Stormcrow
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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R
Rant
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Rockie>>>>> should I Get Some crayons out >>>>>>>>>I think not! Jesus Bless Israel is Gods Time Line.
Vic C.
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- Mar 16, 2003
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Yup! These four verses are quickly becoming four of my favorite verses.
Rant, please don't get angry. You posted your first post above as a question. John was clear when he gave us these definitions of an antichrist. Verses that don't fit these discriptions should not be shoe-horned into one's End Times position.
Verses like these forced me to change what I believed. :yes
Sure, go ahead. It doesn't change the fact that the anti-christ is spirit, this spirit dwells in the hearts of men and it dwells in organizations. Verses have been given several times for you to read and ponder, if by reading the very written Word of God, you still refuse to see what God is telling you - then it's pointless for anyone else to try and lead you to truth.
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Rant
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Its very simple when the bride is gone the ... 70 week starts for Israel.... Is that so hard to understand ... Thats It!
Some scholars believe that the phrase “with many†in Daniel 9:27 should read “with the manyâ€, a euphemism for Israel, in which case it refers to the anti-Christ confirming a treaty with Israel. In any case the treaty, or covenant, is confirmed by him with many, not by many. For reasons given in Romans 11:25 and Acts 15:13-18 I believe the Church has to disappear before the 70th week can begin, and therefore we won’t see the Anti-Christ in either of his roles.
In 2 Thes. 2 Paul outlined the sequence of end times events for the church. The 2nd Coming cannot happen until there’s a great apostasy, or falling away. (2 Thes. 2:3) and the anti-Christ is revealed (2 Thes. 2:4). I believe the apostasy is beginning now with the advent of the so-called emerging church.
But then Paul tells us that the anti-Christ can’t be revealed until something else also happens. The one who holds back the spirit of lawlessness has to be taken out of the way. (2 Thes. 2:7) Then the anti-Christ will be revealed (2 Thes. 2:8,)
Many scholars believe that the one who holds back the spirit of lawlessness is the Holy Spirit, who is of course sealed within the Church. Therefore the Church has to be taken away before the anti-Christ can be revealed. After the anti-Christ is revealed then the people who’ve rejected the truth will be deceived by false signs and miracles and many will perish. (2 Thes. 2:9-12) This is a reference to the Great Tribulation.
So then, the order is apostasy, rapture, anti-Christ revealed, Great Tribulation, 2nd Coming
Some scholars believe that the phrase “with many†in Daniel 9:27 should read “with the manyâ€, a euphemism for Israel, in which case it refers to the anti-Christ confirming a treaty with Israel. In any case the treaty, or covenant, is confirmed by him with many, not by many. For reasons given in Romans 11:25 and Acts 15:13-18 I believe the Church has to disappear before the 70th week can begin, and therefore we won’t see the Anti-Christ in either of his roles.
In 2 Thes. 2 Paul outlined the sequence of end times events for the church. The 2nd Coming cannot happen until there’s a great apostasy, or falling away. (2 Thes. 2:3) and the anti-Christ is revealed (2 Thes. 2:4). I believe the apostasy is beginning now with the advent of the so-called emerging church.
But then Paul tells us that the anti-Christ can’t be revealed until something else also happens. The one who holds back the spirit of lawlessness has to be taken out of the way. (2 Thes. 2:7) Then the anti-Christ will be revealed (2 Thes. 2:8,)
Many scholars believe that the one who holds back the spirit of lawlessness is the Holy Spirit, who is of course sealed within the Church. Therefore the Church has to be taken away before the anti-Christ can be revealed. After the anti-Christ is revealed then the people who’ve rejected the truth will be deceived by false signs and miracles and many will perish. (2 Thes. 2:9-12) This is a reference to the Great Tribulation.
So then, the order is apostasy, rapture, anti-Christ revealed, Great Tribulation, 2nd Coming
Rant your second post here said this....
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
You have added your own thoughts to the verse and yet you claim a literal interpretation. Why?
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
You have added your own thoughts to the verse and yet you claim a literal interpretation. Why?
smaller
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Factual observation!
Nice to see once in awhile
The fact that 'all' sin and sin is of the devil places that 'spirit' where?
Why in 'all' mankind, of course, and inclusive of sinning believers who do in fact 'all' sin.
The frailty of observations from within Christiandom in general is that many believe that spirit discontinues operations 'within them' once they are 'born again,' which is the furthest line from the battle/wrestling match one can be placed.
The 'enemy' is not the other people, the .gov, the .mil, the dot whatever....
We 'all' do carry our own enemies within our hearts...as that is where 'evil' comes from. From 'within.' And it is there where we find the enemy who is 'not us' as Gods children.
Looking on the outside of the cup was futile for the Pharisees, as Jesus advised them, and it remains futile today.
The anti-Christ spirit works 'within' and 'unseen.' A distinct operational (set of) entities that exist simultaneously with mankind. This is a fact of scripture, beyond dispute or spin.
To those who have not perceived this fact for yourself, God Help you!
Scriptures speak of a time when that 'man of sin,' that would be Satan, would be revealed. Few have suspected themselves as the location of that revealing.
Luke 12:51
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division
The promise of division, mankind from devils, was shown by Jesus in a fleshly manner, removing 'some' from the flesh of mankind during His earthly ministry.
In the Final Act of these matters, the entire entity class spoken of here will be ripped apart 'from' within mankind and sent to the flames of HELL.
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
These 'matters' are not in the 'other people' nor will these entities be 'personified' in a sole individual anti-Christ of the human variety.
The wrestling match is within each of us, as Jesus taught us here:
Mark 7:21
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
Mark 7:23
All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Those who are looking on the outside ARE going to be blindsided.
In the message of Jesus to the 7 churches of Revelation, Satan (or his associates) was observed to be working within them 'all.'
If you want to locate the anti-Christ spirit, you need look no closer than to your own heart.
Once you locate that BEAM in your eye, the miniscule spec in the eye of any other person will come into proportion and focus very quickly.
enjoy!
s
Stormcrow
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"Literalness" in some Christian circles is like fast-food burgers claiming to be "100% pure beef", which is true: the 5% of the burger that is meat really is 100% pure beef! The rest? You're not supposed to question that part.
I'm sure the 1% of the Bible some take literally they are taking 100% literally! The rest? See above.
2hisvessel1
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- Apr 30, 2005
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Are you referring to Rev.13:1-2?
R
Rant
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Reba >>>>>> I feel you have no love for me >>>>>>>> My Theology and the understanding of Prophecy is DIFF then yours.... Can you lay down a thread for Me on Prophecy so I can pick it apart... Hope to see it soon Jesus Bless Israel is Gods Time Line!
Vic C.
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- Mar 16, 2003
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Rant, I have full knowledge of all the future pre-millennial beliefs. I used to believe pre-trib, then pre-wrath. But when I found out that Daniel 9:24-27 was meant to be Messianic, and not about some future 70th. week and the emergence of an anti chirist, I did what any honest student of the Bible would do; I reevaluated my beliefs and sought out to adjust many of them.
The covenant spoken of in Daniel is the New Covenant, originally given to the Jews by Jesus Himself.
Here is what Issac Newton wrote about:
I no longer believe in a future 70th. week and I do not believe God's ekklesia is going anywhere until the Lord unleashes His final wrath on this unbelieving world. No offense, but most of us who don't believe in a pre trib rapture did at one time, but abandoned it for a more biblically true position.
The covenant spoken of in Daniel is the New Covenant, originally given to the Jews by Jesus Himself.
Here is what Issac Newton wrote about:
Blue Letter Bible - Commentaries - Isaac Newton - Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John
I no longer believe in a future 70th. week and I do not believe God's ekklesia is going anywhere until the Lord unleashes His final wrath on this unbelieving world. No offense, but most of us who don't believe in a pre trib rapture did at one time, but abandoned it for a more biblically true position.
Vic C.
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I feel she IS correcting you in love. We are all here to learn. What good is it to anyone if we sit silently and do nothing to point out what we believe to be errors in one's beliefs? Now I know they aren't your beliefs because you weren't the one to come up with the pre tribulation position, so we do not hold you accountable. But the fact is, many believers latch on to a specific belief concerning End Times and their quest for additional knowledge stops right there.
We should all question what we believe, even if hurts to find out we may be wrong. A wise man once said to me, "You're never too old to learn something new." :yes
There is no typical one anti-Christ, their are all anti-Christ's, however I do also agree that there is one particular individual who is referred as the singular anti-Christ within anti-Christ's.
I for one see a singular anti-christ and the mention of anti-Christs in John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
Seems to me John is saying an antiChrist is coming and even so currently their are many antiChrist's.
In other words one particular one is coming and even at Johns current writing he is stating that many have come.
Which he even then goes into writing about those who were with them but have walked away and he states if they were really with us, te saints, the body, then they would have stayed. Which would be those who are the anti-Christs.
Now I'm not diagreeing that there are many anti-Christ's i disagree that John wasnt speaking of first a particular anti-Christ's that was to come and also of anti-Christs that were at his present time.
Why do I say this, well because scripture does mention a singular anti-Christ, also called specifically the man of lawlessness and the beast.
Which if you want to cross reference both the man of lawlessness as mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12 and the beast of the sea in Revelation 13:1-9 and the mentions of that beast also in verses 11-18 and 19:20 (beast's defeat at the Lords coming) we see a very comparable and identical description.
Lets post thos scriptures:
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear."
Bolding is for the exact comparisons. The bolding italic is to show yet again the Spirit confirming that while directly speaking of a singular it also adresses an already observant presence of lawlessness, just as John did when speaking of anti-christs.
-Both are destroyed at Christs return
-The man of lawlessness recieves from Satan.
The beast recieves from Satan.
-They both speak out againts God and both are worshipped by the unrighteous
Now for a mystery to be shown, you speak as though the antichrist came because John said many anti-christs have come, well Paul recites the exact same thing in 2 Thessalonians telling the brethren "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work" yet Paul states this just prior to that "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time"
So if the work of lawlessness is to be viewed just as anti-Christs is, why does Paul contradict himself saying its present and working yet the "man of lawlessness" himself is currently restrained?
Thats what John also said when he spoke this ""Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
Indeed the anti-christ is coming and indeed many anti-christs have come just as the mystery of lawlessness was at work and yet the man of lawlessness was being restrained from coming.
anti-Christ's: present in Johns writing.
work of lawlessness: already working in Pauls letter.
anti-Christ: referred as "coming".
man of lawlessness: not revealed yet due to being restrained.
I for one see a singular anti-christ and the mention of anti-Christs in John 2:18
"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
Seems to me John is saying an antiChrist is coming and even so currently their are many antiChrist's.
In other words one particular one is coming and even at Johns current writing he is stating that many have come.
Which he even then goes into writing about those who were with them but have walked away and he states if they were really with us, te saints, the body, then they would have stayed. Which would be those who are the anti-Christs.
Now I'm not diagreeing that there are many anti-Christ's i disagree that John wasnt speaking of first a particular anti-Christ's that was to come and also of anti-Christs that were at his present time.
Why do I say this, well because scripture does mention a singular anti-Christ, also called specifically the man of lawlessness and the beast.
Which if you want to cross reference both the man of lawlessness as mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians 2:1-12 and the beast of the sea in Revelation 13:1-9 and the mentions of that beast also in verses 11-18 and 19:20 (beast's defeat at the Lords coming) we see a very comparable and identical description.
Lets post thos scriptures:
"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear."
Bolding is for the exact comparisons. The bolding italic is to show yet again the Spirit confirming that while directly speaking of a singular it also adresses an already observant presence of lawlessness, just as John did when speaking of anti-christs.
-Both are destroyed at Christs return
-The man of lawlessness recieves from Satan.
The beast recieves from Satan.
-They both speak out againts God and both are worshipped by the unrighteous
Now for a mystery to be shown, you speak as though the antichrist came because John said many anti-christs have come, well Paul recites the exact same thing in 2 Thessalonians telling the brethren "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work" yet Paul states this just prior to that "And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time"
So if the work of lawlessness is to be viewed just as anti-Christs is, why does Paul contradict himself saying its present and working yet the "man of lawlessness" himself is currently restrained?
Thats what John also said when he spoke this ""Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
Indeed the anti-christ is coming and indeed many anti-christs have come just as the mystery of lawlessness was at work and yet the man of lawlessness was being restrained from coming.
anti-Christ's: present in Johns writing.
work of lawlessness: already working in Pauls letter.
anti-Christ: referred as "coming".
man of lawlessness: not revealed yet due to being restrained.
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KJ
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
Which translation are you using Warfrog?
1Jn 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
"Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour."
Which translation are you using Warfrog?
nkjv
Stormcrow
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NASB translation - which is truest to the original Greek - also omits the definite article before the word "antichrist":
{18} Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour. 1 John 2:18 (NASB)
Antichrist is a spirit, not a man:
{2} By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; {3} and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 1 John 4:2-3 (NASB)
{7} For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 1:7 (NASB)
Later.
