Bible Study The Controlled Fall

[netchaplain]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:14); "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Cor 11:3). The evidence of her sin nature was that she saw, "a tree to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6); and we must realize this was before the temptation.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world." She was familiar with the fact that "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" (Gen 2:9), but this scenario did not apply to a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12). This sounds like blame but I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

The crux of this concept is to portray that God in His omniscience "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11); "according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Tim 1:9). Simply put, what transpired was the way He desired it to go, or He would have done it another way.

 

[iLOVE]

Ephesians 6:12 New International Version (NIV)

12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

 

[netchaplain]

It's true that until they were tested (for their learning, not God's), disobedience was not in their mind, but it's tendency was shown to be in their heart and I think God placing the tree there was His first lesson to begin revealing to man His will and desires. I believe God's plan was for man to "become as One of Us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22)", which is related to Their desire to "make man in Our image, after Our likeness" (Gen 1:26).

There's no other reasonable conception for Him placing it in the Garden, and in the middle, along with the tree of life (Gen 2:9; 3:3). I believe this is where He chose to start teaching us because He had to start somewhere. There's a good reason why God allowed the temptation, it wasn't a casual or unforeseen occurrence because all occurrences are foreknown and pre-planned according to His purpose.

Though no act of disobedience was present prior to the temptation, this does not confirm the absence of its tendency in them. The Enemies beguilement did not implant the desires Eve had within her (Gen 3:6), His temptation was an arousal to what was already there, prior to the act of disobedience, for it shows these desires in her after the temptation but prior to the disobedient act.

Either Eve possessed the tendency prior to the act or the Enemy implanted it in her heart and mind. I do not think the Lord would allow the devil to implant evil in them or he could have his way with them.

It's true that until they were tested (for their learning, not God's), disobedience was not in their mind, but it's tendency was shown to be in their heart and I think God placing the tree there was His first lesson to begin revealing to man His will and desires. I believe God's plan was for man to "become as One of Us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22)", which is related to Their desire to "make man in Our image, after Our likeness" (Gen 1:26).

There's no other reasonable conception for Him placing it in the Garden, and in the middle, along with the tree of life (Gen 2:9; 3:3). I believe this is where He chose to start teaching us because He had to start somewhere. There's a good reason why God allowed the temptation, it wasn't a casual or unforeseen occurrence because all occurrences are foreknown and pre-planned according to His purpose.

Though no act of disobedience was present prior to the temptation, this does not confirm the absence of its tendency in them. The Enemies beguilement did not implant the desires Eve had within her (Gen 3:6), His temptation was an arousal to what was already there, prior to the act of disobedience, for it shows these desires in her after the temptation but prior to the disobedient act.

Either Eve possessed the tendency prior to the act or the Enemy implanted it in her heart and mind. I do not think the Lord would allow the devil to implant evil in them or he could have his way with them.

I believe Satan can only test our desires (for our learning), not force his desires for our defilement. I believe if God did not intend man to sin, He would have not allowed the sin nature (old man) to become part of us and the tree would have not been of a necessity in His plans, nor the devil, whom God planned prior to creation in using.

I believe it is noteworthy to point out that any concept which does not relate to receiving salvation or that does not necessarily promote growth within it (such as my post in this thread) should not be considered essential to the believer.

 

[netchaplain]

This was a duplicate post.

 

[iLOVE]

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity (animosity) between thee and the woman (The Lord was now was actually speaking to Satan, who had used the serpent; in effect, the Lord is saying to Satin, "You used woman to bring down the human race, and I will use the woman as an instrument to bring the Redeermer into the world, Who will save the human race"), and between thy seed (mankind which follows Satan) and her Seed (the Lord Jesus Christ); it (Christ) shall bruise thy head (the Victory that Jesus won at the Cross [Col. 2:14-15]), and thou shalt bruise his heel (the sufferings of the Cross).

This was the first Prophesy of the Bible! Lord Jesus would not have a human father. Lord Jesus would only have a human mother. This is about the Virgins Birth.

 

[netchaplain]

Genesis 3:15 "You used woman to bring down the human race, and I will use the woman as an instrument to bring the Redeermer into the world, Who will save the human race")

This was the first Prophesy of the Bible! Lord Jesus would not have a human father. Lord Jesus would only have a human mother. This is about the Virgins Birth.

Pretty good insight!

 

[CORE]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act.

Wouldn't this suggest then that Christ also had a sin nature?

Also...God declared all creation prior to man as "good," but after the creation of man, he declared it "very good." How could God declare a creation with a sinful nature as being very good given Habakkuk 1:13?

So, in attempting to reconcile this I have to ask the question, "what is a sin nature?"

I don't know if there is even a biblical definition, but I suppose one could say that it is having a predisposition toward sin without any external influence. That is to say that I have the ability in myself to conceive lust and deceive myself to sin. I don't need anyone to lie to me, I don't need anyone to tempt me. I do it to myself.

Now if we can agree on that definition, the next question is, "Did man initially have the ability to conceive lust and deceive themselves without any external influence whatsoever?"

There doesn't seem to be any implication in scripture that Adam and Eve had the ability to devise deception (lies) like Satan in and of themselves. If they did, than I doubt Satan's "services" would've been needed for the fall.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world."

But was lust inherent in Eve? I highly doubt it. Eve was a perfectly functioning human being in every respect, but when Satan lied to her, I believe at that moment her thought process had been corrupted. She was now operating on a false premise rather than the truth and this is what seems to have lead her to lust after wisdom as you describe, and eat of the fruit...Kinda gives me a deeper understanding on why God hates lies so much and a broadened perspective on Matthew 18:6
"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

Let's consider James 1:14-15
"But each one is tempted when he is carried away and enticed by his own lust. Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."

This seems to happen naturally with us. Nobody has to tempt me, nobody has to trick me to sin - my own sinful nature does that for me...but not so with Eve. Satan had to inject himself into the equation and manipulate the truth before she would ever sin because she was initially incapable of deceiving herself, unlike us.

Other than that I tend to agree with the basic premise of your post...

 

[netchaplain]

Wouldn't this suggest then that Christ also had a sin nature?

Hi Core and God's blessings to your Family! Adam had a different nature than Christ, whose was divine (2 Pet 1:4) and man's sinful (Rom 7). "The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second Man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly" (1 Cor 15:47, 48).

 

[CORE]

Thanks Netchaplin, blessings...

Overall an interesting topic...thanks for the reply.

 

[reba]

Net there are always those who discourage.. Your postings are selfless and a blessing... The Bible Study forum is not open for debate..

 

[Davies]

There's no other reasonable conception for Him placing it in the Garden, and in the middle, along with the tree of life (Gen 2:9; 3:3). I believe this is where He chose to start teaching us because He had to start somewhere. There's a good reason why God allowed the temptation, it wasn't a casual or unforeseen occurrence because all occurrences are foreknown and pre-planned according to His purpose.

Hello netchaplain,

I've read where you are concerned that this thread could provide an occasion to not be uplifting, but I think one of the reasons why CF.net is a good place is because we are allowed to say what we think, and if we are genuinely seeking the truth, we should allow ourselves to be corrected, or a person should be allowed to walk away with what they want to hear if all attempts to persuade otherwise fails. I probably should have posted this in your other thread.

My thoughts on what you've said here: When you say there is no other reasonable conception of God placing of the tree to reveal to man what his will and desire are, I generally agree with that. I would like to suggest another possibility which likely doesn't exclude what you've shared. How about God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil knowing they would sin. I think we would all agree that Adam and Eve were made without sin in them. God knew they would sin, so we have the plan of redemption planned before the foundation of the world. Why else would God allow man to fall? I think it was because God desired to show His goodness and grace which glorifies Him the most. God is the best of anything and thus He should be promoted above all things. God will one day point to netchaplain and say, 'Do you want to see how great I am? Look, I saved that wretched, rebellious sinner, netchaplain, and forgave him, gave him the gift of My righteousness, adopted him as My son, and gave him a share in the inheritance of My Son, Jesus.' That's why I think God put the tree in the midst of the Garden. It was the beginning of the means that God would use to reveal Himself.

- Davies

 

[netchaplain]

I've read where you are concerned that this thread could provide an occasion to not be uplifting, but I think one of the reasons why CF.net is a good place is because we are allowed to say what we think, and if we are genuinely seeking the truth, we should allow ourselves to be corrected, or a person should be allowed to walk away with what they want to hear if all attempts to persuade otherwise fails. I probably should have posted this in your other thread.

My thoughts on what you've said here: When you say there is no other reasonable conception of God placing of the tree to reveal to man what his will and desire are, I generally agree with that. I would like to suggest another possibility which likely doesn't exclude what you've shared. How about God placed the tree of knowledge of good and evil knowing they would sin. I think we would all agree that Adam and Eve were made without sin in them. God knew they would sin, so we have the plan of redemption planned before the foundation of the world. Why else would God allow man to fall? I think it was because God desired to show His goodness and grace which glorifies Him the most. God is the best of anything and thus He should be promoted above all things. God will one day point to netchaplain and say, 'Do you want to see how great I am? Look, I saved that wretched, rebellious sinner, netchaplain, and forgave him, gave him the gift of My righteousness, adopted him as My son, and gave him a share in the inheritance of My Son, Jesus.' That's why I think God put the tree in the midst of the Garden. It was the beginning of the means that God would use to reveal Himself.

Hi Davies and God's blessings to your Family! Thanks for your input and encouragement and I agree with the majority of your reply.

 

[netchaplain]

Net there are always those who discourage.. Your postings are selfless and a blessing... The Bible Study forum is not open for debate..

Thanks Sis for your encouragement and if I may humbly ask, what is meant that "the Bible study forum is not open for debate?

Your Brother Bob

 

[reba]

NC way to often forums are a battlefield. Battles over you MUST/ SHOULD be baptized etc.. All the things that have given us the denominations over the generations... Our forums /threads are full of them....When the Bible Study Forum was set up the idea was a forum of peaceful discussion. A forum where we can drop our egos and pick up the Word....

Stop in here it will explain ...

http://www.christianforums.net/forumdisplay.php?f=17

 

[By Grace]

I do not believe Satan transferred sin to Eve that wasn't already resident within her and Adam. Their disobedience was evidence of possessing a sin nature prior to the act. I believe the Enemy did not inject something but rather revealed something preexisting.

Eve's disobedience was due to deception, for "Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression" (1 Tim 2:14); "the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty" (2 Cor 11:3). The evidence of her sin nature was that she saw, "a tree to be desired to make one wise" (Gen 3:6); and we must realize this was before the temptation.

These three causes of Eve in Genesis 3:6 have been paralleled with 1 John 2:16; "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh (good for food), and the lust of the eyes (pleasant to the eyes), and the pride of life (desired to make one wise), is not of the Father, but is of the world." She was familiar with the fact that "out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food" (Gen 2:9), but this scenario did not apply to a tree to be desired to make one wise.

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12). This sounds like blame but I think Adam was just stating a truth, not blaming Eve because my conjecture is that out of compassion for Eve, he was willing to die with her.

The crux of this concept is to portray that God in His omniscience "worketh all things after the counsel of His own will" (Eph 1:11); "according to His own purpose and grace" (2 Tim 1:9). Simply put, what transpired was the way He desired it to go, or He would have done it another way.

Are you perhaps saying that the Fall was incomplete in any respect?

According to my understanding that if mankind merely "partially fell" in Eden, then we would merely need a "partial savior" because we would somehow retained a portion of the innocence that Adam had in Eden. If there is any mitigation of the extent of the fall, it would make the doctrine of total depravity false, and Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned" a lie.

You posted this:

Adam's disobedience was due to putting God's word second to his wife, for he "hearkened unto the voice of thy wife" (Gen 3:17). Scripture is not clear concerning Adam's reason for the disobedience, other than "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat" (Gen 3:12).

but you are not taking into account that God gave the instructions directly to Adam, and it is supposed that as he exercised his headship over Eve, he also taught that to her. So to "blame the woman" (typical male response :p) is to ignore the fact that God directly and explicitly told him NOT to eat from that tree, or else he would die.

The issue, as I see it is entirely the fault of Adam, and not the fact that Satan beguiled Even nor the fact that Eve charmed Adam, but that when God created humans, he did not create any robots; he created a free moral agent with the capacity to disobey God by exercising his free choice inappropriately.

In advance, God knew that A&E would fall. He did not decree the fall, but He permitted it so that His Plan of Salvation would be possible. To think that the Plan of Salvation is somehow God's "Plan B" is to demean God to being capricious, and impotent because Satan then thawarted His plans, and that NEVER can be the case.

If you have a theological background, I strongly recommend that you read Biblical Theology by Geerhadus Vos. You can see it HERE

The prologue reads as follows:

The aim of this book is no less than to provide an account of the unfolding of the mind of God in history, through the successive agents of his special revelation. Vos handles this under three main divisions: the Mosaic epoch of revelation, the prophetic epoch of revelation, and the New Testament. Such an historical approach is not meant to supplant the work of the systematic theologian; nevertheless, the Christian gospel is inextricably bound up with history, and the biblical theologian thus seeks to highlight the uniqueness of each biblical document in that succession. The rich variety of Scripture is discovered anew as the progressive development of biblical themes is explicated
​

.
The book is deep, for sure, but it was formative book in developing my theology.

Hope this helps!

 

[netchaplain]

If there is any mitigation of the extent of the fall, it would make the doctrine of total depravity false, and Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned" a lie.

Hi BG and God's blessings to your Family! I believe it's as you've stated, that human nature (except Christ's) is sinful, for "Scripture hath concluded all under sin" (Gal 3:22).

I'm definitely a proponent of what you stated here; "In advance, God knew that A&E would fall. He did not decree the fall, but He permitted it so that His Plan of Salvation would be possible." In His omniscience there are no mistakes because He pre-planned to use everything "according to His purpose".

If my post appeared to blame Eve only, that was not my intent, because I believe blame always falls to the one sinning--which was both.

James 1 :14 teaches that an act of sin comes from within self; "he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed". Also, the act of sinning is premeditated; "when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin".

Thanks for your input. I think we are very close in our concepts here.

 

[By Grace]

Greetings to you, and your lovely wife, NetChaplain!

Hi BG and God's blessings to your Family! I believe it's as you've stated, that human nature (except Christ's) is sinful, for "Scripture hath concluded all under sin" (Gal 3:22).

I'm definitely a proponent of what you stated here; "In advance, God knew that A&E would fall. He did not decree the fall, but He permitted it so that His Plan of Salvation would be possible." In His omniscience there are no mistakes because He pre-planned to use everything "according to His purpose".

If my post appeared to blame Eve only, that was not my intent, because I believe blame always falls to the one sinning--which was both.

James 1 :14 teaches that an act of sin comes from within self; "he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed". Also, the act of sinning is premeditated; "when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin".

Thanks for your input. I think we are very close in our concepts here.

I am replying in the spirit of discussion and clarification, but not debate and contentiousness. There is a fine line between the two, and it is not my intention to cross it. However you may believe differently, so in advance, I ask for both your indulgence, and correction if that line is crossed. I do enjoy sharp discussion, especially on theological issues, but not to the point that it becomes contentious.

In that irenic spirit, I ask for clarification on what you posted here:

1) Either Eve possessed the tendency prior to the act or the Enemy implanted it in her heart and mind. I do not think the Lord would allow the devil to implant evil in them or he could have his way with them.

2)It's true that until they were tested (for their learning, not God's), disobedience was not in their mind, but it's tendency was shown to be in their heart and I think God placing the tree there was His first lesson to begin revealing to man His will and desires.

3)I believe God's plan was for man to "become as One of Us, to know good and evil (Gen 3:22)", which is related to Their desire to "make man in Our image, after Our likeness" (Gen 1:26).

BACKGROUND
In the book I recommended by Vos, he stated that Eden was a probation for booth A & E. By that, I take it that God created every being with will, intellect and emotion so each could make the choice to believe and obey, or to disobey, and face judgment. Because the ontological nature of angels, they are permitted to choose once. Part of the reason for that has to do with the nature and extent of the Atonement: it is purposed only for elect humankind. Ephesians 1:4

Therefore

I do not believe the first part of sentence 1 above in the quote is stated accurately. If she had the tendeency for sin planted in her, that means that God is the author of sin, and that Eve (and Adam) are not culpable for their sins. If they are not guilty of sinning due to the design of God, then that would make a compelling argument for universal salvation. (I know that is NOT your belief, OK?) OTOH, if Satan, the Serpent placed that "tendency to sin" in her, then it would make Satan a co-creator with God, by definition. So we are faced with an untenable situation if we accept either premise in sentence 1.

As we agree, as mentioned in your second sentence in # 1 above, I will not belabor the point except to state that sometimes we have no inkling of how powerful the freedom to choose in in the life of both the redeemed and heathen.

================================================================

While you and I use different words, we express the same thoughts in 2. A probation is the same as a test. Therefore no discussion is necessary.

==============================================================

Genesis 3: 22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever
​

.
Jamison, Fawcett and Brown among other commentariess believe that this verse is a statement or irony:

22. And God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us—not spoken in irony as is generally supposed, but in deep compassion. The words should be rendered, "Behold, what has become [by sin] of the man who was as one of us"! Formed, at first, in our image to know good and evil—how sad his condition now.
and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life—This tree being a pledge of that immortal life with which obedience should be rewarded, man lost, on his fall, all claim to this tree; and therefore, that he might not eat of it or delude himself with the idea that eating of it would restore what he had forfeited, the Lord sent him forth from the garden.

​

As a result, I see this verse a reflection of and a mocking of what Satan said in Genesis 3 before Eve gave into temptation:

Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
​

The doctrine of being created "in the image of God" has been debated forever, it seems. My take is that God has UNLIMITED capabilities to love, create and express emotions, we can do likewise, but only to a very strict and limited way. I also believe it is those capacities which none of the angels possess (Satan is a fallen angel) but are very jealous of having is one thing that drives Satan's hatred against all of humanity, not just Christians. But since I have no Scripture to prove that, I reserve the right to be wrong on that. :D

I am also interested in your title, "The Controlled Fall" Since I never heard that phrase before, I am wondering if you would explain that further, and then explain what the opposite, "a uncontrolled fall" would be like-- if there is such a thing?

have a great day in the Lord, friend!

 

[netchaplain]

Hi GB - I appreciate your preface concerning the manner of sharing, which should always be sharing "the truth in love" (Eph 4:15).

Though you have a lot of instructional material with this post, I am slowly trying to persuade others not to continue spending much time with its concept concerning the chronology of the presence of the sin nature in man, but to be more involved with the truth that God foreknew He would be using what they did as part of His plans.

This was my primary intent of the thread because in realizing God has foreknowledge of all things, prior to creation from eternity past, we can rest assured that we are all in His sovereign control.

Thanks for humble input and chat ya latter!

 

[By Grace]

Hi GB - I appreciate your preface concerning the manner of sharing, which should always be sharing "the truth in love" (Eph 4:15).

Though you have a lot of instructional material with this post, I am slowly trying to persuade others not to continue spending much time with its concept concerning the chronology of the presence of the sin nature in man, but to be more involved with the truth that God foreknew He would be using what they did as part of His plans.

This was my primary intent of the thread because in realizing God has foreknowledge of all things, prior to creation from eternity past, we can rest assured that we are all in His sovereign control.

Thanks for humble input and chat ya latter!

You can never go wrong when you preach or teach about the sovereignty of God!