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The debate on eternal hell fire

precepts

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The debate on eternal hell fire is an interesting one because both sides of the debate quotes scripture. What's the solution, or whats the problem.

It seems illogical to form a conclusion based on some scripture and not all. That's the problem?

Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.

Isa 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together.

Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Once again I ask the question how does immortality put on mortality?

Regardless of the question, the answer is "verse so and so says so and so," regardless of the fact.

The fact is if God said we are eternal, that doesn't mean that we're without death, but that we all will recieve everlasting life, some to everlasting shame and contempt.

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.
Which correlates with Revelation's 2nd resurrection.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works

Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
How does immortality put on mortality? They don't!

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The beast and false prophet were burning for the 1,000 yr, and are still there after the 1,000 yrs.



Don't be fooled. We are gods! The question is where will you spend eternity!

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.



Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
What does it mean when "death" is thrown in the lake of fire? Does that mean that "death" will be no more? Is this the reversal of death brought in the world by mankind's fall from grace?
 
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No time to mount a defence right now, but I have come to abandon the "eternal hell" position (which I held for > 20 years). I have come to believe that the lost will be annihilated, and not suffer eternal torment.
 
Precepts:

I think you very well know the Genesis story. So don't fool yourself. It was the serpent that said, "You will not die!" and from there came the crooked doctrine of an "immortal soul" whether one is immortal in heaven or hell.

The problem with "suffering for eternity in hell" is that people who embrace that doctrine basically believe a person is immortal and will never die (like God). But immortality (after sinning) is only conditional on God's grace to grant it.

I even heard a fellow parishioner state the Freudian slip of saying "We all have eternal life. It question is where are you going to spend it?"

He was as much as admitting nobody ever dies, even though the bible says that the soul that sins will DIE. He called eternal punishment "Life", albeit a miserable one. But the bible teaches being cast in the lake of fire, and then experiencing the second DEATH (because even wicked people will be resurrected to life again).

However, being exterminated in a fire like that is "eternal punishment" and "eternal fire" because the effects and judgment of which is eternal.

I once burned a book that I thought was crooked in doctrine. I jokingly (but accurately) claimed that it was burned in eternal fire. I dare anyone to find that annihilated book in that eternal fire today. It was burned for eternity --- it no longer exists. It perished (John 3:16)
 
Are their 2 willing participants in this 1x1 Debate? It looks like the OP didn't have an arrangement made with another member for a debate but was throwing it out there to take comers. If someone desires to take the opposite stance, we will permit his posts in the thread and delete any from a third party.

Whenever 2 members decide to debate (prior to the debates starting), either one should let it be known either by PM to a mod or stating the two names in the beginning of the OP.
 
I'd find the idea that God could allow you to burn in hell for all eternity terrifying. How could you love a God like that? I'd be too afraid of messing up to ever relax if I went to heaven.
 
No I'm not willing to debate it. I did not realize he wanted one-on-one. Not that I can't debate it, but I am already in one other debate and I don't feel I have the time right now. Certainly both views seem to have their scripture support, but I don't only go by what scripture appears to say, but also the very nature and spiritual cause-and-effect understanding as well (i.e. all scripture has to make some sort of cosmic sense and scheme and not stand alone to support a certain doctrine).

As for me, I used to believe in eternal torment and simply labeled it the "second death", but then when I discovered scripture regarding the fallen nature of man, considered his mortality, etc etc and fit all the pieces together in addition to scripture that just speaks about hell, I abandoned that eternal torment doctrine. In other words, most who support eternal torment will just cite scripture about the seemingly everlasting state of hell, and not the other subjects that relate.
 
I believe hell is the suffering we go through as a natural consequence of our sin. When we stop sinning the suffering dissipates.
 
I am willing to participate. I do however have some continuing computer problems and my pc may at times be out of order. However, I uderstand one does not have to reply immediately.
 
I believe in eternal hell fire but have leanings towards annihilation. There really are some difficulties with all positions, which may be compounded by one's view of the human soul.
 
Precepts:

I think you very well know the Genesis story. So don't fool yourself. It was the serpent that said, "You will not die!" and from there came the crooked doctrine of an "immortal soul" whether one is immortal in heaven or hell.
Where can I find "the doctrine of an immortal soul" in the bible?
Precept's
Once again I ask the question how does immortality put on mortality?

Regardless of the question, the answer is "verse so and so says so and so," regardless of the fact.

The fact is if God said we are eternal, that doesn't mean that we're without death, but that we all will recieve everlasting life, some to everlasting shame and contempt.
I think we see who's playing the role of the serpent here.


The problem with "suffering for eternity in hell" is that people who embrace that doctrine basically believe a person is immortal and will never die (like God). But immortality (after sinning) is only conditional on God's grace to grant it.
Who are you trying to fool? You're purposely ignoring the facts.

I even heard a fellow parishioner state the Freudian slip of saying "We all have eternal life. It question is where are you going to spend it?"

He was as much as admitting nobody ever dies, even though the bible says that the soul that sins will DIE.
You're so vain! Blah blah blah blah ........

He called eternal punishment "Life", albeit a miserable one. But the bible teaches being cast in the lake of fire, and then experiencing the second DEATH (because even wicked people will be resurrected to life again).

However, being exterminated in a fire like that is "eternal punishment" and "eternal fire" because the effects and judgment of which is eternal.

I once burned a book that I thought was crooked in doctrine. I jokingly (but accurately) claimed that it was burned in eternal fire. I dare anyone to find that annihilated book in that eternal fire today. It was burned for eternity --- it no longer exists. It perished (John 3:16)
Time is short! Blah blah blah ...........
 
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Are their 2 willing participants in this 1x1 Debate? It looks like the OP didn't have an arrangement made with another member for a debate but was throwing it out there to take comers. If someone desires to take the opposite stance, we will permit his posts in the thread and delete any from a third party.

Whenever 2 members decide to debate (prior to the debates starting), either one should let it be known either by PM to a mod or stating the two names in the beginning of the OP.
Maybe you could look into why I'm not recieving my email messages when I have it set to instant email.
 
I am willing to participate. I do however have some continuing computer problems and my pc may at times be out of order. However, I uderstand one does not have to reply immediately.

Well, unless you have hardware problems, I can tell you don't have Linux. :lol

Get rid of the Microsnooze and your problems (and viruses) will disappear overnight--- your computer will thank you for it.
 
Many complex issues arise over the teaching of hell. In the OT hell was either the grave or a state of mind.

As we know most pagan religions already had the concepts or hell being eternal torture, levels, etc., no doubt many of these were later embraced into how Christians viewed hell. The teachings about hell evolved from the early church til the Roman Church where hell became a very fearful place of torture, men like Dante really stirred the issue. It became a tool to control the masses.

I also was a firm eternal torture believer for many years, through much study of scripture, history, church politics, I found it to be a doctrine stolen from the pagan and verses redefined to imply such.

Hell is the grave. We confuse words like eternal, the original word being aion, meaning an age or period. Most of use still you forever as correct slang, such as when my son says "it will take forever to clean up my room.
 
Many complex issues arise over the teaching of hell. In the OT hell was either the grave or a state of mind.

As we know most pagan religions already had the concepts or hell being eternal torture, levels, etc., no doubt many of these were later embraced into how Christians viewed hell. The teachings about hell evolved from the early church til the Roman Church where hell became a very fearful place of torture, men like Dante really stirred the issue. It became a tool to control the masses.

I also was a firm eternal torture believer for many years, through much study of scripture, history, church politics, I found it to be a doctrine stolen from the pagan and verses redefined to imply such.

Hell is the grave. We confuse words like eternal, the original word being aion, meaning an age or period. Most of use still you forever as correct slang, such as when my son says "it will take forever to clean up my room.

What you stated is true, Ace. I was the same way, until I realized that "eternal torment" was something borrowed from the pagans just like Christmas and Easter. Any "God" who has you cowering in fear is not a true God at all. And some of the same people who profess to believe in that almighty God are they themselves sick in the congregations without healings. Well, I say if that God can't heal them, he doesn't have the power to send anyone to hell, either. :lol :lol :lol (for emphasis)
 
As we know most pagan religions already had the concepts or hell being eternal torture, levels, etc., no doubt many of these were later embraced into how Christians viewed hell.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Ace. Which pagan religions are you refering to here? Have you got some literature or scripture you can point me towards? I believe the concept of both eternal life and eternal punishment were alluded to in the OT. Both evolved in the Jewish literature of the deuterocanonical years-and both were fleshed out in the NT.

Edited to add: Just for the record-I believe in an eternal reward for the righteous and an eternal punishment for the unrighteous.
I'm online and offline pretty irregularly but I look forward to your thoughts, Westtexas
 
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this Ace. Which pagan religions are you refering to here? Have you got some literature or scripture you can point me towards? I believe the concept of both eternal life and eternal punishment were alluded to in the OT. Both evolved in the Jewish literature of the deuterocanonical years-and both were fleshed out in the NT.

Edited to add: Just for the record-I believe in an eternal reward for the righteous and an eternal punishment for the unrighteous.
I'm online and offline pretty irregularly but I look forward to your thoughts, Westtexas

Well, it's a long and complex study, but easily searched on the net. I wouldn't say that the concepts of Jewish beliefs in hell and the afterlife were fleshed out in the NT era. The jews hardly believe christian concepts about hell from the NT. Obvious as in most things the jews beliefs evolved and even today jews don't have one settled view on the afterlife.

The early church hardly believed in hell, the majority didn't teach it. After the death of Christ and for the next couple of hundred years 4 of the 6 large universities didn't teach or believe in a eternal hell, one taught a form of annihilation, the other in Egypt did teach eternal torture, but was started by a former Pagan leader with much pagan influence. However, the ones closest to Jerusalem did not teach in for almost 350 years, nor was eternal hell included in the churches earliest creeds. In all the writings we have from the apostle Paul he never mentions or teaches about eternal hell or torture and he had great influence on the early gentile church.

Our english word hell probably comess from "Hel", who was the Goddess of the dead in Germanic Mythology. The greek NT "Gehenna" was the dump where they basically burnt all the trash, these fires were always lit, people had jobs to keep these fires lit 24/7 year after year. The NT says the "fires of Gehenna burned forever", but we know these fires have long gone out. Again, "forever" is the english word for the greek word "aion" that meant for "an age"in the NT. In the OT, in the Hebrew it was sheol and simply meant the grave or place of the dead
You also have to remember the Jews often were influenced by much pagan mythology, even through the OT.

Pagan mythology is easily studied on the net, for me it's fairly easy to see the many connections on how pagan beliefs of the afterlife later connected with Christianity. Dante is probably most famous for doing this and stirred up quite a fervor and many aspects of the church sort of ran with his idea's on hell, I believe it had 9 levels of punishment, cruel torture, ect... It really scared the masses of believers and non believers alike and the more political church then saw in had great effect in conversion and controlling the masses. The many "chick tracks" more fundy denominations use basically copy Dante's vision of eternal torture.
 
As for me I still accept what the scriptures teach about hell.
 
I will add to the above, if the scriptures are right, I've lost nothing and gained all. If the scriptures are wrong, I've lost nothing. Thank you Lord, its easier to believe than not to believe.
 
The early church hardly believed in hell, the majority didn't teach it. After the death of Christ and for the next couple of hundred years 4 of the 6 large universities didn't teach or believe in a eternal hell, one taught a form of annihilation, the other in Egypt did teach eternal torture, but was started by a former Pagan leader with much pagan influence. However, the ones closest to Jerusalem did not teach in for almost 350 years,
I disagree. Let me throw out a few for discussion. Ignatius of Antioch-who was a student of the apostle John, taught an eternal punishment. Polycarp was a student of the apostle John. The Martyrdom of Polycarp teaches an eternal punishment. Irenaeus, who was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of the apostle John also teaches an eternal punishment. Clement of Rome teaches an eternal punishment. There are many others, I only listed a few. You'll have to forgive me, I took the lazy way out and didn't look up references or letters by these early Christians but I'll be glad to quote the letters should you so desire. All of these writings are much earlier than the 350 yrs that you state and all were directly influenced by those closest to our Lord.
Any thoughts? Westtexas
 
I didn't say there wasn't those that existed in the early church that didn't believe in eternal hell, but the majority of the early church based on the teachings of the major early universities didn't believe teach or believe in eternal hell, including the theology schools of Alexandria, Cesarea, Antioch, and Edessa. Only one leading theology school advocated Eternal Hell ,the Latin Church of North Africa ran by Tertullian " an avowed former pagan" who considered every one that disagreed with him would go to hell and that one day he would laugh from heaven at them.

Here a list of the majority of church leaders, theology scholars, etc..that taught in these schools and preached in the areas near.

(" Pantaenus: Clement of Alexandria: Origen; Athanasius; Didymus the Blind; Macarius of Egypt; Gregory Thaumaturgus; Ambrose; Ephraim; John Chrysostum; Gregory of Nyssa; Gregory of Nazianzus; Jerome of Bethlehem; Evangrius; Titus of Bastra; Asterius of Amasea; Cyril; Methodius of Tyre; Pamphilius Eusibius; Hillary of Poitiers; Victorinus; Macrina the Younger; Dionysius the Areopagite; John Cassian; Proclus of Constantinople; Peter Chrysologus; Diodorus of Tarsus; Stephen bar Sudaili."

We have no idea who wrote "The Martyrdom of Polycarp" and how it reflects his true views, it is a recorded story and many feel it was written in the 3rd century. Still, I'm sure it has great truths and much is accurate to his beliefs, but when you hand down stories... Most of the ones you listed had strong pagan upbringings and connections are often obvious. I certainly admit some of those I listed views changed and evolved, such as Clement who had tendency to blend Greek and Christian philosophies. Irenaeus believed all unbaptized infants went to hell as did Augustine, doubt he got that from John, but obvious the Catholic church changed somewhat on that, but where infant baptism stems from.

Most important was prevalent teaching in the Alexandrine church from the apostles death until about 400AD and in this connection it may be repeated that the Catechetical school in Alexandria was taught by "Anaxagoras, Pantænus, Origen, Clement, Heraclas, Dionysius, Pierius, Theognostus, Peter Martyr, Arius and Didymus", all were universalist and saw the lake of fire as purifying, but why that subject isn't allowed for open debate here, we can say they clearly didn't believe in everlasting punishment..


Obvious in both camps of the early church there were other sects that believed in purgatory, annihilation, universalism, hell, etc..various forms of judgments and many on both side that had conflicting views with each other, but the overwhelming evidence is the majority of the early church closest to Jerusalem didn't adhere to a place of everlasting punishment as it wasn't taught in the 4 largest universities, nor was it included in the earliest church creeds or heretical decrees. However, with all these leaders, regardless of their beliefs, they had no bible, there was still much debate on which letters by the apostles were authentic more than inspired, they used many other resources than we accept today and they all wrote numerous epistles themselves that had great effect in the area and often conflict arose.

There was no doubt that most believed in God's judgments, but as the church grew and became more dividied and political, it went from a God of judgments through a process of "fire" not taken as literal, but as purifying to a God of cruel torture with literal fire and other tortures.

One must study the historical church as it evolved from Greek to Latin, how the early christians acted, their beliefs and rituals and how they changed. Augustine was the first church father to really promote eternal torture, hated the Greek and studied mostly in Latin. When the power of the church shifted from the Greek fathers (Alexandrian) to the Latin, the earlier views were redefined to suit the new politcal power of the church and the need to control and convert the masses and the church entered the "dark age" period

As the church became political, these fears were used and eternal torture became a main latin doctrine, worse, the church now became agents of torture themselves and this continued for generations to come. Many Popes and councils during this period reasoned that if God pusnishes with eternal torture, his followers may certainly use torture against God's opponents on earth. Andrew White a more secular historian sums it up pretty well.


"The natural argument developed in hundreds of pulpits was this: If the All-wise God punishes his creatures with tortures infinite in cruelty and duration, why should not his ministers, as far as they can, imitate him."

Just look what the Catholic Bloody Queen Mary stated.

"As the souls of heretics are to be forever burning in hell," she decreed, "there can be nothing more proper than for me to imitate the Divine vengeance by burning them on earth."

Sadly we know as the church embraced a God of torture, church history became cruel and violent using torture for hundreds of years, the early church certainly wasn't like that. The majority of Kings, Queens, Popes, Priest and councils wrote numerous decrees how they were allowed to torture, burn, kill, etc..following God's example. Worse, as Christians divided , they had no problem torturing each other as was done often by Protestants and Catholics, then Anglican, then...and on and on.....


It is a long complex difficult debate, but very interesting nonetheless.



 
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