Satan has been judged and sentenced already to perdition, as recorded in Ezekiel 28:18. This beast is the son of perdition, and "perdition" means "to destroy" or destroyer.


Revelation 17:12 "And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power [authority] as kings one hour with the beast."
These "ten horns" are ten kings, and all these kings exists at the same time. They are not like the seven kings of the roles of Satan. They do not rule until a specific time, and then they rule for one hour.

The beast [Antichrist] must appear first, then their power will be given to them by the Antichrist. This is after the deadly wound has been healed, the ending of the one world political system. This is the "hour of temptation" Jesus speaks of and warned us of seven times. The warnings are given so that we will not follow, or be deceived by this beast in that final hour [of this age]. The elect and the sealed of God will not be tempted in that hour, for they know who the tempter is [Satan].

The hour in verse 8,is the hour of temptation.....

Revelation 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [trial], which shall [that hour that is to] come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Many will not understand what I just posted but it's ok,maybe someone will........

 

[Sinthesis]

Well, at least we agree on the first 6. :yes

And that means the book of Revelation was definitely written during Nero's reign.

Well our agreement might not determine when Revelation was written, but we probably agree that one who doesn't accept that Revelation was written during Nero's reign will have a very difficult time correctly interpreting its meaning.

 

[Sam21]

Well our agreement might not determine when Revelation was written, but we probably agree that one who doesn't accept that Revelation was written during Nero's reign will have a very difficult time correctly interpreting its meaning.

So let me get this straight,YOUR definition of correct interpretation takes precedence over known historic evidence? In other words,reality has to yield to your personal desires? The reason that most all bible scholars believe that John wrote Rev after 90ad is BECAUSE OF THE HISTORIC EVIDENCE! If the historic evidence was stronger that John wrote Rev before 70ad then the majority of bible scholars would believe that John wrote Rev before 70ad.

 

[theLords]

Address the issue not the person.