[_ Old Earth _] The complexity of water patterns.

[John]

Three millenia ago, king solomn described the complex circular global wind patterns that determine the weather throughout the earth.

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirlth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits Ecclesiastes 1:6

How could solomon have known that the planetary winds followed a circular pattern from south to north and south again?
The book of Job (my favorite for confusing the unbelievers) speaks of God controlling the weather:

For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seen under the whole heaven ; to make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. When he made a decree for the rain and a way for the lightning of the thunder Job 28:24-26

Meteorologists have found that the relative weights of the wind and water greatly determine weather patterns. How could Job have known that the air and the wind patterns are governed by their actual weight ?

 

[jwu]

The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirlth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits Ecclesiastes 1:6

That's trivial. People tend to notice that wind blows in different directions. This is the logical conclusion from that.

Perhaps it would help if you not only post verses, but also the rough date at which the human civilization confirmed the respective verse?

For he looketh to the ends of the earth, and seen under the whole heaven ; to make the weight for the winds; and he weigheth the waters by measure. When he made a decree for the rain and a way for the lightning of the thunder Job 28:24-26

Meteorologists have found that the relative weights of the wind and water greatly determine weather patterns. How could Job have known that the air and the wind patterns are governed by their actual weight ?

Making the "weight for the winds" refers to the strength of the wind, not the actual weight of air.

Besides, this verse gets thunder and lightning mixed up. The thunder is a consequence of the lightning, while the verse implies that it's vice versa, that the lightning belongs to the thunder.

 

[John]

Besides hiding behind the shield of "misinterpretation" explain this if you can't just say so, there is no shame or loss.

 

[John]

Bugger jwu now i have to write about thunder and lightning.

 

[John]

That's trivial. People tend to notice that wind blows in different directions. This is the logical conclusion from that.

yes wind goes every which way, your point?
the verse says "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirlth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. that is a bit more complex then feeling the wind on your face and drawing conclusions.

Perhaps it would help if you not only post verses, but also the rough date at which the human civilization confirmed the respective verse?

Working on it :

Making the "weight for the winds" refers to the strength of the wind, not the actual weight of air.

high low pressures ? air under pressure has a certain weight about it.

Besides, this verse gets thunder and lightning mixed up. The thunder is a consequence of the lightning, while the verse implies that it's vice versa, that the lightning belongs to the thunder.

I will clarify in another thread.

 

[jwu]

That's trivial. People tend to notice that wind blows in different directions. This is the logical conclusion from that.

yes wind goes every which way, your point?
the verse says "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirlth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits. that is a bit more complex then feeling the wind on your face and drawing conclusions.

It's still ambiguous enough to apply it to just about any weather pattern.

It doesn't take satellites in space to deduce from changing directions of wind that there is some sort of circulation.

[quote:bbb03]
Making the "weight for the winds" refers to the strength of the wind, not the actual weight of air.

high low pressures ? air under pressure has a certain weight about it.
[/quote:bbb03]
"Weight of the wind" is a common metaphor for the strength. Note that you'd be equivocating "wind" with "air". Weight of the wind is something else than weight of the air.

 

[John]

But this wind effect is global in nature, how did one man see this and copy it down to the point of being 100% scientifically correct, that seems rather..impossible.

I am going to make many , many threads of science in the bible. stay tuned

 

[jwu]

But this wind effect is global in nature, how did one man see this and copy it down to the point of being 100% scientifically correct, that seems rather..impossible.

Why? What other conclusions could one draw as an explanation of different directions of wind?

100% scientifically correct sounds a bit...well...over the top for such a trivial and ambiguously stated observation.

Let's take a different approach, let's take a look at the falsifiability of this statement. How would the weather patterns have to be so that you would consider this verse to be wrong? Please outline it with a few sentences.

 

[John]

Why? What other conclusions could one draw as an explanation of different directions of wind?

the fact that the writer hit the head of the nail with his words is quite remarkable in his day

100% scientifically correct sounds a bit...well...over the top for such a trivial and ambiguously stated observation.

if i stood outside and had 0% knowledge of the wind, the chances of me saying "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirlth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits" and being correct are slim to none.

Let's take a different approach, let's take a look at the falsifiability of this statement. How would the weather patterns have to be so that you would consider this verse to be wrong? Please outline it with a few sentences.

falsify 1+1= 2
his observations were true.

 

[jwu]

if i stood outside and had 0% knowledge of the wind, the chances of me saying "The wind goeth toward the south, and turneth about unto the north; it whirlth about continually, and the wind returneth again according to his circuits" and being correct are slim to none.

What else would you conclude?

[quote:6aebb]
Let's take a different approach, let's take a look at the falsifiability of this statement. How would the weather patterns have to be so that you would consider this verse to be wrong? Please outline it with a few sentences.

falsify 1+1= 2
his observations were true.[/quote:6aebb]
[/quote]It is a correct statement of course, but if you want to invoke it as evidence for divine revelation, then there mustn't be any way how normal people could have figured it out.

And of course it must be as specific as possible; it is important that there was a serious chance to miss if it is supposed to be something special.
When i say, "the sky of other planets has a color", then that statement is true no matter what that color actually is. Hence i cannot use it as evidence that i had some sort of mysterious foreknowledge about the color of the sky as seen from other planets.
It's the same with the weather pattern thing. It must be specific enough to potentially miss in order to shine with its supposed accuracy after its predictions have been verified.
Hence i am asking for what the weather patterns would have to be like for this statement to miss the mark. If any conceivable weather pattern is applicable to it, then it is as useless as a prediction as mine about the colors of the skies of other planets - because it's tautological then, it's always true no matter what.

A prediction is the more astounding the smaller the chance was to get it right by mere coincidence before it could be confirmed or disproved.

 

[Patashu]

What I'm thinking is that if I feel the wind blowing past me, I'd deduce that it must be going somewhere, and to go there it must push air that's already there out of its way, ie that there'd be a constant circulation. The statement as made in the bible isn't that outlandish without divine intervention.