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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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The Dead Knows Nothing Says The Bible
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
- 14,249
- 81
Of course, no one that I know of is claiming that dead bodies "know anything". I take Solomon at his word - those who have died are in a state of conscious non-existence. If they are in full flower of conscious awareness in heaven, how is it that they "know nothing". The only response that seem open to the "we go to heaven when we die" supporter, short of saying that Solomon is expressing his speculations as a human being and not writing God's truth (a position that I actually have some respect for) is to create a mysteriouus "split" between "knowledge that is borne by the spirit" and "knowledge that is borne by the body. I see no Biblical basis for such a distinction.Lewis W said:
And it seems strange that Solomon talks about the loss of "body knowledge" at death and fails to mention that a rich body of knowledge is indeed not lost - presumably one's "spirit knowledge" which one carries into heaven. Would you or I make such an oversight if we were expressing our views about the fate of man? I doubt it.
Lewis
Member
- Aug 5, 2005
- 15,483
- 621
- Thread starter
- #3
Eccl 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor beraised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that Thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that Thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be past, that Thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer Thee: Thou wilt have a desire to the work of Thine hands.
Job 17:11 My days are past, my purposes are broken off, even the thoughts of my heart.
Job 17:12 They change the night into day: the light is short because of darkness.
Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, thou art my father: to the worm, thou art my mother, and my sister.
Job 17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise Thee, death can not celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
MAN IS NOT IMMORTAL
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
1 Tim 6:16 Who (Christ Jesus) ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
DEATH IS LIKENED TO SLEEP
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
1 Ki 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
1 Cor 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
2 Chr 33:20 So Manasseh slept with his fathers, and they buried him in his own house: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.
RESURRECTION IS LIKENED TO AWAKENING
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
CHRIST IS THE SOLUTION TO DEATH
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
BELIEF IN HIM - LIFE EVERLASTING - NON-BELIEVERS REAP DEATH
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
RESURRECTION
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Ezek 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Ezek 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Ezek 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
RESURRECTION IS THE BASIS OF THE GOSPEL OF GOD’S GRACE
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Acts 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
RESURRECTION (NOT DEATH) IS THE EVENT WHICH WILL BRING US INTO THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead LIVED NOT again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
CHRIST WAS THE FIRST TO HAVE LIFE AFTER DEATH
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
SOUL
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Two things are created here to make a soul. Notice, it does NOT say, that we have a soul, but that we are a soul.
Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul DIED in the sea.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_script ... _death.htm
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 49:12 Nevertheless man being in honour abideth not: he is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 49:14 Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.
Psa 49:20 Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
Psa 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?
Psa 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Job 14:7 For there is hope of a tree, if it be cut down, that it will sprout again, and that the tender branch thereof will not cease.
Job 14:8 Though the root thereof wax old in the earth, and the stock thereof die in the ground;
Job 14:9 Yet through the scent of water it will bud, and bring forth boughs like a plant.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
Job 14:11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor beraised out of their sleep.
Job 14:13 O that Thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that Thou wouldest keep me secret, until Thy wrath be past, that Thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer Thee: Thou wilt have a desire to the work of Thine hands.
Job 17:11 My days are past, my purposes are broken off, even the thoughts of my heart.
Job 17:12 They change the night into day: the light is short because of darkness.
Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, thou art my father: to the worm, thou art my mother, and my sister.
Job 17:15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it?
Job 17:16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.
Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise Thee, death can not celebrate Thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.
MAN IS NOT IMMORTAL
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
1 Tim 6:16 Who (Christ Jesus) ONLY hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
DEATH IS LIKENED TO SLEEP
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
John 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
John 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
1 Ki 2:10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
1 Cor 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
2 Chr 33:20 So Manasseh slept with his fathers, and they buried him in his own house: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.
RESURRECTION IS LIKENED TO AWAKENING
Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Psa 17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.
CHRIST IS THE SOLUTION TO DEATH
John 6:33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
BELIEF IN HIM - LIFE EVERLASTING - NON-BELIEVERS REAP DEATH
John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
John 6:48 I am that bread of life.
John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
1 John 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
1 Cor 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
RESURRECTION
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Ezek 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
Ezek 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
Ezek 37:14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
RESURRECTION IS THE BASIS OF THE GOSPEL OF GOD’S GRACE
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Acts 4:2 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.
Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.
Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
RESURRECTION (NOT DEATH) IS THE EVENT WHICH WILL BRING US INTO THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead LIVED NOT again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
John 13:36 Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.
John 13:37 Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.
John 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
John 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
CHRIST WAS THE FIRST TO HAVE LIFE AFTER DEATH
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.
SOUL
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Two things are created here to make a soul. Notice, it does NOT say, that we have a soul, but that we are a soul.
Job 12:9 Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the LORD hath wrought this?
Job 12:10 In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Ezek 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man; and every living soul DIED in the sea.
Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1 Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_script ... _death.htm
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
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Well, I must admit that I have apparently misunderstood your position Lewis. Obviously you believe that the Scriptures teach that man does not go directly to the presence of God as the impressive list of scriptures you have provided so clearly teach. Instead he "sleeps" until called forth at the end of time. And I think your posted verses indeed show that man does not have a soul, he is a soul.
Have you not represented yourself as holding a different position? That's no crime - I accepted the "traditional" view until I took the study of Scripture more seriously.
Have you not represented yourself as holding a different position? That's no crime - I accepted the "traditional" view until I took the study of Scripture more seriously.
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
- 14,249
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If, and this is a big if, you are claiming that the spirit that goes back to God at death is in any sense a conscious thing - an entity that thinks things, knows things, interacts, praises God etc., then I would claim that it is clear that the very texts you listed undermine that position.Lewis W said:
If the spirit that goes back to God does not have these properties, then I think your view is entirely scriptural.
Lewis
Member
- Aug 5, 2005
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Drew, I should not have posted that whole page. The point I was trying to get at, was about the body. But I just copied and pasted the whole page, and I should not have. But below is some Scriptures that I use sometimes on this subject.
Job 7:6-10
6My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope.
7O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.
8The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
9As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Job 14:10-15
10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 14:20-22
20Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away.
21His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
22But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.
Now those last 2 verses are talking about him passing away and his body knows it not. And it talks about his sons coming to see him and that body knows it not. And it talks about the pain the sons are having over his death, not pain of the dead body.
Job 7:6-10
6My days are swifter than a weaver's shuttle, and are spent without hope.
7O remember that my life is wind: mine eye shall no more see good.
8The eye of him that hath seen me shall see me no more: thine eyes are upon me, and I am not.
9As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Job 14:10-15
10But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
Job 14:20-22
20Thou prevailest for ever against him, and he passeth: thou changest his countenance, and sendest him away.
21His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
22But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.
Now those last 2 verses are talking about him passing away and his body knows it not. And it talks about his sons coming to see him and that body knows it not. And it talks about the pain the sons are having over his death, not pain of the dead body.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
Lewis W said:
Bro, when I read it and read over the site in general, I thought to myself, I know Lewis and this isn't what he believes. They aren't supporting the state of just the body, but the body and soul, like in Matthew 10:28This is what they believe:
http://www.heavendwellers.com/hd_death_ ... l_menu.htm
I'm trying to sort through their Statement of Faith, but it appears to be a bit convoluted.
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
- 14,249
- 81
I still think that the texts that Lewis has posted are devastating to the traditional view that a believer's spirit, carrying consciousness, awareness, communication capabilities etc, goes to heaven immediately at death.
Consider
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
According to the "one's conscious spirit goes straight to heaven at death" view, one has to believe that this really means:
And no man's body hath ascended up to heaven (although the consciousness bearing essence of who he really is, has), but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand
According to the "one's conscious spirit goes straight to heaven at death" view, one has to believe that this really means:
For David's body is not ascended into the heavens (but his consciousness bearing spirit has): but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand
John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
According to the "one's conscious spirit goes straight to heaven at death" view, one has to believe that this really means:
John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither your body cannot come, but the essence of who you are - your consciousness-bearing spirit can .
Is it not strange that in the John 7:33-34 text, Jesus clearly believes that both his spirit and body are going to heaven (we all believe in physical ascent of Jesus into heaven, don't we?) and yet he is apparently only addressing the state of affairs of the bodies (and not the spirits) of this followers?
Surely I am not the only one who sees the glaring problem here: it seems absurd that all these statements would be made about the fate of human beings, with the intent only to say that the body cannot go directly to heaven, but omitting the very significant fact a consciousness bearing entity can indeed go directly to heaven.
Why have these authors not made this important distinction explicit?
If, by the traditionalist's position, the spirit is where the essence of a person - feeing, thought, experience, and communication - really reside, it seems strange that this aspect of the human person is not being addressed in statements which, instead, address the situation re a "flesh shell" in which such essence can be encased.
This would be like me saying "I am not going to Indiana" in order to communicate the following intent "my mind, feelings, thoughts, communication capabilities are going to Indiana but my body is not".
Or, this like me saying "I am not going to Indiana" in order to communicate the following intent: "I am going to Indiana but my three-piece suit is not".
Consider
John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
According to the "one's conscious spirit goes straight to heaven at death" view, one has to believe that this really means:
And no man's body hath ascended up to heaven (although the consciousness bearing essence of who he really is, has), but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand
According to the "one's conscious spirit goes straight to heaven at death" view, one has to believe that this really means:
For David's body is not ascended into the heavens (but his consciousness bearing spirit has): but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand
John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come.
According to the "one's conscious spirit goes straight to heaven at death" view, one has to believe that this really means:
John 7:33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.
John 7:34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither your body cannot come, but the essence of who you are - your consciousness-bearing spirit can .
Is it not strange that in the John 7:33-34 text, Jesus clearly believes that both his spirit and body are going to heaven (we all believe in physical ascent of Jesus into heaven, don't we?) and yet he is apparently only addressing the state of affairs of the bodies (and not the spirits) of this followers?
Surely I am not the only one who sees the glaring problem here: it seems absurd that all these statements would be made about the fate of human beings, with the intent only to say that the body cannot go directly to heaven, but omitting the very significant fact a consciousness bearing entity can indeed go directly to heaven.
Why have these authors not made this important distinction explicit?
If, by the traditionalist's position, the spirit is where the essence of a person - feeing, thought, experience, and communication - really reside, it seems strange that this aspect of the human person is not being addressed in statements which, instead, address the situation re a "flesh shell" in which such essence can be encased.
This would be like me saying "I am not going to Indiana" in order to communicate the following intent "my mind, feelings, thoughts, communication capabilities are going to Indiana but my body is not".
Or, this like me saying "I am not going to Indiana" in order to communicate the following intent: "I am going to Indiana but my three-piece suit is not".
Lewis
Member
- Aug 5, 2005
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- Thread starter
- #10
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, says the Bible. And when Jesus comes back he is bring the ones, who have passed from their earthly life back with him. And the lion will lay down with the lamb.
Because Jesus Is Coming Back ...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:22
In Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians, one of the significant issues dealt with is Jesus return. Much modern speculation is rampant about the possibility of Jesus imminent return. Is it important for us to know when Jesus will return? A careful study of I Thessalonians 4:13-5:22 will tell us what we really need to know about
when Jesus is coming. Paul writes:
1 Thessalonians 4:13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."
In these verses, Paul confidently affirms that there is a resurrection to come. Christians, unlike others who have no promise of an afterlife, should look forward to being with God after their physical death. Paul, in no uncertain terms declares that those who are dead in Christ will be raised from the dead! Death is not final!
Notice the phrase in verse 14 which says God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus, then the parallel in verse 16 which says, the dead in Christ shall rise first. There is no doubt that those saints which have died will partake of the resurrection. The evidence, the proof of this is found in the fact of Jesus' resurrection.
There is a great temptation to stop here and examine in greater detail, the state of the dead in Christ, and just exactly what will occur at Jesus' return, but that is not really Paul's purpose. Paul very clearly lets it be known that there is a cause and effect relationship at work in his words. Therefore comfort one another is indication to us that there should be great comfort in the confident assurance of Jesus resurrection and the very necessary inference that if God raised Jesus from the dead, God can do it again and raise others from the dead! Look at the development of Paul's hypothesis.
Paul is saying:
1. There is no doubt that Jesus was resurrected!
2. There is not doubt that what God has done once, he can do again!
3. When Jesus returns, God will raise the dead in Christ.
4. Those still living shall join them meeting Jesus.
5. We shall ever be with the Lord!
With Jesus resurrection as the proof and guarantee that there is a resurrection for us, we are to comfort each other. How many times do we find it necessary to comfort each other in our spiritual doubtings and weaknesses? Through it all, we need to be reminded of the concepts Paul sets forth here. Great spiritual strength can and should be derived from the assurance of Jesus resurrection. Jesus is raised! We will be raised! What great comfort! But these words merely set the stage for a further principle! With this for our foundation, Paul continues:
1 Thessalonians 5:1 "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
In these verses, Paul, again clearly and without question, says that no one knows when Jesus will return. He gives no hints about how to tell when Jesus will come back; in fact, indicates that it will be a surprise to everyone, even the faithful! When has anyone ever heard of a thief who called and warned his victim that he was going to burglarize their house on a particular day? It doesn't happen! Nor will men know when Jesus is to return. Because no one knows, many will not believe that he will ever return. Some look at the long time that has passed and conclude that He will never come. Others, look at the long time that has already passed and say it will be a longer time still until Jesus return. They are saying, "Peace and safety!" They are secure in their belief. Paul then points out that Jesus return will be sudden. It will be like the onset of a woman's labor pains, Jesus return will be sudden and climactic. Finally, he says there will be a universal awareness of Jesus' return. The doubters, will not escape!
In 5:1 through 5:5, Paul made the following points:
1. No one knows when the Lord will return.
2. His return will be a surprise to all, even the faithful.
3. Doubters and unbelievers will feel secure in their safety.
4. When he does come, it will be universal! Even the doubters and unbelievers will know of it.
Having demonstrated these points, an interesting observation is made! The faithful brethren, even though they do not know when Jesus will return, will not be taken by surprise! In verses 4 and 5 he says:
1 Thessalonians 5:4 "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;"
Paul used two figures in verses 4 and 5 to make his point. These are the figures of "day" and "night." The idea is that during the day, good and constructive things are accomplished by the industrious, while, at night, men work that which is unseemly and evil. Remember the words of Jesus himself in Luke 12:42-46?
Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 "Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers."
So the faithful are characterized as being of "day" because they are busy for God and hence stay in a state or condition of preparedness. The unfaithful are characterized by night and darkness, because they are neither prepared to nor concerned about serving God.
If even the faithful do not know when Jesus will return, how can His return not be a surprise? The faithful expect his return momentarily, and are continually prepared for His return! The faithful cannot be caught unprepared, because the very fact of the uncertainty of when Jesus will return causes them to stay in a state of preparedness. The very uncertainty of when Jesus will return creates a sense of expectation and diligence. Like a child listening for Santa on Christmas Eve, the hope and joy keep him from sleeping. Jesus may return any moment! I cant wait! Come quickly Lord Jesus, come quickly! What a wonderful disposition to have!
Now we come to the reason for the discussion of Jesus' return! Because Jesus is coming back, we should take the following steps!
1 Thessalonians 5:6 "...so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation."
The first quality that should characterize the Christian who is expecting Jesus to return is his alertness. The Christian will be like the watchman of old who is ever alert to the approach of any, whether they be friend or foe. He is constantly watching for danger and always prepared to turn away any attack. This same alertness and
response to danger, keeps him in a state of preparedness to meet any threats. He will not be taken unawares by any evil, not because he has been warned, but because he is on his guard! By the same token, he will also be prepared for his Lords return.
The second thing that will characterize the Christian who is expecting Jesus to return is sobriety. This is in contrast to those who are drunken in verse 7. The one who is drunken has decided that how he behaves is not important; he wont be caught. Nothing is going to happen! The one who remains sober is determined to be prepared for any and all eventualities, whether they be good or bad. His mind is set on service to God.
Then we are told that we should stay prepared and equipped with the armor we have already put on, the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet of the hope of salvation.
Summing up this last section:
Because Jesus is coming back, Christians should:
Be alert. (Vs 6)
Be sober, (Vs 6)
Put on the breastplate of faith and love. (Vs 8)
Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation (Vs 8)
Paul's encouraging conclusion to this thesis is stated clearly and simply.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing."
Jesus died to bring about our salvation. Whether we are talking about those Christians who have died, or those who are still living, all Christians will one day be with Him!
THEREFORE ... Because Jesus is coming back, be alert and sober. Be sure you are of the day and not of the night!
Note: All scripture quotations are from the NASB.
http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-1-the ... 3-5-22.htm
Because Jesus Is Coming Back ...
1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:22
In Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians, one of the significant issues dealt with is Jesus return. Much modern speculation is rampant about the possibility of Jesus imminent return. Is it important for us to know when Jesus will return? A careful study of I Thessalonians 4:13-5:22 will tell us what we really need to know about
when Jesus is coming. Paul writes:
1 Thessalonians 4:13 "But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words."
In these verses, Paul confidently affirms that there is a resurrection to come. Christians, unlike others who have no promise of an afterlife, should look forward to being with God after their physical death. Paul, in no uncertain terms declares that those who are dead in Christ will be raised from the dead! Death is not final!
Notice the phrase in verse 14 which says God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus, then the parallel in verse 16 which says, the dead in Christ shall rise first. There is no doubt that those saints which have died will partake of the resurrection. The evidence, the proof of this is found in the fact of Jesus' resurrection.
There is a great temptation to stop here and examine in greater detail, the state of the dead in Christ, and just exactly what will occur at Jesus' return, but that is not really Paul's purpose. Paul very clearly lets it be known that there is a cause and effect relationship at work in his words. Therefore comfort one another is indication to us that there should be great comfort in the confident assurance of Jesus resurrection and the very necessary inference that if God raised Jesus from the dead, God can do it again and raise others from the dead! Look at the development of Paul's hypothesis.
Paul is saying:
1. There is no doubt that Jesus was resurrected!
2. There is not doubt that what God has done once, he can do again!
3. When Jesus returns, God will raise the dead in Christ.
4. Those still living shall join them meeting Jesus.
5. We shall ever be with the Lord!
With Jesus resurrection as the proof and guarantee that there is a resurrection for us, we are to comfort each other. How many times do we find it necessary to comfort each other in our spiritual doubtings and weaknesses? Through it all, we need to be reminded of the concepts Paul sets forth here. Great spiritual strength can and should be derived from the assurance of Jesus resurrection. Jesus is raised! We will be raised! What great comfort! But these words merely set the stage for a further principle! With this for our foundation, Paul continues:
1 Thessalonians 5:1 "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that the day of the Lord will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
In these verses, Paul, again clearly and without question, says that no one knows when Jesus will return. He gives no hints about how to tell when Jesus will come back; in fact, indicates that it will be a surprise to everyone, even the faithful! When has anyone ever heard of a thief who called and warned his victim that he was going to burglarize their house on a particular day? It doesn't happen! Nor will men know when Jesus is to return. Because no one knows, many will not believe that he will ever return. Some look at the long time that has passed and conclude that He will never come. Others, look at the long time that has already passed and say it will be a longer time still until Jesus return. They are saying, "Peace and safety!" They are secure in their belief. Paul then points out that Jesus return will be sudden. It will be like the onset of a woman's labor pains, Jesus return will be sudden and climactic. Finally, he says there will be a universal awareness of Jesus' return. The doubters, will not escape!
In 5:1 through 5:5, Paul made the following points:
1. No one knows when the Lord will return.
2. His return will be a surprise to all, even the faithful.
3. Doubters and unbelievers will feel secure in their safety.
4. When he does come, it will be universal! Even the doubters and unbelievers will know of it.
Having demonstrated these points, an interesting observation is made! The faithful brethren, even though they do not know when Jesus will return, will not be taken by surprise! In verses 4 and 5 he says:
1 Thessalonians 5:4 "But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day should overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;"
Paul used two figures in verses 4 and 5 to make his point. These are the figures of "day" and "night." The idea is that during the day, good and constructive things are accomplished by the industrious, while, at night, men work that which is unseemly and evil. Remember the words of Jesus himself in Luke 12:42-46?
Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 "Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 "Truly I say to you, that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 "But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him, and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers."
So the faithful are characterized as being of "day" because they are busy for God and hence stay in a state or condition of preparedness. The unfaithful are characterized by night and darkness, because they are neither prepared to nor concerned about serving God.
If even the faithful do not know when Jesus will return, how can His return not be a surprise? The faithful expect his return momentarily, and are continually prepared for His return! The faithful cannot be caught unprepared, because the very fact of the uncertainty of when Jesus will return causes them to stay in a state of preparedness. The very uncertainty of when Jesus will return creates a sense of expectation and diligence. Like a child listening for Santa on Christmas Eve, the hope and joy keep him from sleeping. Jesus may return any moment! I cant wait! Come quickly Lord Jesus, come quickly! What a wonderful disposition to have!
Now we come to the reason for the discussion of Jesus' return! Because Jesus is coming back, we should take the following steps!
1 Thessalonians 5:6 "...so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation."
The first quality that should characterize the Christian who is expecting Jesus to return is his alertness. The Christian will be like the watchman of old who is ever alert to the approach of any, whether they be friend or foe. He is constantly watching for danger and always prepared to turn away any attack. This same alertness and
response to danger, keeps him in a state of preparedness to meet any threats. He will not be taken unawares by any evil, not because he has been warned, but because he is on his guard! By the same token, he will also be prepared for his Lords return.
The second thing that will characterize the Christian who is expecting Jesus to return is sobriety. This is in contrast to those who are drunken in verse 7. The one who is drunken has decided that how he behaves is not important; he wont be caught. Nothing is going to happen! The one who remains sober is determined to be prepared for any and all eventualities, whether they be good or bad. His mind is set on service to God.
Then we are told that we should stay prepared and equipped with the armor we have already put on, the breastplate of faith and love and the helmet of the hope of salvation.
Summing up this last section:
Because Jesus is coming back, Christians should:
Be alert. (Vs 6)
Be sober, (Vs 6)
Put on the breastplate of faith and love. (Vs 8)
Put on the helmet of the hope of salvation (Vs 8)
Paul's encouraging conclusion to this thesis is stated clearly and simply.
1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing."
Jesus died to bring about our salvation. Whether we are talking about those Christians who have died, or those who are still living, all Christians will one day be with Him!
THEREFORE ... Because Jesus is coming back, be alert and sober. Be sure you are of the day and not of the night!
Note: All scripture quotations are from the NASB.
http://www.bible.ca/ef/expository-1-the ... 3-5-22.htm
Drew
Member
- Jan 24, 2005
- 14,249
- 81
Agree, but in order to make sense of numerous other scriptures, many of which were in one of your earlier posts, Paul has to be speaking phenomenologically - and by this I mean that Paul must be speaking in terms of what it will be like for him as a subject as experience, not what is factually the case (as in from a 3rd person perspective).Lewis W said:
I can legitimately write: "To place my exhausted head on the pillow at midnight is to be with the singing birds and the sunshine streaming in my window at 7 AM". I can write this precisely because this how the period from midnight to 7 AM will be experienced by me.
Of course, we all know that factually, a 7 hour period has intervened.
I am convinced that this is how Paul is speaking when he penned this famous "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".
If Paul really believed that any signifcant aspect of his being went to heaven immediately when he died, he must have made a mistake when, in 1 Cor 15, he very clearly states that we are made alive only at the return of Christ. If you are going to argue that "being made alive" refers simply to wrapping in flesh an already fully conscious entity enjoying full communion with God already, then you should have radically redefined the nominal sense of what it means to be "alive".
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
Drew, are you being facetious here? Paul never wrote that and I don't feel that most common interpretation (actually paraphrase) is correct. In the name of Biblical accuracy, we should reevaluate this both grammatically and within it's context. I just don't read any immediacy in this verse. (i see you agree) I think this link does a good job reconciling many passages.
http://www.jba.gr/Articles/nkjv_jbafebmar98a.htm
excerpt:
As I had promised in the last issue the topic of life after death would be discussed in more articles. The reason is because there are some passages that being considered as controversial require particular attention and examination. This examination will start from this issue with II Corinthians 5:6-8 and will be continued in the next issues as well.
Starting therefore from II Corinthians 5:6-8, we read:
"Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, while we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
For many people what the phrase "to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord", means is that when one dies is immediately with the Lord. However, a careful reading shows that this is not what the passage says. Really, what it says is that "WE ARE WILLING to be absent from the body, AND PRESENT WITH THE LORD". The phrase "we are willing" shows that the passage states a will, a wish, which is not a wish to die but a wish "to be absent from the body and present with Lord". Though a full and clear picture of what this phrase means will be possible only after the examination of its context, we can from the outset preclude that it could ever mean that when one dies he is immediately with the Lord for in a case like this, there would be a stark contradiction with I Thessalonians 4:15-17...
handy
Member
- Jun 21, 2007
- 10,028
- 99
And [the thief] was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom." And He said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:43
OK, here is Handy stepping out into the realm of pure speculation. Let's just call it thinking outside of the box, or outside the realm of conventional thinking:
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God. Revelations 2:7
So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:24
The Garden of Eden was never destroyed. I believe that it still exists and that it is still protected by cherubim. I also believe that it is the place that we go to when we die. Whether or not it is actually here on this earth is immaterial. Perhaps it is located outside of the physical earth, perhaps it sits exactly where it has always sat and is supernaturally protected from discovery. I believe that our souls reside there and have full knowledge of who we are and what happens to us. The reason why I believe this is because of Revelations 6:9-10 which speaks of the martyrs who are crying out for justice. They are descibed as being underneath the altar. Now, I find it hard to think of a bunch of souls sitting under an alter like my kids sit under the kitchen table during hide-and-seek. It makes much more sense to me that 'underneath the altar' means that they are not in heaven where the altar is, but below it.
I think that too many people don't read Revelations correctly. Eschatology is such a hot button topic that too many times people only read Revelations to try to connect dots as far as the Second Coming is concerned. Revelations actually gives us a very clear view into heaven. And, it's clear that mankind has conscience interaction with heaven.
If we consider that men go to the Garden of Eden when they die, then we resolve any conflict with the verses that state that men are not yet asended to heaven. We can also resolve what Paul meant by "Absent from the body, present with the Lord" because we know from Luke 23 that the Lord interacts with those in Paradise.
And then, when all has been accomplished, the old earth will pass away and a new earth will be established. This new earth, with a new Jerusalem apparently being on the location of the Garden, will be our final destination. I don't believe that we will spend eternity in heaven, but on the new earth however free to interact with heaven. Much like it was all created to be in the first place.
Just my thoughts. This and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee in Seattle.
OK, here is Handy stepping out into the realm of pure speculation. Let's just call it thinking outside of the box, or outside the realm of conventional thinking:
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the Paradise of God. Revelations 2:7
So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim, and the flaming sword which turned every direction, to guard the way to the tree of life. Genesis 3:24
The Garden of Eden was never destroyed. I believe that it still exists and that it is still protected by cherubim. I also believe that it is the place that we go to when we die. Whether or not it is actually here on this earth is immaterial. Perhaps it is located outside of the physical earth, perhaps it sits exactly where it has always sat and is supernaturally protected from discovery. I believe that our souls reside there and have full knowledge of who we are and what happens to us. The reason why I believe this is because of Revelations 6:9-10 which speaks of the martyrs who are crying out for justice. They are descibed as being underneath the altar. Now, I find it hard to think of a bunch of souls sitting under an alter like my kids sit under the kitchen table during hide-and-seek. It makes much more sense to me that 'underneath the altar' means that they are not in heaven where the altar is, but below it.
I think that too many people don't read Revelations correctly. Eschatology is such a hot button topic that too many times people only read Revelations to try to connect dots as far as the Second Coming is concerned. Revelations actually gives us a very clear view into heaven. And, it's clear that mankind has conscience interaction with heaven.
If we consider that men go to the Garden of Eden when they die, then we resolve any conflict with the verses that state that men are not yet asended to heaven. We can also resolve what Paul meant by "Absent from the body, present with the Lord" because we know from Luke 23 that the Lord interacts with those in Paradise.
And then, when all has been accomplished, the old earth will pass away and a new earth will be established. This new earth, with a new Jerusalem apparently being on the location of the Garden, will be our final destination. I don't believe that we will spend eternity in heaven, but on the new earth however free to interact with heaven. Much like it was all created to be in the first place.
Just my thoughts. This and $5.00 will get you a cup of coffee in Seattle.
Vic C.
Member
- Mar 16, 2003
- 18,230
- 4
No handy, that was actually pretty good... and save your $5.00; the latest taste test shows McDonald's new premium blend to be #1 and much cheaper than that "other" place. :-D
Your analogy of below the alter as not being in Heaven, but on earth or even below is right on, IMO. In the interest of Biblical accuracy once again, ;-) Rev 6:9 says:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
not the martyrs, but their souls. ;-) In the days of alter sacrifices of animals, their blood was to run down the sides and legs of the alter to where?... the ground. Old Hebrew way of thinking says the life is in the blood. So now we have some more dots to connect. 8-) Blood, soul, life... hmm.
Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Your analogy of below the alter as not being in Heaven, but on earth or even below is right on, IMO. In the interest of Biblical accuracy once again, ;-) Rev 6:9 says:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
not the martyrs, but their souls. ;-) In the days of alter sacrifices of animals, their blood was to run down the sides and legs of the alter to where?... the ground. Old Hebrew way of thinking says the life is in the blood. So now we have some more dots to connect. 8-) Blood, soul, life... hmm.
Genesis 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.