The demands for proof

[Not_Now.Soon]

This is a spill over topic from a different conversation, but worth some consideration and if anyone has any suggestions, some input too.

When confronted with a demand for proof that your faith is valid, either by asking for proof of God, evidance that Christianity (faith in Jesus) is the right religion, or that you yourself are a worth while Christian and asked for proof/evidance that you have faith and follow God; when asked or demanded any of these how do you respond?

For me, the one I've encountered the most is demands of proof that God exists. Usually a demand made by an atheist who is trying to shut up a Christian because they don't want to hear it any more, or start a fight or debate with Christians. At least those are my experiences with the question. But I hope there are others who ask because they really are searching, as opposed to because they use the topic of proof as a trump card to kill any spiritual conversations. Or because they find it intresting or entertaining to ask for proof, but have already come to their own conclusions.

And because of this one of my reactions to the demand for proof is skeptism if they really want to know. After all, the proof I have is from my life and thus personal to me. It's not a philosophy or an argument that can be dragged through the mud in a debate and end up not harming my feelings. So if a person really wants to know I'll share. If I find that I doubt that they are sincere, I have in the past told some people that if they demand proof, then the burden to find it is theirs not the believers, because they have the desire to know it. Or I have reacted that life is full of evidance of God, how can anyone be blind to it, and scolded the person that they were lazy to not look for themselves.

That said those are my experiences with the question. If your in a conversation with mixed religions, proof of God isn't the issue, proof of Christianity can be the demand. Or in the audience of fellow Christians and the conversation has gone south, the demand to prove your faith, or that you are a genuine Christian.

Since these are all demands and challenges to proof, and because I don't think reacting in a negitive or angry tone should be our response like I have in my examples above, does anyone have some insight on handling these situtions, or insight that might either relieve the tension for proof or answer the demands for proof?

 

[reba]

There comes a time when shaking the dust off and moving on is the Biblical thing to do... as told by Matt, Mark and Luke

Mat_10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Luk_9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Much of the research I have done or the things I have learned I was pushed to learn because of inquiries or opposition from nonbelievers. The best critic is someone opposed to something, right? I will try to find some resources and get with answering their question or challenges, as well as my own thoughts and perspective. To show that it can be done, and because it's something I need to improve my knowledge on anyway. Usually at some point I find it is best to stop the conversation, if the other party is not really making it a mutual thing. I will thank them for challenging me because the more I am challenged the more I learn, and move on.

 

[JohnDB]

Because of the logic.

All of the other religions in the world lack credible logic. (Despite the many illogical things Christians do with the Gospel)

There's only one thing that God could possibly want of mine...especially since He made me and this Universe:...my heart.

My free will exercise to love him for all I'm worth has got to be the thing.

My religious behavior isn't necessary unless it's for me....and I need it.

All other religions want more. They lack historical accuracy. They lack positives. Faith is what credits us with righteousness. Not anything else. The other things that go with faith are not necessarily required.

Altruistic in practice but performed because of Love FOR God.
Definitely different than everyone else.

Atheism is a religion I can't find enough faith for....
Throw all the elements of the periodic table into a cosmic blender and out pops ONE Universe with ONE solar system that has ONE planet that has life. Yeah....I'd easier believe a tornado hit a warehouse district and started spitting out complete homes with sodded lawns and sprinkler systems.

 

[evenifigoalone]

Once got told by an internet tough guy that I was stupid (because, so their hypothesis went, "stupidity is a job requirement for Christianity"), but not as stupid as most. Progress, I guess?

 

[dianegcook]

I mostly tell them,
That they believe there is no God,
I believe in God,
Both are beliefs,
Why go to the grave with no hope?

They do not have proof that there isn't any. Lol
Also the history in the Bible is true, prophecy had been fulfilled and so forth.

As Reba mentioned, shake the dust off your feet.

 

[JohnDB]

Also we have fewer copies of other literature from the same time period as the New Testament was written.... But no one seems to so violently disagree with any of those texts....and those texts promote illicit sex and gratuitous violence.

So...
What's the difference?

Because if the Bible is real and accurate then God and satan are real...and they are in real trouble...the kind that paying a fine or doing a few years of time behind bars won't fix. So it's easier for many to play ostrich than to face reality.

 

[OzSpen]

This is a spill over topic from a different conversation, but worth some consideration and if anyone has any suggestions, some input too.

When confronted with a demand for proof that your faith is valid, either by asking for proof of God, evidance that Christianity (faith in Jesus) is the right religion, or that you yourself are a worth while Christian and asked for proof/evidance that you have faith and follow God; when asked or demanded any of these how do you respond?

For me, the one I've encountered the most is demands of proof that God exists. Usually a demand made by an atheist who is trying to shut up a Christian because they don't want to hear it any more, or start a fight or debate with Christians. At least those are my experiences with the question. But I hope there are others who ask because they really are searching, as opposed to because they use the topic of proof as a trump card to kill any spiritual conversations. Or because they find it intresting or entertaining to ask for proof, but have already come to their own conclusions.

And because of this one of my reactions to the demand for proof is skeptism if they really want to know. After all, the proof I have is from my life and thus personal to me. It's not a philosophy or an argument that can be dragged through the mud in a debate and end up not harming my feelings. So if a person really wants to know I'll share. If I find that I doubt that they are sincere, I have in the past told some people that if they demand proof, then the burden to find it is theirs not the believers, because they have the desire to know it. Or I have reacted that life is full of evidance of God, how can anyone be blind to it, and scolded the person that they were lazy to not look for themselves.

That said those are my experiences with the question. If your in a conversation with mixed religions, proof of God isn't the issue, proof of Christianity can be the demand. Or in the audience of fellow Christians and the conversation has gone south, the demand to prove your faith, or that you are a genuine Christian.

Since these are all demands and challenges to proof, and because I don't think reacting in a negitive or angry tone should be our response like I have in my examples above, does anyone have some insight on handling these situtions, or insight that might either relieve the tension for proof or answer the demands for proof?

NNS,

Thank you for your thought-provoking post.

Most often with a sceptic or person who denies God's existence, I ask them what kind of evidence/proof they will accept. If we are going to have a discussion about evidence for God or Jesus, I want to know up front what proof is worthwhile to them and me. I don't want to waste my time in providing evidence that they will throw out, without consideration.

I want to be engaged with a person at their point of interest or disbelief. This is involved in commencing from some common ground in discussions. In my country, I don't start with evidence from the Bible because that requires having to establish the veracity of the Bible. See my articles on 'Can you trust the Bible? Part 1', where I use the T-I-E-S test to try to establish the veracity of any document - including the Bible.

However, we eventually have to get to the Bible to provide access to the passion-resurrection accounts. That's when I deal with the trustworthy Bible and the refutation of the Bible as containing mythology. I include some of the elements in, 'The Bible: fairy tale or history?'

In establishing evidence for the existence of God, we can use the biblical evidence/proof without the person knowing we are using the Bible. This proof is in Romans 1:18-32 (ESV) and Psalm 19:1-6 (ESV). All I have to do to see evidence of God's existence is to look out of my office window and see the trees, grass, flowers, skies, clouds, etc. This leads to a discussion about why there is such design and regularity in 'nature' and alleged natural disasters such as cyclones (there is one forming over the northern part of Australia right now) and tsunamis.

These kinds of evidence can open up an avalanche of opportunities for discussion or dumping of vitriol.

I sometimes use the kind of evidence provided by:

'Does God exist?' by William Lane Craig

'The Undeluded Truth? The Existence of God and Changed Lives' by Ravi Zacharias

As for evidence for Jesus, there are some who are rationalists, atheists/agnostics who deny even the existence of the historical figure of Jesus. I have had a couple of articles published on an Australian open access journal, On Line Opinion. Here I encountered an atheist and this article indicates how I interacted with him regarding the evidence: Why should an atheist follow Jesus?

I recommend a read of, 'The irreligious assault on the historicity of Jesus' by John Dickson (an Australian evangelical historian). Take a read of the 'comments' section at the end of this article to see examples of the types of hostility to the Christian faith in Australia.

They are some of the pieces of evidence I use to engage with antagonistic Australians - when I have the chance.

Oz

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

There comes a time when shaking the dust off and moving on is the Biblical thing to do... as told by Matt, Mark and Luke

Mat_10:14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Mar_6:11 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Luk_9:5 And whosoever will not receive you, when ye go out of that city, shake off the very dust from your feet for a testimony against them.

Often I think I would agree with that sentiment. Largely because sometimes there comes a point because of what the other person says, that there when you would be glad if they got worse consquences then Sodom and Gomorrha. And in those instances that is a witness to myself that I have engaged in that conversation too long and am not suitable to carry on the conversation. But on the overall theory, the only reason to tell someone about God is for their benefit. Not to condemn them more. So if it ever gets to that point, usually it seems to me like I've failed them. So partially also a newer conclusion is to walk away, because I hope God will find them a different way, and give up it being through me. It's a sad conclusion expecially when it regards people who you care about and cherish in your life. But then again those aren't usually the people who ask for proof.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Much of the research I have done or the things I have learned I was pushed to learn because of inquiries or opposition from nonbelievers. The best critic is someone opposed to something, right? I will try to find some resources and get with answering their question or challenges, as well as my own thoughts and perspective. To show that it can be done, and because it's something I need to improve my knowledge on anyway. Usually at some point I find it is best to stop the conversation, if the other party is not really making it a mutual thing. I will thank them for challenging me because the more I am challenged the more I learn, and move on.

I like that approach. I really really do. :nod

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

Because of the logic.

All of the other religions in the world lack credible logic. (Despite the many illogical things Christians do with the Gospel)

There's only one thing that God could possibly want of mine...especially since He made me and this Universe:...my heart.

My free will exercise to love him for all I'm worth has got to be the thing.

My religious behavior isn't necessary unless it's for me....and I need it.

All other religions want more. They lack historical accuracy. They lack positives. Faith is what credits us with righteousness. Not anything else. The other things that go with faith are not necessarily required.

Altruistic in practice but performed because of Love FOR God.
Definitely different than everyone else.

Atheism is a religion I can't find enough faith for....
Throw all the elements of the periodic table into a cosmic blender and out pops ONE Universe with ONE solar system that has ONE planet that has life. Yeah....I'd easier believe a tornado hit a warehouse district and started spitting out complete homes with sodded lawns and sprinkler systems.

Can't speak about the other religions, because that's outside my scope of knowledge. But otherwise I think I agree with what you said. My question for you though John, is if this is what you would tell a person who challenged you by saying "prove it." Or saying something similar. I hope it would work, but from my experience comments like that that I've seen or said myself only intensified the conversation, and possibly lead to a conversation route of insults or belittling. Hope it's worked better for you.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I mostly tell them,
That they believe there is no God,
I believe in God,
Both are beliefs,
Why go to the grave with no hope?

They do not have proof that there isn't any. Lol
Also the history in the Bible is true, prophecy had been fulfilled and so forth.

As Reba mentioned, shake the dust off your feet.

I like the sentiment, because it's respectful and encourages a desclation of a heated conversation, instead of fanning the flames. I think I've been avoiding the term belief in these contexts though. Some of the context is much more then belief. And I have to assume that they have certain parts that exist outside of the sphere of belief and philosophy also.

Everyone ther way, awesome way to handle yourself and keep your cool.

 

[Corn Pop]

If they were so sure they had the truth they would never need to ask for proof about God, so its obvious everyone who denys god or says unless I have proof I dont believe really is searching for truth.

This world has brainwashed people into confusion and left them confused and offers no hope. Science just says your a piece of scum evolved to higher order and when you die you turn into fertilizer. Yea, thanks for the possitive outlook on life science. No wonder people are angry and depressed, the world offers them no hope and a dead ending.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

NNS,

Thank you for your thought-provoking post.

Most often with a sceptic or person who denies God's existence, I ask them what kind of evidence/proof they will accept. If we are going to have a discussion about evidence for God or Jesus, I want to know up front what proof is worthwhile to them and me. I don't want to waste my time in providing evidence that they will throw out, without consideration.

I want to be engaged with a person at their point of interest or disbelief. This is involved in commencing from some common ground in discussions. In my country, I don't start with evidence from the Bible because that requires having to establish the veracity of the Bible. See my articles on 'Can you trust the Bible? Part 1', where I use the T-I-E-S test to try to establish the veracity of any document - including the Bible.

However, we eventually have to get to the Bible to provide access to the passion-resurrection accounts. That's when I deal with the trustworthy Bible and the refutation of the Bible as containing mythology. I include some of the elements in, 'The Bible: fairy tale or history?'

In establishing evidence for the existence of God, we can use the biblical evidence/proof without the person knowing we are using the Bible. This proof is in Romans 1:18-32 (ESV) and Psalm 19:1-6 (ESV). All I have to do to see evidence of God's existence is to look out of my office window and see the trees, grass, flowers, skies, clouds, etc. This leads to a discussion about why there is such design and regularity in 'nature' and alleged natural disasters such as cyclones (there is one forming over the northern part of Australia right now) and tsunamis.

These kinds of evidence can open up an avalanche of opportunities for discussion or dumping of vitriol.

I sometimes use the kind of evidence provided by:

'Does God exist?' by William Lane Craig

'The Undeluded Truth? The Existence of God and Changed Lives' by Ravi Zacharias

As for evidence for Jesus, there are some who are rationalists, atheists/agnostics who deny even the existence of the historical figure of Jesus. I have had a couple of articles published on an Australian open access journal, On Line Opinion. Here I encountered an atheist and this article indicates how I interacted with him regarding the evidence: Why should an atheist follow Jesus?

I recommend a read of, 'The irreligious assault on the historicity of Jesus' by John Dickson (an Australian evangelical historian). Take a read of the 'comments' section at the end of this article to see examples of the types of hostility to the Christian faith in Australia.

They are some of the pieces of evidence I use to engage with antagonistic Australians - when I have the chance.

Oz

That's a lot of scholarly information. Or at least it sounds scholarly. I hope the approach works for you, and gives them the insight for answering their questions. I'll try and read those links you provided.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

If they were so sure they had the truth they would never need to ask for proof about God, so its obvious everyone who denys god or says unless I have proof I dont believe really is searching for truth.

This world has brainwashed people into confusion and left them confused and offers no hope. Science just says your a piece of scum evolved to higher order and when you die you turn into fertilizer. Yea, thanks for the possitive outlook on life science. No wonder people are angry and depressed, the world offers them no hope and a dead ending.

Hmmm. Yeah, I think I have an answer for that. For hope anyways, even if it doesn't resolve to point a person to God. I have talked about the awe inspiring scope of the night sky. Somehow just looking up at it on a clear night fills me with awe, and with a feeling of pease or hope. Several times, even when the other person doesn't share the awe as a continuation of inspiration towards God, they still have felt a simular feeling.

Even if you can't win a person to God, it's good to share points of hope and peace. At least it seems good in my opinion.

 

[OzSpen]

That's a lot of scholarly information. Or at least it sounds scholarly. I hope the approach works for you, and gives them the insight for answering their questions. I'll try and read those links you provided.

I provided examples of evidence/proof I use in apologetics, but you don't seem to be interested in the evidence I provided, but want to brush it aside as 'sounds scholarly'. A pejorative comment like this is unnecessary.

What I provided is basic information in apologetics. It is not scholarly, but is available to the average person in the church.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Also we have fewer copies of other literature from the same time period as the New Testament was written.... But no one seems to so violently disagree with any of those texts....and those texts promote illicit sex and gratuitous violence.

So...
What's the difference?

Because if the Bible is real and accurate then God and satan are real...and they are in real trouble...the kind that paying a fine or doing a few years of time behind bars won't fix. So it's easier for many to play ostrich than to face reality.

John,

I have provided a comparison chart of the NT documents vs other documents from before that era in my article, Can you trust the Bible? Part 2. I tried to copy into this post but it would not allow the formatting in a table. I composed in my Windows Livewriter but it would not allow me to post here.

Oz

 

[JohnDB]

John,

I have provided a comparison chart of the NT documents vs other documents from before that era in my article, Can you trust the Bible? Part 2. I tried to copy into this post but it would not allow the formatting in a table. I composed in my Windows Livewriter but it would not allow me to post here.

Oz

Try posting first into an email....then copy it out of email and paste here

 

[WIP]

There is no "proof" of the existence of God that a non-believer can see. All we can offer is evidence. I've said it more than once here on these forums, "Just believe. No proof required." And I still mean it today. The truth is, there is no proof of anything beyond what we can personally touch, smell, taste, see, and hear. Even those senses have been known to fool us on occasion. All we have is evidence and we either accept it as adequate to satisfy our questions or we reject it.

Can anyone prove beyond any doubt that Jesus walked the earth? Can anyone prove that the Roman empire really existed? Can anyone prove our first president, George Washington, actually existed? Can anyone prove that Richard Nixon truly existed? If we really get down to it, the answer to each of these questions is no. All we have is evidence either by our own experience, word of mouth, testimony, books, or other artifacts that suggest, sometimes very strongly, that these existed but no absolute proof.

Three days ago it was a beautiful sunny day and we nearly set a new record high temperature for March 12. Yet, there is absolutely no way that I can prove to anyone that March 12, 2016 was a beautiful warm spring day here in Osakis, MN USA. All I can present is evidence from my own personal witness, the testimony of anyone else that experienced it, recorded weather data, etc. but no proof.

 

[smaller]

This is a spill over topic from a different conversation, but worth some consideration and if anyone has any suggestions, some input too.

When confronted with a demand for proof that your faith is valid, either by asking for proof of God, evidance that Christianity (faith in Jesus) is the right religion, or that you yourself are a worth while Christian and asked for proof/evidance that you have faith and follow God; when asked or demanded any of these how do you respond?

For me, the one I've encountered the most is demands of proof that God exists. Usually a demand made by an atheist who is trying to shut up a Christian because they don't want to hear it any more, or start a fight or debate with Christians. At least those are my experiences with the question. But I hope there are others who ask because they really are searching, as opposed to because they use the topic of proof as a trump card to kill any spiritual conversations. Or because they find it intresting or entertaining to ask for proof, but have already come to their own conclusions.

And because of this one of my reactions to the demand for proof is skeptism if they really want to know. After all, the proof I have is from my life and thus personal to me. It's not a philosophy or an argument that can be dragged through the mud in a debate and end up not harming my feelings. So if a person really wants to know I'll share. If I find that I doubt that they are sincere, I have in the past told some people that if they demand proof, then the burden to find it is theirs not the believers, because they have the desire to know it. Or I have reacted that life is full of evidance of God, how can anyone be blind to it, and scolded the person that they were lazy to not look for themselves.

That said those are my experiences with the question. If your in a conversation with mixed religions, proof of God isn't the issue, proof of Christianity can be the demand. Or in the audience of fellow Christians and the conversation has gone south, the demand to prove your faith, or that you are a genuine Christian.

Since these are all demands and challenges to proof, and because I don't think reacting in a negitive or angry tone should be our response like I have in my examples above, does anyone have some insight on handling these situtions, or insight that might either relieve the tension for proof or answer the demands for proof?

I refer such demands to "internal proof."

A. You know in your own heart that evil thoughts and an evil conscience are an internal reality, unless you just lie to yourself, inside.

B. God is Love. You know what love is as well, after the ways of fickle people and your own fickle ever changing love.

so, C. you already have the witnesses and the proof in your own heart. Evil will resist Love. God is Perfect Love. His Love, forgiveness and mercy by faith in Him Is expressed in Jesus Christ, unchanging, never failing, never fickle. If you ask Him, He will show you, by faith in Him.

In this they have HEARD the witness of Jesus Christ, and they can do with the information as they please now that they are aware of the internal conflict that they have.

IF God in Christ elects to reveal Himself from there, that's His Job. Any talk in the external senses is worthless to internal matters of the heart, which every unbeliever will resist looking INto, and will insist on only external realities. Is external reality the only reality? Uh, no. Their own thoughts prove an internal reality.