the 70th week is missing????

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

Daniel 9:1 shows us when Daniel says a oprayer to ask forgiveness for Jerusalem. Jerusalem had just been destroyed and Daniel was praying about that.

As near as I can find out the first year of this Darius would be 539BC.

As Daniel finishes this prayer the angel comes to him and well, this is how Daniel tells it.........,

20 While I was speaking and praying, confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel and making my request to the LORD my God for his holy hill- 21 while I was still in prayer, Gabriel, the man I had seen in the earlier vision, came to me in swift flight about the time of the evening sacrifice.

Then Gabriel goes on to say........

22 He instructed me and said to me, "Daniel, I have now come to give you insight and understanding. 23 As soon as you began to pray, an answer was given, which I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed. Therefore, consider the message and understand the vision:

...CONSIDER the message and understand the vision.....

The message is this:
24 "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.

This isn't a vision it is an explanation in answer to the prayer that Daniel has just made concerning Jerusalem and it's people.

Heres the start of the vision.....

25 "Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven 'sevens,' and sixty-two 'sevens.' It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

seven 'sevens' and 62 'sevens' are 69 sevens, where is this 70th week that they talk about?

It isn't from the seventy sevens of verse 24 because that is the message and has nothing to do with the decree being issued to rebuild the temple.

Next we have this .....

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

There Daniel is being told of a ruler who will come and destroy the city and the temple.


27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.'

Here this ruler sets up some kind of a covenant, not Jesus setting it up, but the ruler who will come to destroy the city and the temple.


In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

This isn't Jesus putting an end to the sacrifice, it is the ruler who come to destroy the city and the temple where the sacrifices were given.

Where is the 70th week?

noblej6

 

[preterist]

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

70 comes after 69. It is in the 70th week Messiah is cut off.

 

[noblej6]

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:

70 comes after 69. It is in the 70th week Messiah is cut off.

Tee Hee, good one.

Yes, I'll buy the 70 being after 69 in most cases.

However, what the verse says is .....
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

It doesn't say after the 70 weeks so where is the 70th week.
Did you follow the conversation down from verse 1 which was 539BC..as far as I found out anyway? That seventy sevens is talking about the things Daniel has to do. The prophecy concerning the rebuilding of the temple doesn't start unti the next verse and that has only 69 weeks in it.

As I read thru this I don't see any prediction for any 70th week, where is that taken from?

noblej6

 

[golfjack]

reply

The 70th week has not happened yet. The short answer, it is the seven year tribulation, which will start after we are raptured. The Book of Daniel, especially chapter 9 is very difficult to interpret, but if one uses scripture to interpret scripture, one starts to see the meaning of the 70th week.




May God bless, Golfjack

 

[preterist]

Tee Hee, good one.

Yes, I'll buy the 70 being after 69 in most cases.

However, what the verse says is .....
26 After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing.

It doesn't say after the 70 weeks so where is the 70th week.
Did you follow the conversation down from verse 1 which was 539BC..as far as I found out anyway? That seventy sevens is talking about the things Daniel has to do. The prophecy concerning the rebuilding of the temple doesn't start unti the next verse and that has only 69 weeks in it.

As I read thru this I don't see any prediction for any 70th week, where is that taken from?

noblej6

Perhaps I'm not sure what you are asking but I'll try again.

Here are the 70 weeks:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

All of verse 24 will happen within the 70 weeks.


Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going out of the command to restore and to build Jerusalem, to Messiah the Prince, shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks. When Messiah arrives then 69 weeks are fulfilled.

The street shall be built again, and the wall, even in times of affliction.
Dan 9:26 And after sixty-two weeks( which is the 69th week) Messiah shall be cut off,

Messiah is cut off after the 69th week. That means Messiah is cut off(crucified) during the 70th week.

Here is the 70th week:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease,(sacrifical death of Christ) and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.

There is no reason to put a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week unless you're trying to prop up a dispinsational system.

 

[noblej6]

Hi preterist"

Here are the 70 weeks:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

All of verse 24 will happen within the 70 weeks.

Yes, so 70 heptads from 539 would be 49 BC. What is the significance of that?

Messiah is cut off after the 69th week. That means Messiah is cut off(crucified) during the 70th week.

Okay, I'll go along with that.

Here is the 70th week:

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease,(sacrifical death of Christ) and on a corner of the altar desolating abominations, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator.

Here is from the NASB ..

26"Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing,

No doubt about it, this is Jesus that will be cut off. the crucifixion.

This isn't.
and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary

This is the people(army?) who wil come and destroy Jerusalem and the temple.

And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.

Symbolically describing the destruction I assume?????

27"And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week,

We are still on the people who will come to destroy the city and the temple. It is they who will make a covenant with many in Jerusalem and area for one week/hepad/whatever.

but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate,

Still with the people who will come to destroy the city and the temple and it is that army? that puts an end to sacrifice by destroying the place where they make those sacrifices.

even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate."

Until the army? or leader of he army? is done in himself. Or as the version you quoted says," And that which was decreed shall be poured on the desolator. "

I read somewhere that the rebellion o Judea started somewhere in 66 AD and ended somewhere in 73 AD with a battle at Masada???or something like that.

There is no reason to put a "gap" between the 69th and 70th week unless you're trying to prop up a dispinsational system.

Well, if I have the words figured there would be the 40 years between the crucifixion and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, but no, it wouldn't be as the DP story goes. I wonder if there really is a 70th week or is it just A 'week' that the rebellion occurs which involves all the things of the Olivet Discourse.

Anyway , as crude as that explanation is, what are the pitfalls in there?

Thanks to all who respond,

noblej6

 

[golfjack]

reply

Our Lord acknowledged the gap between His first and second comings, a gap surveyed in several Old Testament prophesiies with comment.

Now there is a similar gap between verses 26 and 27 of Daniel 9. The 69 sevens of years, or 483 years were fulfilled by the crucifixion of Christ. However, the seventieth seven, or the last seven years, are still in the future because there are six prophesies that must be fulfilled during the seventy sevens of years before the 490 years determined for Israel come completely to pass. Gabriel saiid to Daniel ( v. 24), Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for thye holy city

a. to finish the transgression, the end of backsliding for the Hebrew nation, who will never be apostate; this is yet future

b. to make an end to sins, as a nation they will no longer make a practice of sinning; this is yet future;

c. to make reconcilation for iniquity, they will be reconciled to God by faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, their Messiah ( Zech. 12:9-11; Rom. 11:25-27, as a nation they will repent; this is yet future;

d. to bring in everlasting righteousness, this is God's righteous kingdom that Christ will establish on earth when He comes again ( Heb. 1:8; Is. 9:6, 7; Rev. 19:11-16); this is yet future;

e. to seal up thev vision and prophesy, there will be no more ned for visions and prophessies for Israel, for all will have come to pass; this is yet future;

f. to anoint the Most Holy, the most Holy Place, the kingdom temple; this is yet future.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[noblej6]

Re: reply

Hi golfjack

Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for thye holy city

Except that this part is from 539 BC. The 70 sevens , if taken at seven YEARS as the seven it brings us to 49 BC. The 69 weeks start from 445BC but this verse is from when Daniel prayed and that was 539.
What now?

noblej6

 

[golfjack]

reply

The first period of seven sevens of years, or forty-nine years, began in the month of Nisan ( April), in the twentieth year of King Artaxererxes, 445 b. c. ( Neh. 2:1-8). Artaxerxes commissssioned Nehemiah to rebuild Jerusalem and the walls ( v. 25), See Ezra, Nehemiah, and Zechariah.

The second period of sixty-two sevens of years, or 434 years plus forty-nine years, totals 483 years with the Messiah ( Christ) being cut off ( crucified) iin the month of Nisan ( april) in a.d. 32. Allowing for Hebrew prophetic years of 360 days, this comes out to be exactly 483 years from the time of Nehemiah was commissioned by King Artaxerxes to build the wallled city. Actually, that Hebrew calcuation dates back to the flood. According to the book of Genesis, the flood began in the six hundredth year of Noah's life, on the seventeenth day of the second month ( Gen. 7:11); and the flood came to an end on the seventeeenth day of the seventh month ( Gen. 8:4). This was a period of five months of thirty days each, exactly 150 days ( Gen. 7:4). This indicates that as far back as the flood, a year was reckoned to be 360 days, not 365 days as we calculate ( v. 26).

The third period, the seventieth seven of years, or seven years plus 483 years, brings Israel down to the close of 490 years that Jehovah determined for the city and the people Israel. This is the Time of Jacob's trouble ( Jer. 30:7), the seven years of Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21, 22; Rev. 7:13, 14).


May God bless, Golfjack

 

[Vic C.]

Where does this information come from? There is NO mention at all, in the Bible, of a seven year Great Tribulation. There isn't even evidence of any seven year Tribulation period. It's futuristic mumbo-jumbo. 8-) ... and IF there is was, Rev 7:13 is no indication of when the GT would start, for 7:14 indicates the GT is over (... These are they which came out of great tribulation,...)

noblej6, I haven't seen you around here much, but my stance has changed a bit. Though I still believe in a future Wrath and Second Coming, I am reluctant to try and wrap it up into a neat, little, seven year package. I lean towards a historical premillinial interpretation. Basically, this is it:

The 70 weeks are consecutive.

The start of Jesus' ministry marks the start of the 70th. week.

The covenant in Daniel 9:27 is the new covenant first offered to 'Israel".

Halfway through, Messiah was cut off, via His crucifixion.

The end of the week is when the New Covenant was offered up to the Gentiles,
as prophesied in the OT. Some say it was when Stephen was stoned (Acts 7:59),
while many Reformers say it was with Cornelius, the God-fearing Roman gentile of Acts 10:1.
I tend to go with the latter.

Here is a great explanation on Dan. 9 by Isaac Newton. He even explains the Jewish Revolt from 66 A.D. to 70 A.D. (make a note that it equals aprox. 3 1/2 years)

http://www.historicist.com/newton/p1c10.htm

Also, see this http://www.historicist.com/newton/title.htm and whatever else may interest you on that site.

... and for a little extra history, see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... evolt.html

Peace,
Vic

 

[golfjack]

reply

Vic. I don't know about you, but I serve a God of the past, present, and future. I think I have explained my position about the seventieth week pretty well. Yes, I am a dispenstinalist and respect the prophesiies in the Bible, as they are a hundred percent accurate. And the rebirth of Israel is a biggie. Your historical views almost make you a preterist. So, you can wave in the wind if you want, but not me.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[noblej6]

Hi Vic C.

noblej6, I haven't seen you around here much, but my stance has changed a bit. Though I still believe in a future Wrath and Second Coming, I am reluctant to try and wrap it up into a neat, little, seven year package. I lean towards a historical premillinial interpretation. Basically, this is it:

I hope things are working out for you.

I spent time on this many years ago and then just forgot it. I was coming up with so many possibilities they became meaningless to me.

Just lately I started looking at it again and it seemed less cloudy all of a sudden. That doesn't mean I have it figured so I am just trying to pull some thoughts from others around the web.

The start of Jesus' ministry marks the start of the 70th. week.

The 70 weeks are consecutive.

This is where I lose track.

If you calculate from 445 BC using the 483 years you can get to 30-33AD for the crucifixion if you include the 6 day difference in the YEAR from the old calendar to the new. However, the earliest that destruction of the city can be is about 35-40 years after the crucifixion. That isn't really consecutive, maybe it is just a plain old week??

Anyway thanks for he links, I'm going to have a quick look thru them.

noblej6

 

[lecoop]

Where does this information come from? There is NO mention at all, in the Bible, of a seven year Great Tribulation. There isn't even evidence of any seven year Tribulation period. It's futuristic mumbo-jumbo. 8-) ... and IF there is was, Rev 7:13 is no indication of when the GT would start, for 7:14 indicates the GT is over (... These are they which came out of great tribulation,...)

...
The 70 weeks are consecutive.

The start of Jesus' ministry marks the start of the 70th. week.

The covenant in Daniel 9:27 is the new covenant first offered to 'Israel".

Halfway through, Messiah was cut off, via His crucifixion.

The end of the week is when the New Covenant was offered up to the Gentiles,
as prophesied in the OT. Some say it was when Stephen was stoned (Acts 7:59),
while many Reformers say it was with Cornelius, the God-fearing Roman gentile of Acts 10:1.
I tend to go with the latter.

Here is a great explanation on Dan. 9 by Isaac Newton. He even explains the Jewish Revolt from 66 A.D. to 70 A.D. (make a note that it equals aprox. 3 1/2 years)

http://www.historicist.com/newton/p1c10.htm

Also, see this http://www.historicist.com/newton/title.htm and whatever else may interest you on that site.

... and for a little extra history, see http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jso ... evolt.html

Peace,
Vic

Vic, this is where putting a title on part of the week, or the whole week, leaves one open to criticism. You said, "There is NO mention at all, in the Bible, of a seven year Great Tribulation." You are right. There is mention of Daniel's 70th week, as a seven year period of time, proven over and over in many verses.

There isn't even evidence of any seven year Tribulation period.

Again, they use the wrong title: there IS evidence of the 70th week of Daniel, and neither half of that week will be a picnic.

It's futuristic mumbo-jumbo.

It is only a poor use of words. But then, what would you call it, when angels wipe out 2 billion people? It won't be a "picnic." Is it pressure being put on a human, when all the grass is gone, and they have cattle with no pasture, and no water to drink? Could it be "pressure" when humans can't find water to drink? I don't think this blood will be drinkable.

and IF there is was, Rev 7:13 is no indication of when the GT would start, for 7:14 indicates the GT is over

If someone came out of something, that is no indicator that it is over; only that it is over for those that came out. Therefore, this verse is NOT an indicator that the "GT" is over. What it is an indicator for, is that the rapture of the church had just happened, and the conditions of life on earth at the time they were removed was "great tribulation," or great stress. However, this "great tribulation" is not related to that time after the abomination, when the beast will be trying to separte people from their head, if they refuse the mark. Did you read of those Christians just martyred in Turkey? For them, it was "great tribulation, and that was before the rapture. It will only get worse, not better.

I disagree that the 70th week started with Jesus. I believe John disagrees with this also, as he shows the 70th week starting with the 7th seal. We have not yet gotten to the 6th seal.

Coop

 

[Vic C.]

It seems your argument isn't with my findings, but with the Reformers themselves. Sorry. :-? You should read over Newton's explanation of the seven weeks, sixty two weeks, one week and 1/2 week. (yup, that's how he sees them) He read from the Hebrew, not the English translations. Plus his knowledge of history and skills in mathmatics leads me to believe he may have been on to something.

Still learning and studying though

 

[Vic C.]

I ran across this from John Calvin and developed a newfound respect for him and his beliefs (at least his end times beliefs ;-) )

"Inconsequence of the obscurity of this passage it has been twisted in a variety of ways. At the end of the ninth chapter I have shewn the impossibility of its referring to the profanation of the Temple which occurred under the tyranny of Antiochus; on this occasion the angel bears witness to such a complete destruction of the Temple, as to leave no room for the hope of its repair and restoration.

Then the circumstances of the time convinces us of this. For he then said, Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week, and shall cause the sacrifices and oblation to cease. Afterwards, the abomination that stupifieth shall be added, and desolation or stupor, and then death will distill, says he, upon the astonished or stupefied one. The angel, therefore, there treats of the perpetual devastation of the Temple. So in this passage, without doubt;, he treats of the period after the destruction of the Temple; there could be no hope of restoration, as the law with all its ceremonies would then arrive at its termination.

With this view Christ quotes this passage in Matthew 24, while he admonishes his hearers diligently to attend to it. Let him who reads, understand, says he...."

 

[lecoop]

It seems your argument isn't with my findings, but with the Reformers themselves. Sorry. :-? You should read over Newton's explanation of the seven weeks, sixty two weeks, one week and 1/2 week. (yup, that's how he sees them) He read from the Hebrew, not the English translations. Plus his knowledge of history and skills in mathmatics leads me to believe he may have been on to something.

Still learning and studying though

There was very little revelation knowledge of the word of God back then. He could well have been wrong. I believe he was. He lived only a hundred years or so after Martin Luther, who was the one that started the world out of the dark ages. "Dark" for the lack of revelation knowledge of God's word.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

I ran across this from John Calvin and developed a newfound respect for him and his beliefs (at least his end times beliefs ;-) )

It would not take a genius to understand that Daniel's prophecy of the abomination was not completely fulfilled with Antiochus, since Jesus spoke of it many years after the days of Antiochus, and related it to the time of the end.

Christ shall confirm the covenant with many for one week

(emphasis added)

Many people today disagree with this. KJV says "he."

...and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

Who does the "he:" refer back to? In cannot refer back to "the people." It must then, refer back to "the price that shall come." Is this prince Jesus? History proves that it was Titus, the Roman emperor. Titus is not the beast in our future (chapter 13 beast). However, the beast may well be the leader or king (emperor) of the Eastern leg of the Roman Empire - the people now living in the land of the lion, the bear, and the leopard.

Yet there could be another meaning entirely: What does Daniel mean by "a flood?" Perhaps this temple was not referring to Herod's temple at all, but to the temple still in our future! John also speaks of a flood. Notice:

Rev 12
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.

This does not seem to be a flood that would destroy the temple, for it undoubted will be on high ground, but who knows?

Coop