The Boring Book of Jude....

[Georges]

The Book of Jude....ho hum.....yawn......

That was the old George.....

The new and improved George say's this about the Book of Jude....."what an interesting puzzle to solve".....

It seems like Jude is accusing someone of false teaching to the point there is a trial of some type...

What does the book say to you?

 

[Lewis]

Jude describes the sin and eventual end of godless people or those teaching false doctrines. He closes with the exhortation to persevere and seek the truth of God. And Georges, you sure know how to pick tasteless titles for your topics.
And then you call yourself the new and improved version of Georges. What are you trying to do, keep people upset on this board ? I told you before this is a Christian board. So stop slapping us in the face.

 

[Georges]

Jude describes the sin and eventual end of godless people or those teaching false doctrines.

Yep...

He closes with the exhortation to persevere and seek the truth of God.

Yep...

And Georges, you sure know how to pick tasteless titles for your topics.

Got you to post...didn't it?

And then you call yourself the new and improved version of Georges.

Yep....more descerning....IMHO...

What are you trying to do, keep people upset on this board ?

Nope...trying to make them think....

I told you before this is a Christian board. So stop slapping us in the face.

I am as much a "CHRISTIAN" as anyone on this board....so turn the other cheek...and lets debate....

Did I not say that "once" upon a time the book of Jude was boring to me...Ever have a book of the bible that was boring to you? How about the Song of Solomon....that one is a real exciting book...

Did I not say that Jude was a very interesting book...especially when you look between the lines...

 

[Georges]

Jud 1:1 ¶ Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,
¶ to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
Jud 1:2 Mercy unto you, and peace, and love, be multiplied.


Jud 1:3 ¶ Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Something was happening to Christianity during Jude's Bishopric in Jerusalem that he felt it "urgent" to write this letter...exorting the believers to contend for the faith "once" delivered.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Was there any "teacher" who was considered once a member of the group but eventually broke away? Was there ever a teacher who, in the beginning, appeared (to the elders of Jerusalem) to be in the fold, but after a period of time obviously split from the group? Was there any teacher who promoted a justification by faith as a carte blanc (per se, veiled) opening the door for lasciviousness?

Jud 1:5 ¶ I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

A stern warning.....Torah observance....the apostles in Jerusalem still obeyed Torah...Jude is warning that a false teacher had snuck in and somehow taught that lasciviousness not condemned....What is lasciviousness? Torah disreguard...What is Jude's warning? Get back to believing Messiah and obeying Torah..

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Again...another warning to get back to Torah obedience..Christianty (Nazarene Judaism) at one time were comprised of Torah observent believers in Messiah, Jude warning those who accepted a false teacher's preaching of Torah negation. James is warning those that have listened to this teacher, that they will suffer the same fate as the fallen angels...

Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Again...the same warning....

Jud 1:8 Likewise also these [filthy] dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Were there any teachers who spoke evil of dignitaries....for instance, was there any particular person who slighted say....James, Peter and John?

Jud 1:9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jude is saying that it is not for him to confront this person...Notice Jude will not accuse the false teacher openly..citing the case with Michael. Is there any individual who openly condemned (accused) another (say Peter) openly, in front of a crowd?

Jud 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

Jud 1:11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

The error of Balaam...he who caused some of the Israelites to eat meat sacrificed to idol..and to commit fornication...Jesus mentions this in Revelation. Is there a teacher in the NT who taught that meat sacrificed to idols is nothing?

Jud 1:12 ¶ These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds [they are] without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

Is there a teacher who taught negation of the Torah, which would include the negation of the food laws...these who fed without fear...means that they didn't fear God's commandment concerning food purity...was there a teacher who confronted an Apostle who was Torah obedient concerning Jewish/Gentile eating practices?

Jud 1:13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Looks like it's not so good for the false teacher....

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.


Jud 1:16 ¶ These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Who is the only teacher in the NT who had boasted of himself?

Jud 1:17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Jud 1:18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Torah negation and a "one time" justification of faith...makes it easy to do this....

Jud 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Is there a teacher in the NT who is not part of the group, or had split from the group? Is there for instance 12 teachers who are to teach one group and 1 to teach the rest of the world?

Jud 1:20 ¶ But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


Jud 1:24 ¶ Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
Jud 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

It's kind of funny (strange, coincidental) that the books of Peter, John, Jude, and Revelation are the last books of the NT and seem to be focused on correcting some apparent false teachings (teachers) that have crept into the faith...

 

[Georges]

Throwing this back into the mix....

The Balaamic theme in Jude and Revelation......something to it....

 

[AVBunyan]

Georges, this is off topic but I was wondering...you come across a lost sinner on the street and he asks you the following..."Sir, what must I do to be saved...what must I do to escape the judgemnt?

What would be your answer?

Thanks

 

[BenJasher]

Sir, what must I do to be saved...what must I do to escape the judgemnt?

The proper, scriptural response is:

"Brother, you are already saved. The Blood of Jesus has washed your sins away. The judgement you seek to escape has already passed. It was unleashed full force upon the Saviour when He was crucified. He paid the price so you wouldn't have to."

As in Adam all died, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. Believest thou this?

Now, let's get back on topic.

 

[BenJasher]

Actually, Georges, I can't help but think that Jude was addressing a problem that can be referenced in more than just Peter, Jude and Revelation. You can find references to it in 1Corinthians, and Hebrews, and even in the Gospels.

Many of the Early Church Fathers were very diligent to protect their flock from the influence of those who had not the Spirit of Christ. Many of us today would not appreciate being spoken to the way Jude and some of the other Fathers would speak to someone if they thought we were a threat to their flock.

 

[Georges]

Georges, this is off topic but I was wondering...you come across a lost sinner on the street and he asks you the following..."Sir, what must I do to be saved...what must I do to escape the judgemnt?

What would be your answer?

Love God....Love your neighbor as yourself....

If asked How do I love God? I would answer, by doing his commandments..

Same words Jesus used...in effect....

Thanks

 

[Georges]

Actually, Georges, I can't help but think that Jude was addressing a problem that can be referenced in more than just Peter, Jude and Revelation. You can find references to it in 1Corinthians, and Hebrews, and even in the Gospels.

Many of the Early Church Fathers were very diligent to protect their flock from the influence of those who had not the Spirit of Christ. Many of us today would not appreciate being spoken to the way Jude and some of the other Fathers would speak to someone if they thought we were a threat to their flock.

Actually, James, Peter, John, and Jude's epistles are written against Paul...That's why many folks don't like James, Jude and John....they teach works more than faith...or showing faith by the works they do...even Peter suggests this...

 

[mutzrein]

Actually, Georges, I can't help but think that Jude was addressing a problem that can be referenced in more than just Peter, Jude and Revelation. You can find references to it in 1Corinthians, and Hebrews, and even in the Gospels.

Many of the Early Church Fathers were very diligent to protect their flock from the influence of those who had not the Spirit of Christ. Many of us today would not appreciate being spoken to the way Jude and some of the other Fathers would speak to someone if they thought we were a threat to their flock.

Actually, James, Peter, John, and Jude's epistles are written against Paul...That's why many folks don't like James, Jude and John....they teach works more than faith...or showing faith by the works they do...even Peter suggests this...

Actually, if you get the premise right, there is no inconsistency.

 

[BenJasher]

I perceive no inconsistency. I see no grounds for making the claim that there are any inconsistencies.

Jude was not against Paul, neither was Peter or John, and neither did any of the two parties make statements contradictory to the other. Not only that, but the whole line of thought that any such thing existed is a fabrication of unbelievers in a meager attempt to discredit the validity of the scriptures.

What is funny (for want of better terminology) to me is that the people who make these claims are the very people I referenced in my previous post. They would wilt like a cut flower under the harsh tongue of the Early Fathers if they tried to bring garbage like this into their flock. Smug in the learning that they have sought to accumulate, they have become misguided and deluded, forgetting that knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth. God will resist the proud and give grace to the humble. There is a way that seemeth right unto a man... the ends thereof are the ways of death. Yet, love works no ill to its neighbor, and therefore fulfills the Law. Knowledge puffeth up. Love edifieth.

I pray for your soul Georges.

 

[Georges]

I perceive no inconsistency. I see no grounds for making the claim that there are any inconsistencies.

Jude was not against Paul, neither was Peter or John, and neither did any of the two parties make statements contradictory to the other. Not only that, but the whole line of thought that any such thing existed is a fabrication of unbelievers in a meager attempt to discredit the validity of the scriptures.

Uh huh....I pointed out if you looked...the whole book of Jude and commented on the verses in between....James' book is refuting Paul's Faith only doctrine...and Jude is refuting Paul as a false teacher. as I've pointed out...John in his epistles is pointing out Paul as have the spirit of antichrist and Jesus in Revelation is refuting the teachings of Paul who appears to be the NT Balaam...

What is funny (for want of better terminology) to me is that the people who make these claims are the very people I referenced in my previous post.
They would wilt like a cut flower under the harsh tongue of the Early Fathers if they tried to bring garbage like this into their flock.

Sorry, but I haven't been proved conclusively wrong yet...Maybe you should look at Tertullian's writting...he isn't the biggest Paul fan...In his writting against Marcion, he chastises Marcion for being Paul only...

Smug in the learning that they have sought to accumulate, they have become misguided and deluded, forgetting that knowledge puffeth up, but love edifieth.

Great sounding words....they don't mean anything though....

God will resist the proud and give grace to the humble.

Blah blah blah....

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man... the ends thereof are the ways of death. Yet, love works no ill to its neighbor, and therefore fulfills the Law. Knowledge puffeth up. Love edifieth.

Keep Paul to yourself....please don't quote him to me...

I pray for your soul Georges.

Pray for your own....

 

[BenJasher]

Uh huh....I pointed out if you looked...the whole book of Jude and commented on the verses in between....James' book is refuting Paul's Faith only doctrine (Steer manure! Anyone who says that has never really read the book)...and Jude is refuting Paul as a false teacher. (Need I reiterate myself?) as I've pointed out...John in his epistles is pointing out Paul as have the spirit of antichrist and Jesus in Revelation is refuting the teachings of Paul who appears to be the NT Balaam...(Boy! I would just love for you to give me chapter and verse on that one. If anyone has the spirit of Balaam, it is you, and people like you. You need to be better informed on the subject of which you so valiantly put forth.)

See you in the funny pages. What else you got? Jesus wasn't a Jew? Lemme guess..., He was really Greek, right? The Son of Zeus? Where do you guys come from? And where do you get this stuff? I bet you eat a lot of Cracker Jacks.

I can't close this statement til I respond to this foolishness:

Sorry, but I haven't been proved conclusively wrong yet...Maybe you should look at Tertullian's writting...he isn't the biggest Paul fan...In his writting against Marcion, he chastises Marcion for being Paul only...

I wouldn't put too much vaue in Tertullian's writings. He was one of the most celebrated of the earlier advocates of endless punishment. He was heathen born, and led a corrupt life in his youth. Tertullian, by his own testimony confesses to having been the vilest sort in his younger days. The fact that he would be an antagonist of the writings of Paul shows his heathen ignorance of the Greek scriptures. He had to have the scriptures translated to Latin to be able to read them. Before the likes of heathen, anti-christ scum like Tertullian, Augustine and Minucius Felix, the Elders of the Church were Greeks who read, wrote and spoke Greek as their primary language. They all disagree with you.

Tertullian is nothing more than a festering sore on a buttock of the Body of Christ. I would be very, very cautious using him as an authority on any subject. I would use him as an authority only if I wanted to stir up confusion and division amongst the brethren. He is one of the people responsible for throwing the world into the Dark Ages. If it were not for people like him, there would be no Great Whore riding the backs of the nations of the earth, setting herself up as God's representative on earth, calling herself the Catholic (Universal) Church.

And I beg your pardon, but you have been conclusively proven wrong in this thread. Are you so thick that you don't get it? I bet you're German, aren't you? Or maybe you're from Indiana where the women are strong and the men are good looking, and neither are very bright.

 

[Georges]

Uh huh....I pointed out if you looked...the whole book of Jude and commented on the verses in between....James' book is refuting Paul's Faith only doctrine (Steer manure! Anyone who says that has never really read the book)...and Jude is refuting Paul as a false teacher. (Need I reiterate myself?) as I've pointed out...John in his epistles is pointing out Paul as have the spirit of antichrist and Jesus in Revelation is refuting the teachings of Paul who appears to be the NT Balaam...(Boy! I would just love for you to give me chapter and verse on that one. If anyone has the spirit of Balaam, it is you, and people like you. You need to be better informed on the subject of which you so valiantly put forth.)

Perhaps you can tell us what the spirit of Balaam is? Hint.....Jesus tells you what it is in Rev.....if you need me to cut and paste the verse I will....

See you in the funny pages. What else you got? Jesus wasn't a Jew? Lemme guess..., He was really Greek, right? The Son of Zeus? Where do you guys come from? And where do you get this stuff? I bet you eat a lot of Cracker Jacks.

Great comeback.....full of verse refutation and all....great debate tactic...

I can't close this statement til I respond to this foolishness:

Sorry, but I haven't been proved conclusively wrong yet...Maybe you should look at Tertullian's writting...he isn't the biggest Paul fan...In his writting against Marcion, he chastises Marcion for being Paul only...

I wouldn't put too much vaue in Tertullian's writings.

Believe me, I don't....I'm not a trinitarian....I just use him because he does give the flavor of the time in regard to Marcion.

He was one of the most celebrated of the earlier advocates of endless punishment. He was heathen born, and led a corrupt life in his youth. Tertullian, by his own testimony confesses to having been the vilest sort in his younger days.

Got news for you ....many of the Church fathers were heathen born and schooled in Hellenist Philosophy...

The fact that he would be an antagonist of the writings of Paul shows his heathen ignorance of the Greek scriptures.

Yeh right.....the man is regarded as one of the more brilliant minds in early Christianity....

He had to have the scriptures translated to Latin to be able to read them. Before the likes of heathen, anti-christ scum like Tertullian, Augustine and Minucius Felix, the Elders of the Church were Greeks who read, wrote and spoke Greek as their primary language. They all disagree with you.

Of course they disagree with me....Hellenist philosophy......Hello.....

Tertullian is nothing more than a festering sore on a buttock of the Body of Christ.

I'm not a Mr. T fan, and was quite surprised when I found out that he regarded Paul as being below the other Apostles in authority....If that is the case, of course he would be a sore on the bottom of Paul's neoplatonic/gnostic/mystery christ....

I would be very, very cautious using him as an authority on any subject. I would use him as an authority only if I wanted to stir up confusion and division amongst the brethren.

Just pointing out how at least 1 man regarded as a Christian forefather wasn't a devout Paulinist as Marcion was....Tell me Ben, do you support Marcion?

He is one of the people responsible for throwing the world into the Dark Ages. If it were not for people like him, there would be no Great Whore riding the backs of the nations of the earth, setting herself up as God's representative on earth, calling herself the Catholic (Universal) Church.

I might have to agree with you on that....actually the Great Whore is any Christian not resembling Nazarene Judaism....which is.....most of it today.

And I beg your pardon, but you have been conclusively proven wrong in this thread.

Not by you.....hardly.... :-D I guess I don't really know what your definition of "proven wrong" is....you haven't refuted biblically, anything I suggested.

Are you so thick that you don't get it? I bet you're German, aren't you? Or maybe you're from Indiana where the women are strong and the men are good looking, and neither are very bright.

Yeh....you haven't proven anybody wrong....and, I know enough to where I don't have to insult those who don't...I am from Michigan, and yes, from a family of good looking people...and I am one of the few who chose not to pursue a career in continuing education (many of family are educators, and trinitarian paulinists)...and that's as far as I'll go as far as boasting is concerned...

Ben...say the word and I'll send you the pdf that I've sent to many in this forum that will back up my claim in the above thread...the pdf breaks down in detail James, John (epistles), Jude, and Revelation....read it and tell me it's horse hocky after that....I don't think you will/can.....if you had any brains anyway...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt anyway....PM me with your email address and I get it to you asap....

 

[BenJasher]

Yeh....you haven't proven anybody wrong....and, I know enough to where I don't have to insult those who don't...I am from Michigan, and yes, from a family of good looking people...and I am one of the few who chose not to pursue a career in continuing education (many of family are educators, and trinitarian paulinists)...and that's as far as I'll go as far as boasting is concerned...

If you took insult at what I had to say about people from Indiana, I apologize. I borrowed a line from the movie "Raising Arizona" and used it for my own purpose. I would have thought anyone would see that and the obtuse angled humor in that statement. But then again, I did post it on this forum. : My bad.

Let's clarify something else here. I never made the claim that I personally had proven you wrong. For the most part I have been a lurker on this thread. Let's not get confused on the specific details.

Marcion. When he spoke about the God of the OT not being the True God, he may have actually had something in the very beginning of that thought. But it quickly degenerated into an heresy. He had a strong Gnostic flavor to everything he said anyway. The short answer to your question about Marcion is No.

Nazarene Judaism? Isn't that like saying a person was observing the Law by grace. How about a living dead person, maybe? Why not call yourself a white Black man. Judaism and Christianity do not mix. Law and Grace do not mix, neither does oil and water. There were those in the days of Paul who advocated such an abominable mixture. They would follow him from town to town and insist on circumcision and adherence to the Law amongst his converts. They were known as Judaisers. Paul wanted them to go and mutilate themselves. They pushed so hard on circumcision, but he didn't want them to stop with a little bit of fore-skin. Take the whole thing off, baby! He wanted them to leave neither stump nor root, if you get my meaning.

The two don't mix. And anyone who tells me that they are a Messianic, or Nazarene Jew is just telling me that they still haven't found the truth they are seeking. And if you are following a Gnostic heresy that has been put down from the very beginning, you are looking in the wrong place to find that truth which you seek.

And by all means, please send me the pdf you think will prove your point. I will drop my email addy in your inbox shortly.

 

[Georges]

Yeh....you haven't proven anybody wrong....and, I know enough to where I don't have to insult those who don't...I am from Michigan, and yes, from a family of good looking people...and I am one of the few who chose not to pursue a career in continuing education (many of family are educators, and trinitarian paulinists)...and that's as far as I'll go as far as boasting is concerned...

If you took insult at what I had to say about people from Indiana, I apologize. I borrowed a line from the movie "Raising Arizona" and used it for my own purpose.

Actually I thought it was funny....I think maybe our forum friends form Indiana may have been insulted...but I've got pretty thick skin...got to with the unorthodox opinions I have...

I would have thought anyone would see that and the obtuse angled humor in that statement. But then again, I did post it on this forum. : My bad.

Put a smily face after the comment and it's OK with me...I give jibes (99% of the time in fun) and expect to recieve them (hopefully given in the same spirit). Since they have the different faces available, use them, it does help in the interpretation...An example was my poke (in fun) at J the B on the other post...and my comment on his "typing in tongues" cause I never understand a sentance he puts together... :D

Let's clarify something else here. I never made the claim that I personally had proven you wrong. For the most part I have been a lurker on this thread. Let's not get confused on the specific details.

Sorry, but that's the way your words came across to me....You said I was proven wrong...I said that I wasn't...

Marcion. When he spoke about the God of the OT not being the True God, he may have actually had something in the very beginning of that thought. But it quickly degenerated into an heresy. He had a strong Gnostic flavor to everything he said anyway. The short answer to your question about Marcion is No.

And I didn't think you did....I just wanted to make the point as you are aware, Marcion was a Gnostic....but he was a Paul only guy as well.....there is a reason that he was a Paul only guy....most likely because he recognized Paul's gnostic "mystery" language....and identified with it.

Nazarene Judaism? Isn't that like saying a person was observing the Law by grace. How about a living dead person, maybe? Why not call yourself a white Black man. Judaism and Christianity do not mix.

Ben.....James, John, Peter, were all Nazarene Jews who continued to observe Mosaic Law....The Church in Jerusalem were all Nazarene Jews upon their belief in Christ...Pharasee Jews upon belief in Jesus as Messiah were all considered Nazarene Jews at the point...They followed Torah, even sacrifices after the resurrection they followed Jesus' perfect example of living righteously under the Torah.

Law and Grace do not mix, neither does oil and water.

Law and Grace absolutely mix...except in Paulinism...However, the way it actually works like this: If you continually strive to obey the Law by living righteously, by God's grace you will be raised from the dead to enter the Messianic Kingdom, all Jews believed that....well the Pharisee's did anyway, the Sadducee's did not. You can quote me on that one....

There were those in the days of Paul who advocated such an abominable mixture. They would follow him from town to town and insist on circumcision and adherence to the Law amongst his converts.

Of course they did....James sent them to check on just what Paul was preaching...reports came back from Asia that Paul was teaching contrary to what they were teaching in Jerusalem...Peter was rightfully reminded of this in Antioch...

They were known as Judaisers. Paul wanted them to go and mutilate themselves. They pushed so hard on circumcision, but he didn't want them to stop with a little bit of fore-skin. Take the whole thing off, baby! He wanted them to leave neither stump nor root, if you get my meaning.

Yeh I do....and Paul was teaching contrary to what he was supposed to be teaching...

The two don't mix. And anyone who tells me that they are a Messianic, or Nazarene Jew is just telling me that they still haven't found the truth they are seeking. And if you are following a Basilidian heresy that has been put down from the very beginning, you are looking in the wrong place to find that truth you seek.

I think I've found it....and it's Jesus' words only, not Paul's.

And by all means, please send me the pdf you think will prove your point. I will drop my email addy in your inbox shortly.

It will be in the am....as it is at the office computer....I think you will enjoy...and may I say thanks for accepting the offer...there are still a few who will not at least check it out...

I will send it in the am....please opine on it as you read it...I'm interested in cheers, jeers or any opinion...I just ask that you read it as a judge would....without bias until all the facts are presented..

You will see why I state some of the things I do...