The Death Penalty

[Lewis]

I posted this in current events, but I am reposting this because I want to ask you all something. Do you think that these people below should get the death penalty ? Even the New Testament supports the death penalty. I got to tell you, I think they should.

CINCINNATI, Ohio (AP) -- The foster parents of a disabled 3-year-old boy wrapped him like a cocoon and left him for two days in a closet, where he died while they attended a family reunion, a prosecutor said.

The couple made several attempts to burn Marcus Fiesel's body and concocted an elaborate sham to cover up the boy's death, Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters said Tuesday.

"Marcus was wrapped in a blanket and wrapped in tape with his arms behind him -- and this was not the first time," Deters said in announcing additional indictments against Liz and David Carroll Jr.

A grand jury indicted the couple Monday on charges of involuntary manslaughter and child endangerment, and David Carroll, 35, on a charge of gross abuse of a corpse.

Tuesday's indictments included two counts each of inducing panic and one count each of making false alarms. Liz Carroll, 30, also was indicted on two counts of perjury for her testimony Monday to a grand jury, Deters said.

The Carrolls are scheduled for arraignment Wednesday; they remain jailed and information on their attorneys wasn't available.

Deters said the Carrolls left Marcus in the closet on August 4 when they went to a family reunion in Kentucky, and the boy was dead when they returned two days later.

A week later, Liz Carroll claimed Marcus wandered away from her at a suburban park, authorities said. Hundreds of volunteers joined authorities in the search for several days.

Authorities called off the official search on August 19. Liz Carroll pleaded for help finding Marcus at a news conference August 22 -- about the same time she and her husband were disposing of his body in a remote area of Brown County, Deters said.

"They went back repeatedly to burn his body -- two or three times," Deters said.

Authorities believe they have found the place where the body was burned, and they have brought back bags of evidence from the scene, Deters said.

He said the material will undergo DNA testing.

 

[Quath]

I see it differently. I think the death penality would be too kind to these parents. Life in jail without parole would be a huch harsher punishment. They would have to live every day with the knowledge that they are in prison becaue of their horrible actions. If they died, then it is all over and they have no more concerns.

 

[Lewis]

"Marcus was wrapped in a blanket and wrapped in tape with his arms behind him -- and this was not the first time," Deters said in announcing additional indictments against Liz and David Carroll Jr.

The foster parents of a disabled 3-year-old boy wrapped him like a cocoon and left him for two days in a closet, where he died while they attended a family reunion, a prosecutor said.

This dumb stuff ust makes my blood boil. Bring the Whipping Post back.

 

[Poke]

The two are guilty of child abuse and manslaughter, not murder. It might even be argued that the difficulty of raising a disabled child is a mitigating factor. I'm not a aware of any state allowing the death penalty for anything other than murder.

This is a foster child. Non-biological parents rarely have the same connection with children as do the biological parents. So, these are always higher risk situations. A case worker is suppose to visit the child weekly. And, there's probably good evidence, that should have been discovered, that that the foster parents were unfit to be foster parents.

I support a broad expansion of the death penalty, mostly to repeat offenders of a number of violent crimes. But, I don't support the death penalty here because it's not murder and I assume they're not repeat offenders. Nor do I support locking anyone up for life (except when the state is too immoral to execute people who should be executed).

These people should be locked up for about 20 years, and offered early release if they agree to be fixed. And, they should be banned from being alone with children for the test of their lives.

 

[Poke]

This dumb stuff ust makes my blood boil. Bring the Whipping Post back.

I'm all for the whipping post, in this case.

 

[Drew]

I do not think that Christians should support the "whipping post". I am convinced that the desire for this and related forms of punishment springs from a desire to satisfy a thirst for what is essentially revenge. I think Jesus calls out of this way of living. Do I empathize with the desire to use the whipping post? Of course I do - but this is because I have not achieved the Christlike character which does not seek vengeance but rather responds always with love. And unless one can make a case that delivering a whipping is really in the best interests of the person being punished, then it is really not an act of love.

I think its arguable that the wish for the death penalty is largely an American value, not a Christian one. I believe (I could be wrong here, I admit) that many Christians from other countries do not share this pro death-penalty stance. It is easy to confuse cultural values with true Christian values and I suspect that this is what is happening here.

So to answer the OP, I do not think any of these people should be given the death penalty. Putting someone to death is not an act of love (unless perhaps they are suffering in great pain and they are sick and near death anyway - and even this is debatable). So for this reason, I think it should never be used.

Appropriate alternatives exist to keep society protected - lock these people up for the rest of their lives, perhaps. They will at least have the chance to accept the redemption offered at the Cross.

 

[lovely]

This case is heartbreaking to me. This child needed love. I can't even imagine what those two days alone, and bound, must have been like for him. And it happened before too! He couldn't have understood why these people would do this to him. It's just horrific, too horrific. What was going through the minds of these people? Why not a babysitter? Even if they cared nothing for the little guy, why risk their own freedom by doing something so stupid, and cruel? This crime is far worse than just murder...it was slow torture that led to murder, and then mutilation. How could these people be foster parents? Why, if the child was such trouble for them, would they agree to take him on in the first place? I wonder if he received any love at all in his short life. I weep for this baby. I disagree with the charges completely.

I know it is for us to forgive, and I have asked the Lord to help me forgive these two people, but justice must still be carried out. Crimes against children should carry a heavier penalty, imo. I read this to my mother-in-law, and she said that the parents should be bound in the exact same manner for several days before any sentence is carried out. I pray that they meet Christ whatever happens, and that they do good somehow with whatever time they have left no matter where they spend it.

People have an opportunity to practice true religion, and it is a blessing when they do. They could have helped an orphan, but they tortured him instead. God can forgive this, however, that is how loving, and merciful, He is. The Lord bless all of you.

 

[ttg]

I read the first couple of sentences of that news article and had to stop. Stories like that are too heartbreaking for me.

But I don't the govt. has any business in handing out a death penalty. History shows that they have screwed it up and there is no reason to think they won't stop screwing it up.

Life in prison with no possibility of parole will have to do.

 

[thessalonian]

I see it differently. I think the death penality would be too kind to these parents. Life in jail without parole would be a huch harsher punishment. They would have to live every day with the knowledge that they are in prison becaue of their horrible actions. If they died, then it is all over and they have no more concerns.

None other than the eternal fires of hell. But that's hardly worth mentioning. :-?

 

[Poke]

I do not think that Christians should support the "whipping post". I am convinced that the desire for this and related forms of punishment springs from a desire to satisfy a thirst for what is essentially revenge.

I want punishment that serves as a deterrent. I want everyone who might lock a child in a closet to think about what will result if they're found out.

I think its arguable that the wish for the death penalty is largely an American value, not a Christian one.

The Death Penalty is God's preferred method of criminal punishment. This is spelled out in the OT and affirmed in the NT.

Putting someone to death is not an act of love (unless perhaps they are suffering in great pain and they are sick and near death anyway - and even this is debatable). So for this reason, I think it should never be used.

The fatal flaw in your reasoning is that it does not include the victim and potential victims. Opposition to punishment is hatred of the innocent.

Appropriate alternatives exist to keep society protected - lock these people up for the rest of their lives, perhaps.

I think locking someone up for life is cruel. Lifers don't get comfy prisons. They're stuck in solitary isolation 23-hours/day in a room little bigger than a closet, with zero privacy. Lifers also have nothing to lose by doing anything, so they are extremely dangerous to be near. In spite of their restrictions, some of them still manage to torment and kill others. And, for all this, I doubt it has the deterrent value of executions.

 

[Vic C.]

I'm all for the whipping post, in this case.

Oh, great song!


:

 

[Lewis]

I'm all for the whipping post, in this case.

Oh, great song!


:

Yes The Allman Brothers Vic. I support the death penalty for certain cases. The Bible supports it, even the New Testament, the 13th chapter of Romans. If you support the death penalty, that does not mean that you are not a Christian. Because guess what! it is Biblical

 

[Nikki]

The two are guilty of child abuse and manslaughter, not murder. It might even be argued that the difficulty of raising a disabled child is a mitigating factor. I'm not a aware of any state allowing the death penalty for anything other than murder.

This is a foster child. Non-biological parents rarely have the same connection with children as do the biological parents. So, these are always higher risk situations. A case worker is suppose to visit the child weekly. And, there's probably good evidence, that should have been discovered, that that the foster parents were unfit to be foster parents.

I support a broad expansion of the death penalty, mostly to repeat offenders of a number of violent crimes. But, I don't support the death penalty here because it's not murder and I assume they're not repeat offenders. Nor do I support locking anyone up for life (except when the state is too immoral to execute people who should be executed).

These people should be locked up for about 20 years, and offered early release if they agree to be fixed. And, they should be banned from being alone with children for the test of their lives.

Not murder? WhatEVER. I'm not even going to argue with you on that because it WAS murder.

Maybe all these parents need is a time out and then a hug. :roll:

 

[Nikki]

... I support the death penalty for certain cases. The Bible supports it, even the New Testament, the 13th chapter of Romans. If you support the death penalty, that does not mean that you are not a Christian. Because guess what! it is Biblical

But Lewis, a time out would work just fine!

 

[Lewis]

The two are guilty of child abuse and manslaughter, not murder. It might even be argued that the difficulty of raising a disabled child is a mitigating factor. I'm not a aware of any state allowing the death penalty for anything other than murder.

This is a foster child. Non-biological parents rarely have the same connection with children as do the biological parents. So, these are always higher risk situations. A case worker is suppose to visit the child weekly. And, there's probably good evidence, that should have been discovered, that that the foster parents were unfit to be foster parents.

I support a broad expansion of the death penalty, mostly to repeat offenders of a number of violent crimes. But, I don't support the death penalty here because it's not murder and I assume they're not repeat offenders. Nor do I support locking anyone up for life (except when the state is too immoral to execute people who should be executed).

These people should be locked up for about 20 years, and offered early release if they agree to be fixed. And, they should be banned from being alone with children for the test of their lives.

!!!HUH!!!

 

[Poke]

Not murder? WhatEVER.

Murder is the premeditated killing of someone. This couple did not intend to kill the child. That makes it manslaughter.

 

[Nikki]

Wrong.

Felony murder is a rule current in some common law countries that broadens the crime of murder in two ways. First, when a victim dies accidentally or without specific intent in the course of an applicable felony, it increases what might have been manslaughter (or even a simple tort) to murder.

In the United States, felony murder is generally first-degree murder, and often a capital offense. When the government seeks to impose the death penalty on someone convicted of felony murder, the Eighth Amendment imposes additional limitations on the state's power to do so. The death penalty may not be imposed if the defendant is merely a minor participant and did not actually kill or intend to kill. However, the death penalty may be imposed if the defendant is a major participant in the underlying felony and exhibits extreme indifference to human life.

 

[Lewis]

Not murder? WhatEVER.

Murder is the premeditated killing of someone. This couple did not intend to kill the child. That makes it manslaughter.

Tied up with his hands behind his back, and in a closet for 2 days, and he was only 3 years old. What do you think they were trying to do ? You mean to tell me that they were so stupid that they did not know that this was dangerous for this baby ? Them idiots knew good and well something could happen to this baby. And how do you think that baby was feeling. You can say what you want but they are the cause of his death. How would they feel if that was done to them ? Wait! I can answer that, no they would not like it. But I tell you this they intentionally locked this baby in a closet tied up, knowing that something could go wrong, and it did. And they are adults, they killed this baby. I find it hard to believe that they did not know that this baby could die.

 

[Nikki]

Not murder? WhatEVER.

Murder is the premeditated killing of someone. This couple did not intend to kill the child. That makes it manslaughter.

Tied up with his hands behind his back, and in a closet for 2 days, and he was only 3 years old. What do you think they were trying to do ? You mean to tell me that they were so stupid that they did not know that this was dangerous for this baby ? Them idiots knew good and well something could happen to this baby. And how do you think that baby was feeling. You can say what you want but they are the cause of his death. How would they feel if that was done to them ? Wait! I can answer that, no they would not like it. But I tell you this they intentionally locked this baby in a closet tied up, knowing that something could go wrong, and it did. And they are adults, they killed this baby. I find it hard to believe that they did not know that this baby could die.

They are murderers and hopefully they'll be judged as that.