The absurdities of a Pre-Trib Rapture...

[wavy]

Imo, anyway. I haven't studied end-time bible prophecy. End-time bible prophecy is not my thing.

However, I have casually taken a look at the the different positions concerning the Tribulation and the Rapture and have determined that a Pre-Trib Rapture is completely ridiculous. I don't know if my views have been brought up, or if they are common objections that have been dealt with and refuted but I'll post them up here anyway.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 supposedly describes this Pre-Trib Rapture. But I have a few qualms about the time line.

1 Thessalonians says that the Lord (Yeshua/Jesus) will come from heaven with a shout, etc, and then the dead Christians are to be taken up and afterwards the living Christians. Then he spirits them away to heaven to escape the GT, which lasts for 7 years.

Now, he just made all this noise coming back. Quite a scene if you can fathom it. Unless this spectacular event is restricted to the vision of the believers (dead and alive), then I can imagine the whole entire world is seeing this occur, no doubt.

So after it occurs, the GT starts and and everyone in the world has to deal with the beast etc, and make a decision. Follow God and Christ or worship the beast etc. 144,000 saved Jews are alledgedly supposed to be evangelizing the world during this time. However, if the Rapture just occurred, isn't it a bit far-fetched to assume that ANYONE is going to be an unbeliever at this point in time? I mean, afterall, if I was the most hardcore atheist, stubborn skeptic that ever graced the ground, after I saw some one come out of heaven with a big boom of a shout, blaring trumpets, etc, and then witness this character take millions of people, both dead and alive, off of the earth and take them back wherever they heck he came from, I wouldn't be worshipping any beast or rejecting any message about what the bible says...

And so a 7 year GT begins and ends. That same person comes back with a heavenly army of angels and believers and destroys the beast and its world system, and then has the devil locked up for 1,000 years while he reigns the earth as described in the 19th chapter of Revelation on into the beginning of chapter 20.

Then there is another resurrection (the first one occured during the Rapture before the GT -- ya know, the one the whole world just seemed to ignore), described in Revelation 20:4, of martyred GT saints. This GT saint resurrection is called the "first resurrection" (v. 5). So either the resurrection that occured at the Rapture is not a resurrection at all, or is only included as part of the first resurrection here in Revelation 20:4-5.

However, v. 5 affirms that what John saw was the first resurrection, which exludes other resurrections. And then the millenium is finished and satan is let out and then destroyed and then ANOTHER resurrection occurs. This resurrection is for those who will face the second death.

That's THREE resurrections, people, with the second one called the FIRST. It's a tough tooth to pull if the resurrection of believers that occured at the rapture is included in the FIRST RESURRECTION which occurs 7 YEARS later, or that it insignificant as a resurrection at all...

 

[Vic C.]

Hi wavy... welcome to our little part of this site. lol

Imo, anyway. I haven't studied end-time bible prophecy. End-time bible prophecy is not my thing.

However, I have casually taken a look at the the different positions concerning the Tribulation and the Rapture and have determined that a Pre-Trib Rapture is completely ridiculous. I don't know if my views have been brought up, or if they are common objections that have been dealt with and refuted but I'll post them up here anyway.

I will have take a little more time to sort out your post. I'm not sure which part is your and which part isn't.

What I've learned here is it's best to outline your beliefs and support them the best you can, instead of completely dismantling another viewpoint. Putting one view down doesn't automatically make another view correct.

I can go on and on and on about how wrong another position and without fully supporting my position, I may come across as being arrogant. :o

I'd rather not have that attitude in the particular Forum. We are here to learn and share, not beat each other up in disagreement.

There's a lot in this Forum to read. Have fun!

Vic

 

[Quasar]

Subject title

Hi Wavy,

Right now, I'll ask you only two questions, and after your response, go from there.

1. Who are the participants of the first resurrection? [There are only two documented resurrections in the Bible, in Rev.20:4-6].

2. Who do you see coming down out of heaven with Jesus when He makes His Second Advent to the earth? [Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14].

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[wavy]

Hi wavy... welcome to our little part of this site. lol

Imo, anyway. I haven't studied end-time bible prophecy. End-time bible prophecy is not my thing.

However, I have casually taken a look at the the different positions concerning the Tribulation and the Rapture and have determined that a Pre-Trib Rapture is completely ridiculous. I don't know if my views have been brought up, or if they are common objections that have been dealt with and refuted but I'll post them up here anyway.

I will have take a little more time to sort out your post. I'm not sure which part is your and which part isn't.

What I've learned here is it's best to outline your beliefs and support them the best you can, instead of completely dismantling another viewpoint. Putting one view down doesn't automatically make another view correct.

I can go on and on and on about how wrong another position and without fully supporting my position, I may come across as being arrogant. :o

I'd rather not have that attitude in the particular Forum. We are here to learn and share, not beat each other up in disagreement.

There's a lot in this Forum to read. Have fun!

Vic

I believe there is one coming. There is no secret rapture or anything, imo. It would be hard to outline what I believe because I haven't studied everything out fully.

But I have seen inconsistencies in other views I've heard thus far.

 

[wavy]

Re: Subject title

Hi Wavy,

Right now, I'll ask you only two questions, and after your response, go from there.

1. Who are the participants of the first resurrection? [There are only two documented resurrections in the Bible, in Rev.20:4-6].

2. Who do you see coming down out of heaven with Jesus when He makes His Second Advent to the earth? [Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14].

Blessings,

Quasar

1. All believers, including those in the GT (though only the GT saints are specifically mentioned here). Based upon other scriptures like 1 Thessalonians 4, I am therefore persuaded to assume that all believers take part in this resurrection. It's just putting two and two together.

2. I see Yeshua coming with angels.

 

[MrVersatile48]

Hi guys!

In this heat, I have such a headache that I can't recall your names, but as I've always believed in letting the Bible speak for itself as much as possible, I'll come back to print appropriate parts of Matt 24, 1 Cor 15:51-58 & 1 Thess 4:13-5:11

For now, the verse burning in my mind is 'Men's hearts will faint for fear as they see calamities come upon Earth'

The Bible says, 366 times, 'fear not'

1 word can sum up Jesus' reply when His friends asked what signs He would give to show His return to be near: birthpains

The multiplying, accelerating birthpains of all kinds of disasters, that we have seen since Israel's prophesied rebirth - 'the fig tree putting forth her leaves' - began this climax generation that will see Christ's return, serve to bring on the Great Delivery of instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus, before the worst time on Earth comes

That's why He could say, 'Don't be afraid..don't be alarmed..when you see these things begin to happen, look up, for your salvation draws near: it is even at the door..trust in God..trust in Me'

The Rapture will 'cut short' this generation, 'otherwise, no flesh would survive'

Armageddon is in Joel 3, Zechariah 14 & Rev 16-19

You can't rescue AFTER total destruction

He will be in good time

Back later to print..



Ian

 

[MrVersatile48]

Matthew 24
Signs of the End of the Age

1Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2"Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
3As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"

4Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,[a]' and will deceive many. 6You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Danielâ€â€let the reader understand 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. 18Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. 19How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until nowâ€â€and never to be equaled again. 22If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.
23At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the electâ€â€if that were possible. 25See, I have told you ahead of time.

26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'[c]

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father.
37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away.
That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.
42"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

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I won't have time to print the Luke 21 parallel, that speaks @ 'the fig tree & all the trees' - the fig tree is a common Bible picture of Israel - just as the cedars of Lebanon

Many nations have changed their names since 1948 - (the year when EU started as EEC, to fanfare visions of revived Roman Empire, as prophesied in Daniel 7 for this climax generation)


1 Corinthians 15:51-58 (New International Version)


51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."[a]
55"Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?" 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

Footnotes:

1 Corinthians 15:54 Isaiah 25:8
1 Corinthians 15:55 Hosea 13:14

1 Thess 4

The Coming of the Lord

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.

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I just have time to post this timely word from Selwyn Hughes:-



July 21


Prepare!
For reading & meditation - Proverbs 6:1-11
"Go to the ant, you sluggard; consider its ways and be wise!" (v.6)

We continue looking at the vital principle of deferred satisfaction. We see this in the animal kingdom and it is brought out in the text that is before us today. The ant doesn't spend all its time eating. It runs back and forth carrying food into the nest so that it may survive the winter when there will be no food. Keep this picture of the ant continually in your mind. It is one of those images put into the Word of God to bring instruction to the heart. If you are young, prepare for the future in every way you can, not only by denying yourself to the things that God puts out of bounds, but also by giving yourself to the things you need to know about your chosen profession. Whatever you plan to do in life - prepare for it. Prepare by study and also by prayer. Whatever your age, whenever you have to do anything in public, like speaking at a church meeting - prepare. Deny yourself pleasures, like watching television, and give yourself to the task in hand. There are no short cuts to success. I prepared myself for years by filling my heart and mind with the Word of God, and then, when the time came, God called me to launch these Bible notes that you are now perusing. People say to me, "How can you continue to write year after year?" I know I would not be able to do so had I not, many years ago, denied myself many things so that I could prepare. Whatever God asks you to do, don't take His blessings for granted - prepare.
Prayer:

Father, Your knife cuts deep but Your cuts are always redemptive. Forgive me for taking so much for granted and for not giving myself to the task to which You have called me. Help me be a prepared person. In Jesus' Name I ask it. Amen.

 

[Quasar]

Re: Subject title

Hi Wavy,

Right now, I'll ask you only two questions, and after your response, go from there.

1. Who are the participants of the first resurrection? [There are only two documented resurrections in the Bible, in Rev.20:4-6].

2. Who do you see coming down out of heaven with Jesus when He makes His Second Advent to the earth? [Rev.19:14, Zech.14:4-5 and Jude 14].

Blessings,

Quasar

1. All believers, including those in the GT (though only the GT saints are specifically mentioned here). Based upon other scriptures like 1 Thessalonians 4, I am therefore persuaded to assume that all believers take part in this resurrection. It's just putting two and two together.

2. I see Yeshua coming with angels.

Hi Wavy,

1. This is what Jesus dictated to the apostle John about the first resurrection: [Rev.20:4].

"I saw thrones on which were seated those who were given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. THEY HAD NOT WORSHIPPED THE BEAST OR HIS IMAGE AND HAD NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK ON THEIR FOREHEADS OR THEIR HANDS. They came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years."

These are all the great multitude who will be saved during the tribulation. No one from the Body of Christ, His Church participate in the first resurrection. All non-believers at the time the Church was raptured.

2. Because the Church has been in heaven, before the tribulation begins, and are seen returning with Jesus, in His armies from heaven, riding white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean [Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints, Rev.19:8 NIV]. These ARE NOT ANGELS. Nowhere in the Scriptures will you find angels riding horses of any kind, nor is the kind of dress they are wearing described as FINE LINEN [Rev.19:14].


The great multitude of Rev.7:9-17, is a PARENTHETIC view of all those who will participate in the first resurrection, consisting of the tribulation saints. Jesus placed them there for a reason; to reveal the work of the converted 144,000 Israelis evangelists God places on the earth, at the time of the seventh seal, that contains the seven trumpet judgements. The great multitude is from the efforts and the work of the 144,000, that consists of twelve of tribes of Israel. As this is another subject, I do not want to get into it any further on this thread.

Jesus teaches us He is coming back for us to take us with Him, so we can be with Him where He is, in Jn.14:2-3. He confirms His return for us and where He is taking us in vs 28, to heaven with He and our Father in heaven.

The apostle Paul confirms and amplifies Jesus teachings, in 1 Thes.4:14-18, making it clear in vs 15, "ACCORDING TO THE LORD'S OWN WORD..."

"...we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and left WILL BE CAUGHT UP TOGETHER WITH THEM IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR. And so we will be with the Lord forever." [Vss 16-17].

Where you arrived at the so called "secret rapture" is completely non-Scriptural and is only the opinion of those who hold to such an idea. But it is completely false. The rapture is no secret affair, and the Antichrist will deceive people by leading them to believe those who will be raptured are the evil ones while those left on the earth are the good ones.

Now let's ground the Scriptural facts as to when the rapture will take place:

In 2 Thes.2:3, Paul writes the following: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come [The Day of the Lord, the tribulation], until the DEPARTURE [The original translation of the Greek term APOSTASIA - of the Church, to meet Jesus in the clouds of the sky] occurs AND THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction." [Parenthetics mine].

The man of lawlessness is the Antichrist, and the very same person as the "he" in vs 27 of Dan.9, who 'confirms a covenant' with Israel, or better understood, a peace treaty, and is the same person who triggers the tribulation. Which is in complete harmony with 2 Thes.2:4:

"He will oppose and exalt himself over everything that is called God, or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God."

The same scene is repeated in vss 7-8 where the Church is described as the restrainer [Referred to as "he," who stands for the one body of Christ, through the One Spirit, 1 Cor.12:12-13], who will be taken out of the way [Caught up, to be with the Lord in the clouds of the sky], "AND THEN THAT MAN OF LAWLESSNESS WILL BE REVEALED, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and the brilliance of His coming."

Therefore, as the Scriptures reveal, the Church will be Caught Up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the Sky - and then the Antichrist will be revealed and trigger the seven years of tribulation, the 70th and final WEEK [A seven year period], or Jacob's Trouble [Jer.30:7]. At the end of which he and the false prophet will be thrown into the lake of fire, Rev.19:20.


The above is in complete contrast to Jesus ministry to the lost sheep of Israel in Mt.24, Mk.13 and Lk.21, as He clearly revealed in Mt.10:5-6 and again in 15:24. When He refers to gathering His ELECT from the four winds of heaven, it is understood that He has TWO ELECTS, Israel and His Church: For Israel, Isa.45:4, Mt.24:22 and 24:31. For His Church: Rom.8:33, Col.3:12 and 1 Pet.1:2. None of this Scripture has a thing to do with the Church at all, because IT DID NOT EXIST UNTIL TEN DAYS AFTER JESUS ASCENSION [Acts 1:3, 9 and 2:1-3 at Pentecost].

The status of the two ELECTS is as Jesus described it in Jn.10:16, that He has another sheep fold [As He ministers to Israel] He must bring with Him also [His Church]. He goes on to prophecy, they will become one fold with one Shepherd. Which will take place at the end of the tribulation, when Israel finally accepts Jesus as their Messiah [Zech.12:10], and both folds become a single fold/ELECT. with One Shepherd.


Enough for this post.

Blessings,

Quasar