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The Bible

Eventide said:
Maybe when you're able to hear the voice of God in the scriptures.. let me know.
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More cliches. That's all you got?

Besides the Sacred Scriptures, the Lord speaks to me in situations that have nothing to do with the Canonized Scriptures. I can read a non-Scriptural book, such as the Life of St. Francis of Assisi, and hear the Lord speak to me through those words, so your means is not a foolproof method of discovering the canon. Clearly, the life of St. Francis is not Scriptures. Your method is for people who don't realize how they come to know what the Scriptures are...

If I hear the Word of the Lord on the "street", does that mean that this person is also "The Word of the Lord"??? Fred Doe is part of the Scriptures, too? :shame

How about the sunset? If I feel the Lord speaking to me through nature, is that Scriptures, too???

Really, when you build upon sand, don't expect your position to hold up to scrutiny. A thinking person will quickly see the silliness of your position.

So again, how do you know Philemon is part of the Bible, while the letter of Clement to the Corinthians is not? Or Wisdom?

Let me answer that for you - because you have already been TOLD by MEN. You are just in denial.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
Wonderful. So when you read "Philemon", you hear the voice of God - or is it that a man/men told you that "Philemon" is part of the Bible, part of the Word of God? There is noting in Philemon to tell me it is from God independent of any Church or body of authoritative men.

I subscribe to reality. Let's get real... If we relied on the "burning in our bosom" as the only means of determining the Word of God, we'd have to accept the Book of Mormons and the Koran, since some men also get that "burning in the bosom" when reading it. And note that some men reject your burning in the bosom.

It just doesn't seem to work, does it...

We believe that the Bible is the Word of God, its entire contents, because we trust in the witness given to us by the Apostles, given to us by the Church. We trust that God inspired men. Bottom line. Don't confuse what you have been told by men with "God told me this is the Bible". You have picked up a book called "the bible" and was told by men that the "bible" is the Word of God. God didn't tell you that.

Regards
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As strange as it would seem to some, God told me that the Bible is the very Word of God. Read my testimony under "The Gadarene." God bless.
 
francisdesales said:
Really, when you build upon sand, don't expect your position to hold up to scrutiny. A thinking person will quickly see the silliness of your position.
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And a Christian should confess that they were born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever... although that's obviously not true in your case.. you're telling me that you believe that the bible is the word of God because men told you that it is..

So there's your trust.. in men.. and of course you must maintain something like this in order for your church to be the one true church etc etc etc..

I have no problem with this Francis.. enjoy.
 
sdktlk said:
As strange as it would seem to some, God told me that the Bible is the very Word of God. Read my testimony under "The Gadarene." God bless.
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Sure, I hear the same stuff from door-to-door Mormons and JW's about their "bibles"...

What is amazing to me is how people prop up their personal opinions by claiming "God told me". This is nothing new. Such subjective standards cannot be useful for determining the canon of Scriptures for a large organization. Nor is it useful for individuals, since "God" might change His mind if a person were to convert to Islam or Mormonism or Judaism or even to Agnosticism/Atheism.

I can understand that God moves someone while reading the Scriptures, but God also moves us in many other ways, even in reading non-Scriptural items. Thus, determining the canon based upon "when God speaks to me" cannot work. I've been moved by God by reading secular writing. It depends upon the situation I am in and how God wants to act in my life. He doesn't need to relegate His speaking to me only through what we call "the Bible".

Men tell us what is Scriptures. We either believe them or we don't. We believe their witness that God spoke to inspire that community or we don't. We believe that Mohemmed is the prophet and was given the word of God, or we don't. We believe God gave Moses the ten commandments or we don't, based upon the witness of men.

Otherwise, we have "God telling" contradictory things to even Christians. Some Christians believe that "God told me" that the OT Deuterocanonicals are not Scriptures. Some Christians believe that God told them to remove James and Hebrews from the Bible. Some Christians believe that God told them that John 1:1 should be changed from all manuscripts of the Greeks. Some Christians change the meaning of the text in their translations. And so forth...

Simply put, God doesn't mark the canon of Sacred Scriptures by telling us individually, each and every one of us. Christ told the Apostles to preach and teach everything He taught them. We believe what those apostles wrote and spoke orally - we believe they spoke for God.

Regards
 
Eventide said:
And a Christian should confess that they were born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abides for ever... although that's obviously not true in your case..
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The incorruptible Word of God is Jesus, the Son of God, not a book called "the Bible". See John 1:1. As I have already said, men can and have corrupted the Bible, to include numerous Protestants who have removed part of the Sacred Scriptures at the whim of MEN, for God did not tell anyone to remove the OT Deuterocanonicals.

Of course, nowhere does the Bible delineate what is the contents of the Word of God. That fact escapes you, doesn't it. Why didn't God provide for such an inspired Table of Contents, if the "Bible" is supposed to be the center and source of our faith, a source that is NOT self-evident???

What is "obvious" is that you cannot resort to reasoned discussion without feeling the need to strut your supposed Pharisaical "Christian superiority". That is a pretty good sign that I am not dealing with a true disciple of Christ - no matter what you think about yourself. Disciples of Christ are humble, and you appear to lack that virtue.

Eventide said:
you're telling me that you believe that the bible is the word of God because men told you that it is..
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It is not quite that simple, since I have come to believe that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. You don't, thus, your unbelief in the truth of the situation regarding the Bible and Canon. Thus, it is particular men that I believe speak for God, as willed by God Himself. God doesn't directly tell us the contents of Scriptures. That is obvious by your inability to answer my simple question on how you know Philemon is inspired by God. Which verse tells us without doubt that it is from God???

The fact is that it is included in every man-printed Christian Bible, so you accept it as part of the whole. A whole that was already determined by men hundreds of years ago by our Church, moved by God to express those contents and limit it.

Regards
 
francisdesales said:
What is "obvious" is that you cannot resort to reasoned discussion without feeling the need to strut your supposed Pharisaical "Christian superiority".
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I'm just an average Joe who was born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abide forever..

You're the one who must strut your 'one true church' dogma.. and you're talking about superiority.. lol..
 
Eventide said:
I'm just an average Joe who was born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abide forever..

You're the one who must strut your 'one true church' dogma.. and you're talking about superiority.. lol..
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Although rome has never been any candlestick of Rev. 3 in the first place, (for she is more openly corrupt than all the rest of Rev. 17:1-5) that does not mean that Christ was wrong with His WORD of Matt. 18:17-18.
Or the Eph. 4:5 verse of [ONE FAITH]. (not that of having faith, but one faith Psalms 77:13) And go see whereChrist SENT Saul (Paul to be) in Acts 9:6 when Saul asked Christ what he [[MUST DO?]] And verses 17-18!
Ask yourself why Christ did not heal Saul Himself??? Because He had DOCUMENTED that He did INDEED HAVE A CHURCH ON EARTH.

And surely you know that there is nothing that satan does not counterfit of God?? rome is that satanic counterfiet. She surely is a satanic cesspool that is seen documented almost daily on the world new & in print!

But again, that cannot do away with the one TRUE Truth Virgin Truth of Christ's Eternal WORD!! See Isa. 5

Matt. 6:24 has Christ say it this way. You go read it? Just two [[UNITED GROUPS]] befor He comes back again, His group are clearly DOCUMENTED in Rev. 12:17 & Rev. 3:10 + ORGANIZED as Philadelphia!

--Elijah
 
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Eventide said:
I'm just an average Joe who was born again by the incorruptible word of God which lives and abide forever..

You're the one who must strut your 'one true church' dogma.. and you're talking about superiority.. lol..
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I fear this "conversation" is going nowhere, just more self-congratulatory banter. Not a single word of any evidence for why Philemon is part of the bible. Perhaps after you are done patting yourself on the back, maybe you'll sit down and think about my point. Just be careful of Matthew 7:21, "average Joe"...
 
Elijah674 said:
Although rome has never been any candlestick of Rev. 3 in the first place, (for she is more openly corrupt than all the rest of Rev. 17:1-5) that does not mean that Christ was wrong with His WORD of Matt. 18:17-18.
Or the Eph. 4:5 verse of [ONE FAITH]. (not that of having faith, but one faith Psalms 77:13) And go see whereChrist SENT Saul (Paul to be) in Acts 9:6 when Saul asked Christ what he [[MUST DO?]] And verses 17-18!
Ask yourself why Christ did not heal Saul Himself??? Because He had DOCUMENTED that He did INDEED HAVE A CHURCH ON EARTH.

And surely you know that there is nothing that satan does not counterfit of God?? rome is that satanic counterfiet. She surely is a satanic cesspool that is seen documented almost daily on the world new & in print!
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So where can I go to the Church established by Christ, as per Mat 18? Which Church did Matthew have in mind, the Assembly of God? The Eighth Baptist church of Peoria? The Anglican Church of King Henry the 8th? Maybe some Wiccans in Yellowstone National Park??? Or how about some guys sitting around doing a Bible study and eating chicken wings while condemning people they know little about?

Just as the Master was condemned, so will His servants be condemned... It is not unexpected, the Church has been warned.

Regards
 
I believe the Bible is a faithful witness to the events of its time. I believe it accurately quotes the words of God and Jesus.
 
And of course, the Bible NOWHERE says that it is the sole source of our faith or that everything we need to know is found within the Bible. That is a tradition of man.

You are so awesome, francis. This statement is so obviously true, but most Christians refuse to see it. The belief that the Bible is all of God's word is a self contradicting statement because in order to be true it would have to state it, which it does not.
 
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