The 'cross' and the 'crucifix'?

[Imagican]

Just wondering what others think of these 'symbols'?

If we were capable 'in the least', and I DO mean 'least', of placing ourselves in the shoes, (just a figure of speach), of Christ for just a 'tiny, tiny' bit, what would our thoughts be of the 'crosses and crucifix's associated with Christianity.

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of the importance of the 'event' that took place upon 'a cross'. But how would we feel each time we were reminded of this event, NOT by seeing it's 'effects' in the lives of others, but upon observation of their 'wearing' this symbol about their necks, placing it upon the roof tops of their houses of worship, placing bumper stickers on their cars, etc..........?

 

[ChristineES]

I wear a cross around my neck. It is to let people know I am a Christian. I want people to know that I am a Christian. I suppose that is the same for a lot of other people putting this symbol everywhere.
But it is just a symbol. What Christ did for us cannot be made into a symbol. Plus you have to be careful, and not worship the symbol instead of God. And just wearing this symbol doesn't make one a Christian.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

used to wear one. but i am not perfect and do not wish to give Christians a bad name should i fall... but thats really just a personal thing. when they simply become jewelry, then it means nothing and is a mockery. when it is a reminder and can even help to prevent sin, then i feel it is appropriate.

 

[Imagican]

I guess I should have been more clear in my question. Let me try it again.

I know it would be impossible for us to place ourselves in Christs' place, but, with our limited ability, if we were to 'try', how do you think we would feel when we saw a world full of 'sinners' wearing an image of the cause of our pain and suffering in order to bring about their salvation? Would we look upon them and think, "wow, they really love me", or would we look down upon them and think "wow, weren't you warned against such idolotry? And not only do you ignore my Father's teachings, but you murder me again each and every time I am forced to look upon such an evil means of torturing and murdering your neihbors". Father forgive them, for they know NOT what they do.

 

[Ryan Collins]

As a Christian, I don't think I'd ever wear a Crucific or get one tattooed on me (I'm into tattoos), solely because Christ didn't STAY on the cross. The Cross is a perfect symbol for a Christian because it shows a barren cross that is unoccupied, because the cross which Christ was crucified on is in fact unoccupied. He rose from the dead off of that cross, therefore, why still depict Christ on the cross when he isn't actually on the cross?

 

[TruthMiner]

As a Christian, I don't think I'd ever wear a Crucific or get one tattooed on me (I'm into tattoos), solely because Christ didn't STAY on the cross. The Cross is a perfect symbol for a Christian because it shows a barren cross that is unoccupied, because the cross which Christ was crucified on is in fact unoccupied. He rose from the dead off of that cross, therefore, why still depict Christ on the cross when he isn't actually on the cross?

Who ever HAS stayed on the cross?

An empty cross only symbolizes a man buried in a tomb.

He did not rise from the cross. He was buried from the cross. He rose from the tomb.

Maybe you could hang a stone rolled away around your neck.

 

[stovebolts]

Imagician,

I believe that the cross represents and is a symbol of the physical and mental suffering that Christ endured. Without suffering, he would not have been perfected.

Hebrews 2:10 For it befitted him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he has perfected forever them that are sanctified.

Hebrews 13:12 Therefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered outside the gate.

This verse holds significance. Remember, all offerings were made in the temple, but yet, we are told in the OT what was to be placed outside the temple and why.

 

[Imagican]

I certainly understand that there are those that seem 'beholden' to the 'cross'. I also understand that there is much money to be made in the 'selling' of such. I simply offer that when I step back and 'try' to place myself in the place of Christ 'concerning the cross', I personally don't think that it would bring about a remembrance of ANYTHING pleasant.

And I haven't even hit upon the graven image part, yet.

Maybe I am the one that is confused here, wouldn't be the first time and certainly won't be the last, but weren't we commanded NOT to worship ANY graven image? Isn't ANYTHING made by the HAND of man a 'graven image'? So, with these things in mind, wouldn't it take quite a stretch of the imagination, (or self will), to do EXACTLY what we were commanded NOT to do for ANY reason?

And what is it about the cross that many find so 'tempting' to use as a symbol of their Christianity? Do we really need to advertise using a 'symbol'? Wouldn't living our lives for Christ be a more righteous sign of our devotion rather than simply using some kind of graven image?

And, when we take into consideration that it seems to be a prevalent symbol used by the spirit of 'anti-Christ', could it be both good and evil at the same time? I mean, when one sees subversive 'gangster' types, with their diamond encrusted crosses hung with NO shame upon their necks, singing songs of rape, murder, drugs, money and violence, isn't this a pretty obvious sign that this is NOTHING short of mockery? The only difference is degree.

 

[stovebolts]

I see your point Imagician and I once asked those very questions.

But I don't think that every image created becomes an engraven image to be worshipped. Look at the snake that God told Moses to make... Now, to that end, I am sure that there were a few that worshipped the snake, as there are those that worship the cross and further those that worship the bread and wine that represent the body and blood of Christ. And yes, I am sure that there are those who exploit these items for a dollar amount.

But getting back to the cross, I believe that as a symbol, it should be a reminder of the suffering that Christ went through. But yes, our life styles should certainly be a symbol of Christ dwelling within us that those around us can clearly see through our actions.

As far as the gangsta's... Anything good can be twisted to evil. It's only a shame when we become so fearfull of being associated with a Godly item that we loose the true meaning for fear of mere association. Gee, I wonder what the religious community thought of Jesus being around all them sinners? Same concept...

Anyway, I'm done for the day. Enjoy your afternoon.

 

[Imagican]

Stove,

I don't feel 'fear' in an association with evil as far as symbols are concerned. I simply feel that we were warned against using 'any' symbols.

And there's a BIG difference in following God's commands, and following our 'own' interpretation of them. Yes, God has commanded the creation of certain symbols in the OT. But those were commanded of Him, FOR Him. Big difference between this and our creating our 'own' symbols. I have NEVER read a single word concerning ANY commandment concerning the cross.

Now, when we consider the 'who' in the creation and teaching of the symbols of crosses and 'Jesus 'fishes'', etc.......... I find that these might just be more 'idols', (graven images), that we were warned 'against'.

Perhaps part of the reason that we were warned against using symbols is that they 'CAN' be subverted or used for evil purposes as well as good. And to keep ANY from being subverted, we were commanded not to create or use them.

Don't you think that Satan both cringes and rejoices at the sight of a cross? Cringes for he was unable to subvert our Lord. Rejoices in the pain and suffering, (death), that Christ, (his enemy), endured upon one. And wouldn't it stand to reason that the cross could signify this rejoicing of Satan as well as the purpose of the cross as used in Christianity.

So, let us say that it had never been created and taught to be used in the Christian religion. Wouldn't it be better to hold Christ in our hearts and simply understand the significance of the cross in our minds, rather than create a 'man-made' symbol that Satan could use to 'mock' Christ? I mean one must admit that Satan certainly gained much satisfaction in the pain and death of Christ. He certainly 'lost' the war, but the battles rage on and he certainly was able to witness the pain and death of his enemy.

And the cross IS NOT a symbol of resurrection, it is a symbol of the means with which Christ was forced to suffer and die for our sins. Not a 'good' thing when one considers the utter ruthlessness of such a device of torture and death. And, isn't it amazing that those same folks that used this means of execution were the 'same' ones that introduced us to the cross of 'Christianity'? WOW.

 

[stovebolts]

Hey Imagican

I don't see anything worth disagreeing with in your last post and again, we will agree in many areas.

I would like to touch on one item though, just to clear any misconceptions, if in deed it may be a misconception.

You wrote:
And the cross IS NOT a symbol of resurrection, it is a symbol of the means with which Christ was forced to suffer and die for our sins.

I wrote:
I believe that as a symbol, it should be a reminder of the suffering that Christ went through.

You see, we are in agreement. But for those that do believe that it is a symbol of the resurection, I see no harm. Where I see harm, is when it becmes an object of worship instead of a reminder.

The church that I attend has no crosses on display for some of the very reasons that you have mentioned. But on the flip side, I don't know many that would call the cross evil. If you would like, I can send you some interesting and very persuasive links on the cross by those who see it as an evil pagan idol.

Perhaps where we see things a bit differently is how God uses Satan...?

 

[Imagican]

I will pass on the links to the 'cross'. But I would certainly be interested in hearing more about 'how God 'uses' Satan.

I believe that Satan is pretty much, 'on his own'. If anything, I believe that Satan uses God. But I would certainly be interested in hearing how the opposite is true.

Stove,

I didn't bring up this subject to 'ridicule' people that use such symbols in their religious lives. I simply wish to bring to their attention that there will often be things that they don't 'know any better' than to participate in. I would imagine that there are very many among us that have never even questioned the legitimacy of the 'cross' as it is used. Never studied the history of it, or 'who' introduced it's use into 'Christianity'. For these I have offered this thread.

So, guys and gals. before you attempt a defense of this object, do yourselves a favor. Instead of trying to 'defend', first learn of it's creation and purpose. Then one would be in a position to argue one way or the other.

When we look back and see that this symbol was only popularized in the churches after 300 AD, one quickly begins to question it's validity. It would seem that if this were divinely inspired, it would have been in existence much sooner than over 300 years AFTER the death of Christ. And then, when one considers that Constantine, (a pagan emperor), used a symbol very similar to the cross, (thus bringing about part of the beginning of it's popularity), it becomes even more suspect.

Just a bit of food for thought. No offense intended.

 

[Free]

I sometimes wear a cross and I have a bookmark with a crucifix. I obviously have no problem with either.

 

[Imagican]

I sometimes wear a cross and I have a bookmark with a crucifix. I obviously have no problem with either.

And neither do I, have a problem with your crosses or other symbols that you choose to surround yourself with. I simply point out that we were warned NOT to take a part in them.

Free, which graven images are we to avoid? And WHO do you believe is capable of discerning these? My Bible says ANY, not 'some'.

And if your brother, father, sister or mother was strapped in an electric chair for refusing to deny Christ or God, I doubt seriously that you would use this 'symbol' in rememberance of them. Why? Because the 'means' of their death would be a 'negative' thing compared to the life that they lived. And, to take this a step further, Christ is NOT dead but lives yet. So what must His feelings be when He looks down upon those that offer the symbol of his cruel death to denote their beliefs? I don't think that it takes a 'rocket scientist' to understand what I am offering here. Just a little compasion is all.

 

[thessalonian]

The second commandment run amuk. Rip the pictures of those cute little kiddies and that wife of yours out of your wallet as well folks. I don't think Christ minds at all what great lengths he WENT to to save our souls from eternal damnation. Can't imagine. Perhaps those words about the crusifixion shoud be removed from the bible as well so that we would not think about them.

 

[Imagican]

The second commandment run amuk. Rip the pictures of those cute little kiddies and that wife of yours out of your wallet as well folks. I don't think Christ minds at all what great lengths he WENT to to save our souls from eternal damnation. Can't imagine. Perhaps those words about the crusifixion shoud be removed from the bible as well so that we would not think about them.

Thess,

Big difference in an understanding of the price Christ payed and wearing the symbol of His torurous death about ones neck. And, big difference in a picture of a loved one and bowing to a wooden statue to pray.

I challenge anyone to do a little hirtory research into the 'cross' and then do a little serious praying about the issue before defending it.

Again, I ask YOU this time Thess, exactly WHICH graven images are 'OK'. And HOW would you KNOW this? Did not God command that we are to worship NO graven images? If not worship then, what would you call the vereration of crosses by the Catholic Church? There seems to me to be little difference in the use of the cross and the worship of wooden images.

 

[thessalonian]

Thess,

Big difference in an understanding of the price Christ payed and wearing the symbol of His torurous death about ones neck. And, big difference in a picture of a loved one and bowing to a wooden statue to pray.

Hey are pictures images or not. If you are going to separate out "make no graven image" as a command of it's own, then you can't pick and choose as you are. It's not a problem for me. For me the cross is not a symbol of what they did to him but what he did for me. I can't imagine that he minds me thinking about that. That is why it is always around my neck, reminding me how much he loves me. I don't always carry my Bible. I can't read the passage 24 hours a day but my crusifix reminds me. I don't worship it.

I challenge anyone to do a little hirtory research into the 'cross' and then do a little serious praying about the issue before defending it.

Of course the only logical conclusion we will come to if we do this is yours. Sorry. I didn't.

Again, I ask YOU this time Thess, exactly WHICH graven images are 'OK'. And HOW would you KNOW this? Did not God command that we are to worship NO graven images? If not worship then, what would you call the vereration of crosses by the Catholic Church? There seems to me to be little difference in the use of the cross and the worship of wooden images.

Well pictures are okay for you. I don't worship ANY graven images. I don't ask the crusifix around my neck for a sports car. It is only a reminder to me of God's great love for me. That is not worshipping it. Even bowing down in front of it cannot automatically be said to be worship. The Hebrew peope bowed down before the ark of the covenant. Were they worshipping it? No. Veneration is honor. Not neccessarily worship. You force your definition of worship upon everyone. Bowing down is not neccessarily worship. David and Solomon bowed down before Bethsheba. God himself though Issac said the people would all bow down before Jacob. No worship going on her. Worship is a matter of the heart. You cannot judge hearts imagican no matter how hard you try. Worship is a matter of the heart and I will let God judge mine.

Blessings though

 

[Imagican]

Obviously your understanding of worship and mine are a bit different. You don't ask your sports car for anything either but it could certainly be an object of worship. We worship that which we adore. To adore is to love. So, in this understanding of worship, do you worship your 'cross'?

And Thess, considering where the cross came from and who created it, I fully understand your defense of this image. Really, I do. But, and I mean BUT, for others that are not aware of the issues surrounding this image, I have offered what I have offered for 'their' sakes.

Not once has anyone truly addressed ANY of the most important issues that I have brought up. Some of the minor ones, but NONE of the major ones. I guess that is because these are easier to ignore or look over than to face head on. No, problem, I understand. Much like a smoker, or a drinker, or a, well, anyone that chooses to live their lives apart from that which we were commanded would do, just ignore 'that' part of the Word for the sake of a 'guilty' conscience.

I have witnessed the teachings of the churches. They make a 'house of business' of their buildings, (totally AGAINST scripture). They perpetuate this symbolism of crosses while accusing others of idolatry for their images. They refuse to teach their congregations to build their OWN relationship with God through His Son. And insist that 'trinity' MUST be accepted or one is unable to be 'born again'.

Sorry guys. I don't buy it. I worship no men or their crosses. (or Christmas trees for that matter). And I have enough problems in my walk without adding to them. Much like the smoker that sits with a cigarette hanging in his mouth while telling others about Christ and God, I believe that the cross offers no more of a testimony than this. Poor at best.

And, one more question, Thess, are you a sinner? Boy, if that symbol is a reminder of the price Christ payed upon the cross, how do you feel towards it when you sin?

 

[Free]

And neither do I, have a problem with your crosses or other symbols that you choose to surround yourself with. I simply point out that we were warned NOT to take a part in them.

Where?

Free, which graven images are we to avoid? And WHO do you believe is capable of discerning these? My Bible says ANY, not 'some'.

Well, seeing as how "graven image" comes from the root word pacal meaning "to cut, hew, hew into shape," and it is all in the immediate context of not having other gods, it is clear that Thess was right: this is clearly "the second commandment run amuk".

And if your brother, father, sister or mother was strapped in an electric chair for refusing to deny Christ or God, I doubt seriously that you would use this 'symbol' in rememberance of them. Why?

Because they wouldn't be dying for my sins or the sins of the whole world.

Because the 'means' of their death would be a 'negative' thing compared to the life that they lived.

You cannot separate the death of Christ from his life. His death was the whole reason he came and the whole reason his death was effective was because of how he lived his life. It is utterly absurd to imply that Christ's death was a negative thing compared to his life. Without his death none of us would have life and his life would have been wasted.

So what must His feelings be when He looks down upon those that offer the symbol of his cruel death to denote their beliefs?

I am sure he wants us to remember the symbol of his death. Not only is it a continual reminder of what he did and what he went through to reconcile the world to God and avert God's wrath, but it is a reminder that we are to take up our crosses daily and follow, even to death on a cross.

I don't think that it takes a 'rocket scientist' to understand what I am offering here. Just a little compasion is all.

And I don't think Christ is looking for pity.

 

[TanNinety]

I am sure he wants us to remember the symbol of his death. Not only is it a continual reminder of what he did and what he went through to reconcile the world to God and avert God's wrath, but it is a reminder that we are to take up our crosses daily and follow, even to death on a cross.

Isn't that what "breaking of bread and drinking wine" was all about, the rememberance and reminding of His death?
But it is easy to follow what man came up with than what Jesus commanded us to do in His remembrance.

Isn't taking up our crosses a far stretch to apply to carry it around your neck as a symbol?

I am not against anyone who chooses to, but it is better for ones attitude and lifestyle to remind you of Jesus rather than a cross.