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Bible Study The Bible doesn't pull any punches...

J

JohnD

Member
...but it does not go into lewd details either.

Ever wonder why in Genesis 9:20-27 Noah cursed Canaan?
His father Ham did the dirty deed.
Now it could be that nudity was still a touchy subject so much nearer to the original sin in Eden in those days. But when interpreting the passage with the mindset of the ancient Middle East, the "nakedness of Noah" could mean something else.
Leviticus 18:8 (NASB95)
8‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness.
Indeed uncovering the nakedness of... in that mindset was as to say "having sexual relations with..."
The entire chapter of Leviticus 18 describes who one should not have sexual relations with describing it as "uncovering the nakedness of..."

So it would make more sense that Noah cursed the offspring of an incestuous event between Ham and Noah's wife (his mother) and Canaan (the eventual nation) was essentially doomed from the get go. God gave them 400 years to repent as the Jews sojourned in Egypt. But they never did.

The Bible doesn't pull any punches.

 
When I am down on myself for being far less than I ought to be... I seek assurance in the Bible for the people God used who were after all only human also.
 
Genesis 9 doesn't give us all the details, but it does give enough information to give us some idea of what happened.

First, even though it says Ham saw his father's nakedness, Noah didn't curse Ham. He cursed Ham's son Canaan instead. Why is that? I think the key is in the word "youngest" in verse 24.

Whenever Noah's sons are named, it is always in the order "Shem, Ham, and Japheth" (Genesis 5:32, 6:10, 7:13, 9:18, 10:1, 1 Chronicles 1:4). As in biblical genealogies elsewhere, the order of the names indicates the birth order. Shem was first-born, followed by Ham, then Japheth. Ham was not Noah's firstborn, so "his youngest son" could not be referring to him. (Genesis 10:21 is incorrectly translated in some translations. It should say "To Shem ... the elder brother of Japheth...", as it is in the ASV, Bishop's Bible (1568), ESV, Geneva (1587), HCSB, ISV, VW, WEB, and others.) If the order of names is not birth order and Ham really was the youngest, why was his name moved from last into a more honorable position?

However, Ham's sons are listed in Genesis 10:6 as Cush, Mizraim, Put, and Canaan. The order shows Canaan was Ham's youngest son. So Genesis 9:24 is referring to what Canaan did to Noah, not to what Ham did. (It was Ham's youngest son, not Noah's youngest son.) Otherwise, why didn't Noah curse Ham, or one or all of Ham's other sons? Why was Canaan singled out?

The underlying story is that Canaan did something shameful (probably sexually abusive) to his grandfather, and got a curse to himself and his descendants for it.
 
JohnD said:
...but it does not go into lewd details either.

Ever wonder why in Genesis 9:20-27 Noah cursed Canaan?
His father Ham did the dirty deed.
Now it could be that nudity was still a touchy subject so much nearer to the original sin in Eden in those days. But when interpreting the passage with the mindset of the ancient Middle East, the "nakedness of Noah" could mean something else.
Leviticus 18:8 (NASB95)
8‘You shall not uncover the nakedness of your father’s wife; it is your father’s nakedness.
Indeed uncovering the nakedness of... in that mindset was as to say "having sexual relations with..."
The entire chapter of Leviticus 18 describes who one should not have sexual relations with describing it as "uncovering the nakedness of..."

So it would make more sense that Noah cursed the offspring of an incestuous event between Ham and Noah's wife (his mother) and Canaan (the eventual nation) was essentially doomed from the get go. God gave them 400 years to repent as the Jews sojourned in Egypt. But they never did.

The Bible doesn't pull any punches.
Click to expand...
There have been many suggestions as to what happened between Ham and his father Noah. In Genesis 9:24. It says that.... "Noah awoke from his wine, he knew what his youngest son had done to him.".... It is obvious that Ham did something to his father but does not indicate what is was. I'm of the opinion that though it may be fun for some people to imagine what Ham did, but when the Holy Scriptures are silent, so am I.

I certainly agree with you John that the Bible does not pull any punches, and It's interesting to me to hear of the different opinions of what may have happened, probably one of the opinions just might be true. Hey, there's nothing to say that you just might be right that Ham has sex with his mother.
 
JohnD
I agree with you, I have studied it myself.
Amen!
Also in 1Cor.5:1 it was practiced
It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
 
Gen.9:24
And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

It could mean,
Younger=than Japheth, not Shem
 
he didn't cover his dad and mocked him. It says that noah was drunk and so much so that he lie naked in his tent and shem saw it and told the others. the other two then rather then see the shame , walked backwards and covered him. shem could have went in and once he saw noah from behind and then told the others, hey he is naked and we need to cover him.
 
jasonc said:
he didn't cover his dad and mocked him. It says that noah was drunk and so much so that he lie naked in his tent and shem saw it and told the others. the other two then rather then see the shame , walked backwards and covered him. shem could have went in and once he saw noah from behind and then told the others, hey he is naked and we need to cover him.
Click to expand...

It was Ham not Shem. And if you are correct about what Ham did then the curse should have been on Ham not Canaan. Right?
 
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Even in the days when the human genome was strong enough and free enough of defective DNA that what we would consider incest today was permissible / necessary in the two biogenesis' of scripture (human procreation of the children of Adam and Eve and the children of Ham, Shem and Japheth)... returning to the womb was forbidden.

Remember, these times predated the Law against such things. Even still there were understood codes like do not commit adultery, and do not return to the womb (sex with one's own mother).
 
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JohnD said:
Even in the days when the human genome was strong enough and free enough of defective DNA that what we would consider incest today was permissible / necessary in the two biogenesis' of scripture (human procreation of the children of Adam and Eve and the children of Ham, Shem and Japheth)... returning to the womb was forbidden.

Remember, these times predated the Law against such things. Even still there were understood codes like do not commit adultery, and do not return to the womb (sex with one's own mother).
Click to expand...

The act of Lots daughters was undoubtedly due the influence and contamination of living in Sodom and Gomorrah, btw.
 
JohnD said:
The act of Lots daughters was undoubtedly due the influence and contamination of living in Sodom and Gomorrah, btw.
Click to expand...

Hi JohnD
I believe that all races were created before the man Adam and Eve.
Gen.1:27, created male and female created he them.
Gen 5:2
Male and female created he them and called their name Adam. (Mankind)
God rested.
Gen.2:5 there was no man to till the ground
7, he formed this man Adam and placed him in the garden.
Breath into his nostrils the breath of life.
This Adam is whom the Christ seed would come through, from umbilical cord to umbilical cord.
Eve was called the mother of all living because, the Christ seed come through her, eventually.
For God is not the God of the dead but of the living.

That is how Cain found his wife in the land of Nod.
Others were created.
My belief.
 
The Genesis 2 account is a more detailed and focused version of the Genesis 1 account. Genesis 2:5 rewinds time a bit to before plants and before man. Then it gives a more detailed account of the summary in Genesis 1:26-27.

If there are two races of man, then you run into problems: Adam and Eve were not made in the image of God. They were not given dominion over the earth. God did not really 'rest' from His creation. The first race didn't fall. Etc. Not to mention it leaves a door open to discrimination against certain people of whom it may be claimed they are not of the 'living' race (making Acts 17:26 a lie).
 
AndyBern said:
The Genesis 2 account is a more detailed and focused version of the Genesis 1 account. Genesis 2:5 rewinds time a bit to before plants and before man. Then it gives a more detailed account of the summary in Genesis 1:26-27.

If there are two races of man, then you run into problems: Adam and Eve were not made in the image of God. They were not given dominion over the earth. God did not really 'rest' from His creation. The first race didn't fall. Etc. Not to mention it leaves a door open to discrimination against certain people of whom it may
be claimed they are not of the 'living' race (making Acts 17:26 a lie).
Click to expand...

Salvation is for all. No discrimination.
The Christ seed had to come through some race.
The Bible is about Christs' history, his story.
God is still working today, in my opinion.
Who places the souls in each child born?
In Gen.1:28, he told them to multiply and replenish the earth.
They were placed in the garden, right? So how could that be?
Then in Gen.3:15,16, what was Eve's punishment?
I will put enemity between thee and the woman (speaking to Satan) and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. (Christ, eventually from umbilical cord to umbilical cord)
Unto the woman He states, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception, in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children.
Then they were kicked out of the garden.

How do you think, where all the races come from?
 
Miss Diane you are entitled to your beliefs / opinions. The biblical evidence supports the genome of mankind being so near perfection that close relations (what is today incest) were not only done but necessary to continue the human race after the deaths of Adam and Eve. A huge part of the evidence for that strength in the genome is the longevity of mankind (900+ years) which dwindled down as the species reproduced generation after generation. If your belief is true, then why did the longevity dwindle? And it did long before the 120 year verse (Genesis 6:3).
 
How is it generically possible that two of the same race have children of a different race?
Can you show in the Word where it stated it dwindled?
It dwindled after the flood, but I believe two of all flesh, (different races) were upon the Ark.
It just zero's in on the lineage of Christ. Like Adam and Eve.
 
All of today's races come through Noah and his wife. If those two can contain the genetic material for many races, then so can Adam and Eve.
 
JohnD said:
The act of Lots daughters was undoubtedly due the influence and contamination of living in Sodom and Gomorrah, btw.
Click to expand...
uhm moses and his family were born of incest. the concept of why lot and his daughter is this. imagine you know of the flood and were told and met one of the sons of noah. its likely they were alive when lot was born. then this type of destruction occurs. you live in a cave and not in the city. so you don't know if the entire world is left. that is why they say there is NOT a man left after the manner of men to go into us. uhm there was plenty of incest per se after the flood. 8 people. do the math. sisters and brothers. im not saying that it was right just that we have to consider the time and what happened.
 
dianegcook said:
How is it generically possible that two of the same race have children of a different race?
Can you show in the Word where it stated it dwindled?
It dwindled after the flood, but I believe two of all flesh, (different races) were upon the Ark.
It just zero's in on the lineage of Christ. Like Adam and Eve.
Click to expand...

Sorry.

1 Peter 3:20 (NASB95)
20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
 
JohnD said:
Sorry.

1 Peter 3:20 (NASB95)
20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water.
Click to expand...

Yes, 8 that would carry forth the Christ seed.
As I stated, the Bible is the story of Christ.
 
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