The beginning of the new testament.

[Hopeful 2]

When did the old testament end, before Jesus shed the blood of the new testament ?
On the same day ?
It is written..."And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." (Mark 14:24)

The collators of bible scriptures call them the new testament, even though lots of its events happened years before Jesus shed His blood.
It is written..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16)

Isn't there a sort of donut hole between John and Jesus' shed blood ?

 

[LeviR]

When did the old testament end, before Jesus shed the blood of the new testament ?
On the same day ?
It is written..."And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." (Mark 14:24)

The collators of bible scriptures call them the new testament, even though lots of its events happened years before Jesus shed His blood.
It is written..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16)

Isn't there a sort of donut hole between John and Jesus' shed blood ?

The Law was a schoolmaster to bring to faith. The faith of Abraham, before the Law was given.
The Law was meant to show the Jews their own inability to adhere fully to its demands and therefore seek mercy.
It was a shadow which pointed forward.
It’s called “New” in the sense of being newly brought into force by the death of the testator, who is Christ.

 

[WIP]

Reminder, this is not a debate forum. If the intention of the OP is to defend his position against the answers given, then I suggest we move this discussion.

 

[Vinny37]

When did the old testament end, before Jesus shed the blood of the new testament ?
On the same day ?
It is written..."And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." (Mark 14:24)

The collators of bible scriptures call them the new testament, even though lots of its events happened years before Jesus shed His blood.
It is written..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16)

Isn't there a sort of donut hole between John and Jesus' shed blood ?

IMO the data fits nicely into the NT schema.

The old covenant (testament is traditional but a little weak) ended at the point of Jesus’ death—“Job done” (Jhn.19:30’s τετελεσται). The earlier talk that day (days began about 6pm, and he died about 9 hours later, at about 3pm Nisan 15). That talk was proleptic, a manner of speech when one speaks as if something is done which will soon be done.

Lk.16:16//Mt.11:12 speak of the inbreaking level of God’s kingdom, the messianic to replace the Sinaitic. The Sinai people were in God’s kingdom from the exodus, but awaited its messianic phase, which Nicodemus was told he could not enter as a child of Sinai, unless he were born anew/spiritually (Jhn.3:3).

Matthew focused here on the fact that forceful people had been trying to stop its progress (eg John being imprisoned; Yeshua being opposed). They failed, and it became active by the cross. “From the days of John the Baptist until the present, the kingdom from heaven has been forcefully advancing, and violent people have been attacking” (ISV: Mt.11:12). The more paraphrastic TVB is helpful: “All of the prophets of old, all of the law—that was all prophecy leading up to the coming of John. Now, that sort of prepares us for this very point, right here and now. When John the Baptist came, the kingdom of heaven began to break in upon us, and those in power are trying to clamp down on it—why do you think John is in jail?”

Luke focused here on the fact that even from the preaching of John, people were being urged to forcefully enter the inbreaking kingdom, the procession to the throne, or put another way, to get in the queue ready for the door to open. Many indeed were already in that procession, lined up at the door, but although being disciples of messiah, were still under Sinai until messiah took the reins at his death, annulling Sinai like a deceased husband (Rm.7:1-4). Jesus’ death was the death of Sinai.

“The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it” (NET: Lk.16:16): likewise Darrell Bock. Clearly the pharisees weren’t trying to get in, so it wasn’t everyone! The ‘until’ was the Sinai phase up to and including John, who continued it with his repentance message which spoke in ways he didn’t understand about the new dawn.

The pharisees onsite (Lk.16:14) were opposing God’s kingdom (Mt.11:12), both in its Sinai garb and its new iteration beginning to take shape (that messianic kingdom seed was among them: Lk.17:21), but were urged to repent and enter into it (Lk.16:16).

Note too how Jhn.1:12 speaks of ethnic Jews (such as Mary) who had welcomed Jesus as messiah, himself the dawning kingdom, and who therefore had a right to become, ie weren’t at that stage, children of God in the messianic kingdom sense that was soon to rise with his resurrection. There was a partial reality before the cross, an is, but not the fully is (Jhn.4:23).

Presumably Yeshua had spoken of both aspects of forceful opposition and forceful encouragement.

The new testament/covenant scriptures cover the backstory of the messianic kingdom by the four Gospels, which all take us into the new covenant switch (Golgotha), whereupon Acts takes over. Christianity thus began some weeks prior to Pentecost, with the welcoming of Jesus as risen from death (women were the first Christians), and his death being the atonement point which the eucharist wine had been set up those few hours earlier to symbolise.

 

[journeyman]

When did the old testament end, before Jesus shed the blood of the new testament ?
On the same day ?
It is written..."And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." (Mark 14:24)

The collators of bible scriptures call them the new testament, even though lots of its events happened years before Jesus shed His blood.
It is written..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16)

Isn't there a sort of donut hole between John and Jesus' shed blood ?

Hello Hopeful 2.
I think John showed Jesus' shed blood by having his head chopped off by Herod for no lawful reason.
When we could use the law to condemn others who have wronged us but choose to forgive, we follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

 

[journeyman]

The OT sacrifice was silent while being killed, so "Christ opened not His mouth" (in judgment against them.) The offerer confessed his sin over the sacrifice and was forgiven. Now His sacrifice lives on in us also.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The Law was a schoolmaster to bring to faith. The faith of Abraham, before the Law was given.
The Law was meant to show the Jews their own inability to adhere fully to its demands and therefore seek mercy.
It was a shadow which pointed forward.
It’s called “New” in the sense of being newly brought into force by the death of the testator, who is Christ.

So you agree with me that the NT started at Jesus' death.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Reminder, this is not a debate forum. If the intention of the OP is to defend his position against the answers given, then I suggest we move this discussion.

I agree, as I am trying to establish the fact that calling all of what is now published as "The New Testament" is just a little bit erroneous.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The old covenant (testament is traditional but a little weak) ended at the point of Jesus’ death—

“The law and the prophets were in force until John; since then, the good news of the kingdom of God has been proclaimed, and everyone is urged to enter it”

I think "in force" is a tad off the mark.
The OT didn't end at John.
It couldn't, until a new testament had begun.
Some of the OT's prophesies had yet to be fulfilled.

The new testament/covenant scriptures cover the backstory of the messianic kingdom by the four Gospels, which all take us into the new covenant switch (Golgotha), whereupon Acts takes over.

I feel the "labelers" mislabeled some of the NT.
They included the end of the OT in what they called the NT.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hello Hopeful 2.
I think John showed Jesus' shed blood by having his head chopped off by Herod for no lawful reason.
When we could use the law to condemn others who have wronged us but choose to forgive, we follow the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Though a tad off topic, still interesting.
Your point may have held some water, if the forgiveness of Herod had been mentioned.

Personally, I've never considered John's blood in any way prophetic of the Lord's blood.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The OT sacrifice was silent while being killed, so "Christ opened not His mouth" (in judgment against them.) The offerer confessed his sin over the sacrifice and was forgiven. Now His sacrifice lives on in us also.

So you are saying that until the death of Jesus, the OT remained.
I agree.
Heb 9:15-17 does too..."And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

I feel that the bible should have been "titled" OT, Gospels, NT.

 

[Vinny37]

I think "in force" is a tad off the mark.
The OT didn't end at John.
It couldn't, until a new testament had begun.
Some of the OT's prophesies had yet to be fulfilled.

I feel the "labelers" mislabeled some of the NT.
They included the end of the OT in what they called the NT.

Part A: the text does not say that the old covenant (Sinai) ended with John, merely that it was still in force with him, but perhaps ἑως as “have been” instead of “were” would better convey Jesus’ words here. A bit like a relay race, for a stretch only one runner (Moses), then a second began to run (Jesus), then the first handed over the baton and retired from the race at the cross. OT prophecies are a subject for another day, but they are not control, merely prediction. For justification of the supplied “in force”, see the NET footnote.

Part B: that’s a subjective judgement on which we may happily disagree. The two general labels are not canonical, and indeed the OT covers much backstory, even if from a perspective of the Adamic covenant. The Gospels were some backstory/instory writings of the new covenant, whatever we choose to call the corpora.

 

[miamited]

Hi Hopeful 2

It's my understanding that the old covenant ended when it was completed. According to Jesus, that was as he expired on the cross. That was one of the last statements that he made to us. "It is finished!"

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeyman]

So you are saying that until the death of Jesus, the OT remained.
I agree.

The condemnation of the law still remains for unbelievers,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45 KJV

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:12 KJV

Heb 9:15-17 does too..."And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth."

I feel that the bible should have been "titled" OT, Gospels, NT.

I believe the scriptures all say the same thing. The Testator confirmed His word when (unlike any sacrifice before) He rose from the dead,

a more sureword of prophecy 2Pet.1:19 KJV

 

[Hopeful 2]

Part A: the text does not say that the old covenant (Sinai) ended with John,

I am glad you agree with me.
Others from a different thread had asserted that the old covenant ended at John the Baptist based on Matt 11:13..."For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John."
I don't agree with that assertion.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi Hopeful 2

It's my understanding that the old covenant ended when it was completed.

I agree.

According to Jesus, that was as he expired on the cross. That was one of the last statements that he made to us. "It is finished!"

Though He didn't say what was finished, I can't disagree with you.
BTW, He also said..."I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do." (John 17:4)
Some could contend that was the end of the OC.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The condemnation of the law still remains for unbelievers,

I agree.

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45 KJV
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:12 KJV
I believe the scriptures all say the same thing.

Yep.

The Testator confirmed His word when (unlike any sacrifice before) He rose from the dead,

Though not part of this thread, you are correct.

 

[journeyman]

I agree.

Yep.

Though not part of this thread, you are correct.

The beginning of the NT is found in Genesis,

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen.3:15 KJV

 

[Hopeful 2]

The beginning of the NT is found in Genesis,

And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen.3:15 KJV

A prophesy that it is coming doesn't make it existent.

 

[journeyman]

A prophesy that it is coming doesn't make it existent.

It does since Eve represents Christs' church and the Church is part of His body.
What happened to the Messiah happened to His body also.