The beginning of the new testament.

[Hopeful 2]

When did the old testament end, before Jesus shed the blood of the new testament ?
On the same day ?
It is written..."And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." (Mark 14:24)

The collators of bible scriptures call them the new testament, even though lots of its events happened years before Jesus shed His blood.
It is written..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16)

Isn't there a sort of donut hole between John and Jesus' shed blood ?

 

[miamited]

HI Hopeful 2

Though He didn't say what was finished, I can't disagree with you.

Right, but if we look into 'what' could have been finished, there aren't a lot of options. I mean, unless Jesus is a liar, something was finished at that point according to the normal understanding of anyone making such a statement in the manner in which he made it. It is finished! What could it be?

Well, if we understand that God's call to Abraham of Ur in beginning His work of raising up a nation to do His bidding upon the earth; and we understand that such bidding was, according to Paul, to write the Scriptures and, according to Daniel, bringing in everlasting righteousness, God had been working out a plan of action through the Old Covenant. That's why the promise to Israel wasn't eternal salvation. All that was available for them was safety and security and provision in this life for all the generations that would practice and live out Judaism upon the earth. Eternal salvation wasn't available for anyone until Jesus died and so there wouldn't have been any way for God to promise Israel eternal salvation. That's why we have a 'new covenant'.

There was no salvation for those under the old covenant of the law, but there was God's promise that life would go well with them as they lived upon the earth. Their vats would be overflowing with new wine. Their flocks and their hearts and their crops would be plentiful. They would live in security in their homes and their enemies would fall before them and run away even though no one was chasing them.

So God sets a plan in motion and spends some 1200 years having His testimony to all mankind written down so that we would know and understand what was going on when this Messiah, that the Scriptures mentioned, would come. But the end of that work, what the testimony of God pointed us to, was the Messiah. God even told Daniel exactly when Messiah would be here. That's why the wise men, of the new covenant knew to be looking for the promised King. They had read Daniel's prophecy and understood that we were right at the door of the end of the 69 sevens. So they went to Israel looking for the King of the Jews.

And Jesus finished all of that work. His death was the culmination of a plan that God had been working to show mankind. Through the recording of His Scriptures and the raising up of a special people on the earth beholden and honoring to Him, God worked out a plan to bring His Son into the world that would provide eternal salvation. Not only to all of Israel, but also to all the Gentile nations. When Jesus died, that plan was finished. It was complete.

The story had been told and recorded and the deed that brought us our salvation was done. After Jesus said those words, we moved into what the Scriptures refer to as the last days. Even Peter quoted from Scripture that those men who were speaking in tongues at Pentecost was a fulfillment of God's promise to pour out His Spirit on men 'in the last days'. So, Peter seems to have thought that we were in the last days at Pentecost.

I contend that 'what' was finished was the working out of God's perfect plan to bring salvation to all mankind. However, I'm always open to look into other's understandings. What else could have been finished when Jesus spoke those words?

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again Hopeful 2

The actual writing of all that is recorded and kept by God's people as the old covenant, ended about 400 years before Jesus came. But I believe that the old covenant became worthless to anyone after Jesus died. I mean, like I say, the old covenant didn't make any promise of eternal life as one of the rewards for being obedient to God's commands given in the wilderness to His people. Even the Scriptures declare at one point that no flesh will be saved by keeping the law. The old covenant law was merely for peace and security for the OBEDIENT people of God. Of course, that didn't really work out as well as it could have, but God's will through His people was still accomplished.

They wrote down the Scriptures and they slaughtered the final Passover Lamb. Both assignments for them that God had given them.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

If our Lord is going to judge sinners by what the law says, then the OT doesn't end (in the sense of being meaningless), because the Throne of God is forever above His Testimony.
The Life came from His blood covering the law,

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. Heb.9:19-20 KJV

Moses was warning them about their own conduct. Same as the NT,

Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Lk.6:36

For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment. Jas.2:13 NKJV

So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses. Mt.18:35 NKJV

He's saying He shed His blood to cover the law. He covered the way He was horribly mistreated by sinners who were violating the law.

He rose from death and will forgive any repentant and we'll know who repented when we stand before Him in judgment.

 

[Hopeful 2]

It does since Eve represents Christs' church and the Church is part of His body.

Rubbish.
Believers are the church.
We are part of His flesh and His bones. (Eph 5:30)
We represent Christ's church...unless one is a sinner.
Then they are just posers.

What happened to the Messiah happened to His body also.

OK, if you mean His skin and bones and hair and toes. etc.

 

[Hopeful 2]

HI Hopeful 2

Right, but if we look into 'what' could have been finished, there aren't a lot of options. I mean, unless Jesus is a liar, something was finished at that point according to the normal understanding of anyone making such a statement in the manner in which he made it. It is finished! What could it be?

Well, if we understand that God's call to Abraham of Ur in beginning His work of raising up a nation to do His bidding upon the earth; and we understand that such bidding was, according to Paul, to write the Scriptures and, according to Daniel, bringing in everlasting righteousness, God had been working out a plan of action through the Old Covenant. That's why the promise to Israel wasn't eternal salvation. All that was available for them was safety and security and provision in this life for all the generations that would practice and live out Judaism upon the earth. Eternal salvation wasn't available for anyone until Jesus died and so there wouldn't have been any way for God to promise Israel eternal salvation. That's why we have a 'new covenant'.

There was no salvation for those under the old covenant of the law, but there was God's promise that life would go well with them as they lived upon the earth. Their vats would be overflowing with new wine. Their flocks and their hearts and their crops would be plentiful. They would live in security in their homes and their enemies would fall before them and run away even though no one was chasing them.

So God sets a plan in motion and spends some 1200 years having His testimony to all mankind written down so that we would know and understand what was going on when this Messiah, that the Scriptures mentioned, would come. But the end of that work, what the testimony of God pointed us to, was the Messiah. God even told Daniel exactly when Messiah would be here. That's why the wise men, of the new covenant knew to be looking for the promised King. They had read Daniel's prophecy and understood that we were right at the door of the end of the 69 sevens. So they went to Israel looking for the King of the Jews.

And Jesus finished all of that work. His death was the culmination of a plan that God had been working to show mankind. Through the recording of His Scriptures and the raising up of a special people on the earth beholden and honoring to Him, God worked out a plan to bring His Son into the world that would provide eternal salvation. Not only to all of Israel, but also to all the Gentile nations. When Jesus died, that plan was finished. It was complete.

The story had been told and recorded and the deed that brought us our salvation was done. After Jesus said those words, we moved into what the Scriptures refer to as the last days. Even Peter quoted from Scripture that those men who were speaking in tongues at Pentecost was a fulfillment of God's promise to pour out His Spirit on men 'in the last days'. So, Peter seems to have thought that we were in the last days at Pentecost.

I contend that 'what' was finished was the working out of God's perfect plan to bring salvation to all mankind. However, I'm always open to look into other's understandings. What else could have been finished when Jesus spoke those words?

God bless,
Ted

I am all for that explanation, but something else ended at Jesus' death.
The Word's life in the flesh.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hi again Hopeful 2

The actual writing of all that is recorded and kept by God's people as the old covenant, ended about 400 years before Jesus came. But I believe that the old covenant became worthless to anyone after Jesus died. I mean, like I say, the old covenant didn't make any promise of eternal life as one of the rewards for being obedient to God's commands given in the wilderness to His people. Even the Scriptures declare at one point that no flesh will be saved by keeping the law. The old covenant law was merely for peace and security for the OBEDIENT people of God. Of course, that didn't really work out as well as it could have, but God's will through His people was still accomplished.

I wonder why the Pharisees believed in eternal life ?
What was the basis of their belief ?

They wrote down the Scriptures and they slaughtered the final Passover Lamb. Both assignments for them that God had given them.

 

[miamited]

I am all for that explanation, but something else ended at Jesus' death.
The Word's life in the flesh.

No, I can't see that as being what Jesus meant in telling us that something was finished. I'm still confident that his words, while we may understand that the Word's life in the flesh was also coming to an end, weren't being said to us to convey that thought.

I wonder why the Pharisees believed in eternal life ?

Well, the old covenant Scriptures do talk about a resurrection unto eternal life, but it isn't ever said to be obtained by keeping the law. It was always a future event that was going to come from someone that Moses had talked about. There was going to come a Messiah, an anointed one. That's what the Hebrew word means. And the old covenant tells about him, and also says that it is he who would save God's people from their sin. They have to understand and believe the gospel and follow God's righteous way to eternal life just like any of us. There are not two ways to God's salvation. One to keep the law, or another to believe in the work of Jesus.

So, the old covenant has never promised eternal life. That comes only through faith in God's one and only Son, Jesus. Which is the new covenant that God also explained through the prophets.

What was the basis of their belief ?

The law was their belief. That's what God spoke to them and caused to be written down for them. But that law, if you read the consequences for obedience never mentions anything other than things that are received here on the earth. That law was given to them as the beginning of God's working out the continuing building of a nation from the Hebrews coming out of Egypt. God promised Abraham that his descendants would number like the sand on the shores. God made that a reality. But His purpose in making that promise to Abraham was that He wanted a nation of people that would be known as His people so that we today can look back and know that everything we read and know about God, came to us through the hands of this special group of people who have lived upon the earth since the days of Abraham and Lot. Through the days of captivity in Egypt and the 40 years of their wanderings. We can look back and know that what we know about God has been carefully preserved throughout the centuries of the earth's existence by the people that God raised up as a promise to a man named Abram who lived in a city called Ur, at the time.

You see, when God called Abram, He was looking far into the future of the existence of mankind upon the earth. He was looking to a day when He would bring it all to a close and sift out the wheat from the chaff. He raised up Abram to do a great work among men, for God's purpose to bring salvation to all mankind. And through thick and thin and disobedience and rebellion and stiff-necked attitudes, God's overall will prevailed in their doing exactly what God had raised them up since the days of Abraham to be.

They wrote the Scriptures and they slaughtered the final Passover Lamb. Then it was finished. The plan was in place and everything that God needed to be done to make Himself known and His glory and majesty made known to us, was completed when Jesus paid for our sin. The plan was all written down with hundreds of prophecies salted throughout that as we studied God's words, we began to find that all of His prophecies came true also. That was how God told Israel that they could know who the real God was and I contend that it is still the way that we can be assured that there is this God in heaven who the Jewish Scriptures reveal to us.

God bless,
Ted

 

[miamited]

Hey Hopeful 2

Do you have any idea the wonder and marvel of the prophecy that the angel gave unto Daniel in Babylon? Have you ever really sat down and put a pencil to the dates and tried to figure out 'how' Daniel could possibly have 'guessed' that some decree would be issued nearly 80 years after his death to rebuild Jerusalem. But then from that start date, of which Daniel could not have had any clue when it would be, a clock started ticking off years until the prophecy tells us that Messiah would be here and be cut off.

So, 500 years before Jesus was ever known, a man in Babylon wrote a prophecy that predicted the very time to the year that he would be here. But it was predicated on a clock that wouldn't start for 80 years after the prophecy was given, and the prophet himself was long dead. Friend, I don't know how much faith you have in coincidence, but that is beyond anything that could be considered coincidental. For me, that prophecy alone proves to me that there is a God over Israel, and thus over the rest of us.

I contend that's why the wise men came from the east a couple of years after Jesus was born. They had read Daniel's prophecy and knew that the time was at hand.

God bless,
Ted

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, I can't see that as being what Jesus meant in telling us that something was finished. I'm still confident that his words, while we may understand that the Word's life in the flesh was also coming to an end, weren't being said to us to convey that thought.

It is anyone's guess.

Well, the old covenant Scriptures do talk about a resurrection unto eternal life, but it isn't ever said to be obtained by keeping the law. It was always a future event that was going to come from someone that Moses had talked about. There was going to come a Messiah, an anointed one. That's what the Hebrew word means. And the old covenant tells about him, and also says that it is he who would save God's people from their sin. They have to understand and believe the gospel and follow God's righteous way to eternal life just like any of us. There are not two ways to God's salvation. One to keep the law, or another to believe in the work of Jesus.

That last sentence doomed millions of pre-Jesus Jews.
I think many Jews were able to keep doing the Law's atonements, along with faith in their coming Redeemer, to be saved on the last day.
Simeon and Anna in the temple, in Luke 2, come to mind

So, the old covenant has never promised eternal life. That comes only through faith in God's one and only Son, Jesus. Which is the new covenant that God also explained through the prophets.

What scripture did you use above to say that eternal life and resurrection were spoken of in the OT ?

 

[Hopeful 2]

Hey Hopeful 2

Do you have any idea the wonder and marvel of the prophecy that the angel gave unto Daniel in Babylon? Have you ever really sat down and put a pencil to the dates and tried to figure out 'how' Daniel could possibly have 'guessed' that some decree would be issued nearly 80 years after his death to rebuild Jerusalem. But then from that start date, of which Daniel could not have had any clue when it would be, a clock started ticking off years until the prophecy tells us that Messiah would be here and be cut off.

So, 500 years before Jesus was ever known, a man in Babylon wrote a prophecy that predicted the very time to the year that he would be here. But it was predicated on a clock that wouldn't start for 80 years after the prophecy was given, and the prophet himself was long dead. Friend, I don't know how much faith you have in coincidence, but that is beyond anything that could be considered coincidental. For me, that prophecy alone proves to me that there is a God over Israel, and thus over the rest of us.

No doubt about it.

I contend that's why the wise men came from the east a couple of years after Jesus was born. They had read Daniel's prophecy and knew that the time was at hand.

A couple of years ?
I think you are jumping to conclusions

 

[miamited]

Morning Hopeful 2

It is anyone's guess.

Well, I don't think so. I believe that Jesus had a purpose in saying every word that he spoke while he was with us. I believe that God doesn't really want us to know His word as being a guessing game of what He has meant to convey to us.

That last sentence doomed millions of pre-Jesus Jews.

Why is that? Jesus preached to them, too. That's where he was during his time in the grave. He went and stood before all the dead resting in their graves and revealed himself to them, too.

What scripture did you use above to say that eternal life and resurrection were spoken of in the OT ?

Job has one of he most clear explanations:

I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

Isaiah speaks of it:

Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

There are a few others, but suffice to say that it was a belief of the Jews. Martha spoke of it to Jesus. The Samaritan woman spoke of it to Jesus. Part of the division between the Sadducees and the Pharisees was the issue of the resurrection of the dead.

A couple of years ?
I think you are jumping to conclusions

How so? The account is that the wise men came to Jerusalem first and asked of King Herod where the child was? That after they had left, Herod ordered all male children 2 years old or younger to be killed. So, it was accepted that the wise men didn't visit Jesus at his birth, even though our popular Christmas cards seem to show that it was. So, it seems clear that no one knew exactly when Jesus had been born. And exactly how long it was between his birth and the visit of the wise men. So when I speak of it, I allow that it could have been a couple of years after his birth that the wise men visited the promised child.

Why do you think the wise men picked that very time to travel to Jerusalem? However, the overall explanation that I'm providing for the work of Israel in fulfilling God's purpose in our salvation, isn't affected by that point.

God raised up Israel to be His people to do His bidding upon the earth. Throughout the 1500 years of the old covenant being written down God sprinkled prophecies liberally throughout. God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine. He knows that the only way He can show Himself to know the end from the beginning and to thus exist, is through fulfilled prophecy. To say that something is going to happen as time unfolds... and it does. As in the case of Daniel's prophecy it took 500 years for that one to unfold and there just isn't anyway that Daniel could have picked the very year that Jesus would be with us and be cut off from the abilities of his own knowledge. So that begs the question. Where did that knowledge that he wrote down 500 years before a specific event came for Messiah to visit the earth.

God bless,
Ted

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Rubbish.
Believers are the church.
We are part of His flesh and His bones. (Eph 5:30)

That's what Adam said to Eve. God told Eve,

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen.3:16 KJV

This is why Paul said,

My little children, of whom I travail in birth...Gal.4:19 KJV

OK, if you mean His skin and bones and hair and toes. etc.

They rejected His Spirit and people who persecute His followers do the same,

ye do always resist the Holy Ghost Act.7:51 KJV

 

[Tenchi]

I agree, as I am trying to establish the fact that calling all of what is now published as "The New Testament" is just a little bit erroneous.

Matthew 23:24
24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

2 Timothy 2:14
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Titus 3:9
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

 

[deepfaithpraise]

When did the old testament end, before Jesus shed the blood of the new testament ?
On the same day ?
It is written..."And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many." (Mark 14:24)

The collators of bible scriptures call them the new testament, even though lots of its events happened years before Jesus shed His blood.
It is written..."The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it." (Luke 16:16)

Isn't there a sort of donut hole between John and Jesus' shed blood ?

The concern about a "donut hole" or gap between John the Baptist and Jesus' crucifixion is addressed through understanding the continuous unfolding of God's plan. The period of Jesus' ministry, from His baptism by John to His crucifixion, represents the transitional phase where the Old Covenant's promises are actively being fulfilled in real-time.

The Church views both Testaments as integral parts of a single divine revelation. As stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New (CCC 128-129).

 

[Hopeful 2]

Morning Hopeful 2
Well, I don't think so. I believe that Jesus had a purpose in saying every word that he spoke while he was with us. I believe that God doesn't really want us to know His word as being a guessing game of what He has meant to convey to us.

"It is finished" could mean several things.

Why is that? Jesus preached to them, too. That's where he was during his time in the grave. He went and stood before all the dead resting in their graves and revealed himself to them, too.

That is not correct.
The Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead was the same Spirit whereby men of the OT heard the preaching of righteousness.
It is written..."...but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,..." (1 Peter 3:18-20)
Peter referenced those preachers in chapter 1..."Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven;" (1 Peter 1:10-12)

Job has one of he most clear explanations:
I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!
Isaiah speaks of it:
Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy! For your dew is a dew of light, and the earth will give birth to the dead. and the earth will give birth to the dead. Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

See ?
OT prophets made it known well before Jesus' death.

How so? The account is that the wise men came to Jerusalem first and asked of King Herod where the child was? That after they had left, Herod ordered all male children 2 years old or younger to be killed. So, it was accepted that the wise men didn't visit Jesus at his birth, even though our popular Christmas cards seem to show that it was. So, it seems clear that no one knew exactly when Jesus had been born. And exactly how long it was between his birth and the visit of the wise men. So when I speak of it, I allow that it could have been a couple of years after his birth that the wise men visited the promised child.

I guess some didn't accept it, but I do.
The magi didn't know how old the Child was when they spoke to Herod, so Herod just covered all the possibilities.
As nothing is written to establish anything, it is pointless to hash it out.

Why do you think the wise men picked that very time to travel to Jerusalem? However, the overall explanation that I'm providing for the work of Israel in fulfilling God's purpose in our salvation, isn't affected by that point.

They followed the star.

God raised up Israel to be His people to do His bidding upon the earth. Throughout the 1500 years of the old covenant being written down God sprinkled prophecies liberally throughout. God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine. He knows that the only way He can show Himself to know the end from the beginning and to thus exist, is through fulfilled prophecy. To say that something is going to happen as time unfolds... and it does. As in the case of Daniel's prophecy it took 500 years for that one to unfold and there just isn't anyway that Daniel could have picked the very year that Jesus would be with us and be cut off from the abilities of his own knowledge. So that begs the question.

Where did that knowledge that he wrote down 500 years before a specific event came for Messiah to visit the earth.

That is an incomplete sentence.

 

[Hopeful 2]

That's what Adam said to Eve. God told Eve,
I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen.3:16 KJV

How did you turn that into..."Eve represents Christ's church" ?
I don't want the first sinner representing the church I love.

This is why Paul said,
My little children, of whom I travail in birth...Gal.4:19 KJV

You are off on some tangent that I am not following.

They rejected His Spirit and people who persecute His followers do the same,
ye do always resist the Holy Ghost Act.7:51 KJV

 

[Hopeful 2]

Matthew 23:24
24 "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!

2 Timothy 2:14
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

Titus 3:9
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

I'm not talking about the Law; just the labeling of the New Testament.

 

[Hopeful 2]

The concern about a "donut hole" or gap between John the Baptist and Jesus' crucifixion is addressed through understanding the continuous unfolding of God's plan. The period of Jesus' ministry, from His baptism by John to His crucifixion, represents the transitional phase where the Old Covenant's promises are actively being fulfilled in real-time.

The Church views both Testaments as integral parts of a single divine revelation. As stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the New Testament lies hidden in the Old, and the Old Testament is unveiled in the New (CCC 128-129).

Do you thing the OT ended at John ?
Or did that happen at the shedding of the blood of the new covenant ?

 

[journeymanisnothing]

How did you turn that into..."Eve represents Christ's church" ?

The woman (Eve) represents the church. You just quoted Paul...who was quoting Adam...about Eve.
Here is the figure again,

This mystery is great - but I am actually speaking with reference to Christ and the church. Eph.5:32 NET

I don't want the first sinner representing the church I love.

And you and I (and every other believer in Jesus on earth) the church...is no different from Eve.
Eve sinned in ignorance, not really knowing good and evil before eating from the tree. Like a child being coaxed, not really sure something is bad.
God covered Eve (as He does all repentant sinners) and I'm showing you how the Apostles interpreted this "husband/wife relationship" from what Jesus and the Holy Spirit said.

You are off on some tangent that I am not following.

There is no tangent in how God holds marriage sacred. The Messiah quoting Genesis,

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh Mt.19:6 KJV

Now Paul,

What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 1Cor.6:17

Now Adam and Eve both sinned, but God still wants us to fruitful (just outside of clearly seeing Eden (Paradice), but God told them by faith they could reenter and they would be tested (child bearing/ growing crops etc. - see NT teaching on child bearing and sowing, reaping, etc.)

Personally, I think theologians have bastardized Eve. God said honor our fathers and mothers. And He knows none of us are perfect. I think Eve was a (the 1st) believing parent,

Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Gen.3:20 KJV

Adam speaking of both our fleshly bodies and being born again by Eve teaching her offspring one of them would somehow crush the deceivers head.

 

[miamited]

Hi Hopeful 2

"It is finished" could mean several things.

Right and that was the question that I first brought up. 'What' could it be referring to. Now you say that it could mean several things. Ok, fine. Write some of them out here in a response to me and we'll discuss it. That's exactly what my opening on this discussion was.

That is an incomplete sentence.

Sorry. You're right. It should have read "where did that knowledge 'come from' that he...

Thanks for the correction.

God bless,
Ted