Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need

    https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/

  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

  • Looking to grow in the word of God more?

    See our Bible Studies and Devotionals sections in Christian Growth

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Have questions about the Christian faith?

    Come ask us what's on your mind in Questions and Answers

  • How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?

    Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject

    https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042

Bible Study The Attributes of God

There are many threads in the forum that are discussing what God should or should not do. I thought it was time to cut to the chase.

When all is said and done do you believe that God is just and that His judgments are righteous?
Do you believe that He is omnipotent?
Do you believe that God is omniscient?
 
Good discussion. May I add a couple more to your list?

God's will...

Is it sovereign?
Is it permissive?
Is it perceptive ?

Yes, God is just... is He also (agape) love?
If so, how do these two attibutes co-exist?


Peace
 
Gabby - may I clarify something. Many people believe that Jesus is God and also that the holy spirit is God, so are you referring to all of these entities or perhaps only the Father?

You see scripture tells us that Jesus does not know when he will return - but the Father does. Now if we say that Jesus is God, we must also accept that God is not 'all knowing' on this basis.

Also when Jesus returned to the Father he said that he would ask the father to send the Holy Spirit. On this basis if we accept that the holy spirit is God then we must also accept that God is not 'all present'.

The Lord bless you
 
mutzrein said:
What has this got to do the attributes of God?

It was a response to what you wrote, "You see scripture tells us that Jesus does not know when he will return - but the Father does. Now if we say that Jesus is God, we must also accept that God is not 'all knowing' on this basis."

Christ was speaking out of His humanity.
 
JM said:
It was a response to what you wrote, "You see scripture tells us that Jesus does not know when he will return - but the Father does. Now if we say that Jesus is God, we must also accept that God is not 'all knowing' on this basis."

Christ was speaking out of His humanity.

By my reckoning, this relates to Jesus as he is now - seated at the right hand of the Father.
 
mutzrein said:
Gabby - may I clarify something. Many people believe that Jesus is God and also that the holy spirit is God, so are you referring to all of these entities or perhaps only the Father?

You see scripture tells us that Jesus does not know when he will return - but the Father does. Now if we say that Jesus is God, we must also accept that God is not 'all knowing' on this basis.

Also when Jesus returned to the Father he said that he would ask the father to send the Holy Spirit. On this basis if we accept that the holy spirit is God then we must also accept that God is not 'all present'.

Gabbylittleangel said:
...When all is said and done do you believe that God is just and that His judgments are righteous?
Do you believe that He is omnipotent?
Do you believe that God is omniscient?

All present - om·ni·pres·ent
ADJECTIVE: Present everywhere simultaneously.

Mutz,
Your post is a bit confusing, rather than clarifying. You stated what "many people believe."
Are you stating what you think that people who believe in the trinity should believe? Or are you stating what you believe?
 
Gabbylittleangel said:
All present - om·ni·pres·ent
ADJECTIVE: Present everywhere simultaneously.

Mutz,
Your post is a bit confusing, rather than clarifying. You stated what "many people believe."
Are you stating what you think that people who believe in the trinity should believe? Or are you stating what you believe?

Sorry about creating confusion Gabby.

Trinitarians believe Jesus is God and the Holy Spirit is God, do they not? So my question is, when you ask about the omnipotence and omnipresence of God, which entity are you talking about? By my reckoning scripture indicates the father, the holy spirit & Jesus each have different functions and positions of authority. If this is so, do they each have the same characteristics of omnipresence and omnipotence?

Has that helped clarify what I meant?
 
mutzrein said:
By my reckoning, this relates to Jesus as he is now - seated at the right hand of the Father.

Fair enough, we both know where each other is coming from.
 
Little Angel
An excellent topic.....

I will be back later to post some comments....

Mutz, you really need to study the entire bile....
 
Any or all of those attributes to any or all of the Holy Trinity.

Mutz,

You appear to be playing with me rather than answering the question. This is not a Trinity thread. If you want to discuss your beliefs on the Trinity, you should have no problem finding a dozen or so threads on the subject.

If you were to believe that any one of those characteristics applied to the God you believe in, then your answer should be yes.

If you do not believe that the God that you believe in is sovereign, then your answer should be no.

If we could stand yet one more Trinity thread, I suppose it should be on the characteristics of the aspects and facets of the Trinity. The attempts that I have made to discuss God - the Holy Spirit, kept getting hi-jacked by folks that don't want us to discuss the Holy Spirit and wanted to distract us from such.

I noticed that you only posted here once.

http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... sc&start=0
 
Gabby

I have no desire to hijack this - or any other thread. I'm just trying to establish the terms of reference. Do you not see what I am saying?

Scripture differentiates between the position and authority of each member of the 'trinity'. For example, it tells us that Jesus does not know something that his father does know. Now if this thread is to discuss the 'all knowing' nature of God, (and to me this IS TRUE of the Father), do we just speak of the Father (who to me is God) or the entire 'Trinity' which you accept as God.

In any case, I'm happy to bow out of this thread now if you would rather I not participate. It's no skin off my nose and am more than happy to say, 'the Lord bless you' and see you in another thread. :)

BTW - with regard to that other thread you refer to, I think that was hijacked by issues pertaining to catholicism and the law - and probably some other stuff I missed. I had no wish delve into that. But didn't I make a post to you? If you responded to me then I'm sorry I missed it. I'm more than happy to revisit. Let me know though coz there's probably much that goes on that I miss :-?
 
jgredline said:
Little Angel
An excellent topic.....

I will be back later to post some comments....

Mutz, you really need to study the entire bile....

Off Topic

JG I have no desire to study bile. :-? :-D :-D Personally I haven't got the guts for it but you go right ahead.

Sorry Gabby - this appealed to me and couldn't resist a quick quip.

Back on topic :)
 
Hi Little Angel

Here is a small part of a book I have been reading by John Piper...The pleasures of God

I scanned a little bit of it and as I get time I will scan more...
Blessings,

Begotten Not Made

Now again we should press on a step farther to guard against misunderstanding and to enlarge the vista of the glory of God’s gladness in the Son. The fullness of deity, which now dwells bodily in Jesus (Colossians 2:9), already existed in personal form before the God-Man, Jesus Christ, existed as a Jewish teacher on the earth. This pushes us back further into the happiness of the triune God. The Son, in whom God delights, is the eternal image and radiance of God and is thus himself God.
In Colossians 1:15–16 Paul says, “[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; for in him all things were created in heaven and on earth.â€Â

Historically this has been a very controversial text. And still today there are sects like the Jehovah’s Witnesses that give it a meaning contrary to the meaning understood by historic Christian orthodoxy. About a.d. 256 a man named Arius was born in Libya who became one of the most famous heretics of the Christian church. He put this text to use for his doctrine. He was educated by a teacher named Lucian in Antioch and became a prominent elder in the church of Alexandria in Egypt. He was described as “a tall, lean man, with a downcast brow, very austere habits, considerable learning, and a smooth, winning address, but quarrelsome disposition.â€Â
The so-called Arian controversy began about a.d. 318 in Alexandria when Arius disputed with Bishop Alexander concerning the eternal deity of Christ. Arius began to teach that the Son of God was different in essence from the Father and that he was created by the Father rather than coeternal with the Father. Socrates, a church historian who lived in Constantinople between a.d. 380 and 439, tells the story of how this controversy began:
Alexander [Bishop of Alexandria] attempted one day, in the presence of the presbyters and the rest of his clergy, too ambitious a discourse about the Holy Trinity, the subject being “Unity in Trinity.â€Â
Arius, one of the presbyters under his jurisdiction, a man possessed of no inconsiderable logical acumen, thinking that the bishop was introducing the doctrine of Sabellius the Libyan [who stressed Jewish monotheism to the extent of denying a true Trinity], from love of controversy, advanced another view diametrically opposed to the opinion of the Libyan, and, as it seemed, vehemently controverted the statements of the bishop. “If,†said he, “the Father begat the Son, He that was begotten has a beginning of existence; and from this it is evident, that there was when the Son was not. It therefore necessarily follows that He had His essence from the non-existent.â€Â

It is easy to see how Colossians 1:15 could be made to support Arius’s position. Paul said that Christ is “the firstborn of all creation.†One could easily take this to mean that Christ was himself part of creation and was the first and highest creature. Thus he would have a beginning; there would be a time when he had no existence at all. And thus his essence would not be the essence of God but would be created out of nothing like the rest of creation. This is in fact what Arius taught.

The next seven years after this first dispute in a.d. 318 saw the controversy spread across the entire empire. Constantine, the emperor, was forced to become involved for the sake of the unity of the church. He called a great Council in a.d. 325 to deal with these weighty matters, and designated the city to be Nicea “because of the excellent temperature of the air, and in order that I may be present as a spectator and participator in those things which will be done.†The Council produced a creed that left no doubt that it considered Arius’s ideas heretical.

The Nicene Creed that we know and recite today is based on the one I will quote which is technically called “The Creed of Nicea.†It will be plain to every reader which parts of the creed are intended to distinguish orthodoxy from Arianism.

We believe in one God the Father All-sovereign, maker of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, only-begotten, that is, of the substance of the Father, God of God, Light of Light, true God of true God, begotten not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made, things in heaven and things on the earth; who for us men and for our salvation came down and was made flesh, and became man, suffered, and rose on the third day, ascended into the heavens, is coming to judge living and dead; And in the Holy Spirit.
And those that say “There was when he was not,†and, “Before he was begotten he was not,†and that, “He came into being from what-is-not,†or those that allege, that the Son of God is “Of another substance or essence†or “created,†or “changeable,†or “alterable,†these the Catholic and

Apostolic Church anathematizes.

This has remained the orthodox understanding of Scripture throughout all church history to our own day. I feel compelled to defend this understanding here because if Arianism (or the Jehovah’s Witnesses) proved right, then the pleasure of God in his Son would be a radically different thing than I take it to be. And the foundation of everything else in this book would be shaken. Everything hangs on the unbounded joy in the triune God from all eternity. This is the source of God’s absolute self-sufficiency as a happy Sovereign. And every true act of free grace in redemptive history depends on it.
How then are we to understand Paul when he says in Colossians 1:15, “He [Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation� What does firstborn mean? And does not “of all creation†mean that he is part of creation?

First, we should realize that “of all creation†does not have to mean that Christ was part of creation. If I said, “God is ruler of all creation,†no one would think I meant God is part of creation. I mean that he is ruler “over all creation.†There is a good clue in the next verse (Colossians 1:16) which helps us understand whether Paul means something like this. He says, “[Christ] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because in him all things were created.†In other words, the reason Paul calls Christ the firstborn “of all creation†is “because in him all things were created.†The reason is not that he was the first and greatest created thing. The reason is that every created thing was created by him. This does not incline us to think then that “firstborn of all creation†means “firstborn among all created things,†but rather “firstborn over all created things.â€Â

The second thing to realize is that the term “firstborn†(prōtotokos) can have a strictly biological meaning: “And she gave birth to her firstborn son and wrapped him in swaddling cloths†(Luke 2:7). But it can also have a nonbiological meaning of dignity and precedence. For example, in Psalm 89:27 God says of the one who will sit on David’s throne, “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth.†The meaning here is that this king will have preeminence and honor and dignity over all the kings of the earth. Other nonbiological uses are found in Exodus 4:22 where Israel is called God’s “firstborn sonâ€Â; and Hebrews 12:23 where all believers are called the “firstborn who are written in heaven.â€Â

So there are four reasons we can give now why Arius and the Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong to say that Colossians 1:15 means that Christ was part of God’s creation. First, the word “firstborn†can very naturally mean “preeminent one†or “one with superior dignity†or “one who is first in time and rank.†It does not have to imply that Christ was brought forth as part of the creation. Second, verse 16 (as we have seen) implies clearly that Christ was the Creator of all things and not part of the creation (“because in him all things were createdâ€Â). Third, Chrysostom (a.d. 347–407) pointed out that Paul avoided the word that would have clearly implied that Christ was the first creation (prōtoktistos) and chose to use instead a word with connotations of parent-child, not Creator-creation (firstborn, prōtotokos).
This leads to the fourth reason for rejecting the Arian interpretation of Colossians 1:15. In using the term “firstborn,†Paul speaks in remarkable harmony with the apostle John who calls Christ God’s “only begotten Son†(John 1:14, 18; 3:16, 18; 1 John 4:9) and teaches clearly that this does not make him a creature but rather makes him God: “In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God†(John 1:1). C. S. Lewis shows why the use of the term “begotten†(and we could add Paul’s term, “firstbornâ€Â) implies the deity of Christ and not his being a creature.
When you beget, you beget something of the same kind as yourself. A man begets human babies, a beaver begets little beavers, and a bird begets eggs which turn into little birds. But when you make, you make something of a different kind from yourself. A bird makes a nest, a beaver builds a dam, and man makes a wireless setâ€â€or he may make something more like himself than a wireless set, say, a statue. If he’s clever enough a carver he makes a statue which is very much like a man indeed. But, of course, it’s not a real man; it only looks like one. It can’t breathe or think. It’s not alive.

For these reasons, then, I take my stand gladly with the great tradition of Christian orthodoxy and not with ancient or modern Arianism. Christ is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature†(Hebrews 1:3). “Though he was in the form of God, [he] did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped†(Philippians 2:6). “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God†(John 1:1).
So the Son in whom the Father delights is the image of God and the radiance of the glory of God. He bears the very stamp of God’s nature and is the very form of God. He is equal with God and, as John says, is God.
From all eternity, before creation, the one reality that has always existed is God. This is a great mystery, because it is so hard for us to think of God having absolutely no beginning, and just being there forever and ever and ever, without anything or anyone making him be thereâ€â€just absolute reality that everyone of us has to reckon with whether we like it or not. But this ever-living God has not been “alone.†He has not been a solitary center of consciousness. There has always been another, who has been one with God in essence and glory, and yet distinct in personhood so that they have had a personal relationship for all eternity.

The Bible teaches that this eternal God has always had a perfect image of himself (Colossians 1:15), a perfect radiance of his essence (Hebrews 1:3), a perfect stamp or imprint of his nature (Hebrews 1:3), a perfect form or expression of his glory (Philippians 2:6).

We are on the brink of the ineffable here, but perhaps we may dare to say this much: as long as God has been God (eternally) he has been conscious of himself; and the image that he has of himself is so perfect and so complete and so full as to be the living, personal reproduction (or begetting) of himself. And this living, personal image or radiance or form of God is God, namely God the Son. And therefore God the Son is coeternal with God the Father and equal in essence and glory.
 
Here is the next section from John Pipers book...

God’s Delight in Being God

We may conclude that the pleasure of God in his Son is pleasure in himself. Since the Son is the image of God and the radiance of God and the form of God, equal with God, and indeed is God, therefore God’s delight in the Son is delight in himself. The original, the primal, the deepest, the foundational joy of God is the joy he has in his own perfections as he sees them reflected in the glory of his Son. Paul speaks of “the glory of God in the face of Christ†(2 Corinthians 4:6). From all eternity God had beheld the panorama of his own perfections in the face of his Son. All that he is he sees reflected fully and perfectly in the countenance of his Son. And in this he rejoices with infinite joy.

At first this sounds like vanity. It would be vanity if we humans found our deepest joy by looking in the mirror. We would be vain and conceited and smug and selfish if we were like God in this regard. But why? Aren’t we supposed to imitate God (Matthew 5:48; Ephesians 5:1)? Yes, in some ways. But not in every way. This was the first deceit of Satan in the Garden of Eden: He tempted Adam and Eve to try to be like God in a way that God never intended them to be like himâ€â€namely, in self-reliance. Only God should be self-reliant. All the rest of us should be God-reliant. In the same way, we were created for something infinitely better and nobler and greater and deeper than self-contemplation. We were created for the contemplation and enjoyment of God! Anything less than this would be idolatry toward him and disappointment for us. God is the most glorious of all beings. Not to love him and delight in him is a great loss to us and insults him.
But the same is true for God. How shall God not insult what is infinitely beautiful and glorious? How shall God not commit idolatry? There is only one possible answer: God must love and delight in his own beauty and perfection above all things. For us to do this in front of the mirror is the essence of vanity; for God to do it in front of his Son is the essence of righteousness.

Is not the essence of righteousness to place supreme value on what is supremely valuable, with all the just actions that follow? And isn’t the opposite of righteousness to set our highest affections on things of little or no worth, with all the unjust actions that follow? Thus the righteousness of God is the infinite zeal and joy and pleasure that he has in what is supremely valuable, namely, his own perfection and worth. And if he were ever to act contrary to this eternal passion for his own perfections he would be unrighteous, he would be an idolater.

This is not irrelevant speculation. It is the foundation of all Christian hope. This will become increasingly obvious especially in chapter 6, but let me point the way here. In this God-centered, divine righteousness lies the greatest obstacle to our salvation. For how shall such a righteous God ever set his affection on sinners like us who have scorned his perfections? But the wonder of the gospel is that in this divine righteousness lies also the very foundation of our salvation. The infinite regard that the Father has for the Son makes it possible for me, a wicked sinner, to be loved and accepted in the Son, because in his death he vindicated the worth and glory of his Father. Now I may pray with new understanding the prayer of the psalmist, “For your name’s sake, O Lord, pardon my guilt, for it is great†(Psalm 25:11). The new understanding is that Jesus has now atoned for sin and vindicated the Father’s honor so that our sins are forgiven “on account of his name†(1 John 2:12). We will see this again and again in the chapters to comeâ€â€how the Father’s infinite pleasure in his own perfections is the fountain of our everlasting joy. The fact that the pleasure of God in his Son is pleasure in himself is not vanity. It is the gospel.
 
mutzrein said:
...Many people believe...
... Trinitarians believe ...

...Has that helped clarify what I meant?

Nope

mutzrein said:
I'm just trying to establish the terms of reference. Do you not see what I am saying?

Yep. I am thinking that you are either having difficulty defining the meaning of the word "God", ~or~ the context of "what you believe" is giving you problems.

mutzrein said:
Now if this thread is to discuss the 'all knowing' nature of God, (and to me this IS TRUE of the Father)....

I believe you got it.

mutzrein said:
In any case, I'm happy to bow out of this thread now if you would rather I not participate.

Participate in a discussion of "Attributes of God"? Sure, Hang around. Contribute. Learn. Enjoy.

Argue Trinity? It would seem redundant, and might be better voiced in a Trinity thread.

mutzrein said:
BTW - with regard to that other thread you refer to, I think that was hijacked by issues pertaining to catholicism and the law - and probably some other stuff I missed. I had no wish delve into that. But didn't I make a post to you? If you responded to me then I'm sorry I missed it. I'm more than happy to revisit. Let me know though coz there's probably much that goes on that I miss :-?

In regards to the other thread, I would love to discuss the Holy Spirit. It needs to be done with folks that believe in the Holy Spirit. As long as there are folks that want to disrupt and monopolize such discussions with their doubt, unbelief; it probably won't happen in forum.
 
Here are just some of the attributes of God

God is Holy
God is Merciful
God is Longsuffering
God is Jealous
He is a God of Justice
He is eternal
He is faithful
God is Good, all the time
God is righteous
He is loving
God is omnipotent
God is omnipresent
God is omniscient
God is Sovereign
God is wise
God is a God of wrath
He is a God of vengeance
God is gracious
God is infinite
God is truthful
God is transcendent
God is incomprehensible
God is perfect

Some of these attributes are conditional and seem to contradict. He is both merciful and vengeful. Do you believe that these attributes describe God? Are there any of these attributes that you believe do not describe God?
 
Back
Top