The demands for proof

[Not_Now.Soon]

I provided examples of evidence/proof I use in apologetics, but you don't seem to be interested in the evidence I provided, but want to brush it aside as 'sounds scholarly'. A pejorative comment like this is unnecessary.

What I provided is basic information in apologetics. It is not scholarly, but is available to the average person in the church.

Oz

??!?
Oz, stop. Don't continue on that train of logic. Ok? Not everyone is out to get you, so you don't need to explain how they (we've?) brushed you off, or insulted you. I know what I wrote and know that I did neither.

Give me time to look over the stuff your referencing. Or at least the chance to look over it on my time. Being scholarly sounding was not an insult or a brush off. Scholarly could in some perspectives be counted as a compliment. It is also a formate of writing I learned in school, to write throughly, and to reference past sources to add credibility. It is because of both the perspective of scholarly being a positive attribute, and the observation that it takes time to Investigate it, because if both of those that I said it seemed scholarly, and that I will read it later.

Please get off the train of thought that I am against you. Ok?

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

There is no "proof" of the existence of God that a non-believer can see. All we can offer is evidence. I've said it more than once here on these forums, "Just believe. No proof required." And I still mean it today. The truth is, there is no proof of anything beyond what we can personally touch, smell, taste, see, and hear. Even those senses have been known to fool us on occasion. All we have is evidence and we either accept it as adequate to satisfy our questions or we reject it.

Can anyone prove beyond any doubt that Jesus walked the earth? Can anyone prove that the Roman empire really existed? Can anyone prove our first president, George Washington, actually existed? Can anyone prove that Richard Nixon truly existed? If we really get down to it, the answer to each of these questions is no. All we have is evidence either by our own experience, word of mouth, testimony, books, or other artifacts that suggest, sometimes very strongly, that these existed but no absolute proof.

Three days ago it was a beautiful sunny day and we nearly set a new record high temperature for March 12. Yet, there is absolutely no way that I can prove to anyone that March 12, 2016 was a beautiful warm spring day here in Osakis, MN USA. All I can present is evidence from my own personal witness, the testimony of anyone else that experienced it, recorded weather data, etc. but no proof.

You're right that evidance is all we have for proof, WIP. And it's up to the person receiving the evidance whether to accept something as adequate,or not.

I think though that there are many instances where the evidance or proof is there even for a non-believer. I think I read in C.S. Lewis's book Mere Christianity, that Lewis was an avid nonbeliever until he took on the challenge to prove God doesn't exist or that the bible is unreliable. It might not have been that book, but I'm sure I read it somewhere that he was an atheist, then after ongoing investigation he became a Christian.

I've heard of this phenomon from other books too. Authors that say they were atheist but are now Christian. And that instills in me the idea that our faith is not just belief, and unable to justify it. Unfortunately the phenomon of books like that are also countered by a nonbeliever of a different religion turning to that religion, or books of christians turning to atheists. But still it instills in me the idea that there is strong evidance.

That said. Even if that is true, it still might not be the right approach attempt to prove God to a nonbeliever. Seems like the conversations where proof is asked for are also the ones that evidance is also neglected to be investigated or heard.

 

[Not_Now.Soon]

I refer such demands to "internal proof."

A. You know in your own heart that evil thoughts and an evil conscience are an internal reality, unless you just lie to yourself, inside.

B. God is Love. You know what love is as well, after the ways of fickle people and your own fickle ever changing love.

so, C. you already have the witnesses and the proof in your own heart. Evil will resist Love. God is Perfect Love. His Love, forgiveness and mercy by faith in Him Is expressed in Jesus Christ, unchanging, never failing, never fickle. If you ask Him, He will show you, by faith in Him.

In this they have HEARD the witness of Jesus Christ, and they can do with the information as they please now that they are aware of the internal conflict that they have.

IF God in Christ elects to reveal Himself from there, that's His Job. Any talk in the external senses is worthless to internal matters of the heart, which every unbeliever will resist looking INto, and will insist on only external realities. Is external reality the only reality? Uh, no. Their own thoughts prove an internal reality.

Good sources to call to. Have them look in their own experiences inside themselves.

 

[WIP]

I didn't say we couldn't justify our belief in God nor did I say that there wasn't strong evidence, but evidence is not proof. To justify something only requires for one to consider it reasonable. My belief in God is justified every morning when I wake up and realize I'm alive, every time I look outdoors and see the beauty of His creation around me, and every time I realize that the God that created it all wants to have a relationship with me of all creatures.

That said. Even if that is true, it still might not be the right approach attempt to prove God to a nonbeliever. Seems like the conversations where proof is asked for are also the ones that evidence is also neglected to be investigated or heard.

Agree.

For me it wasn't proof that brought me to believe. It was something deeper within me, a realization that came from outside of my own being. The only explanation I can offer is that it was the Holy Spirit working within me.

 

[Malachi]

If people want proof for the existence of the Creator, it is rather simple and logical:
1. Nothing in this universe happens by chance.
2. Every created thing needs a creator.
3. All that we see around us is created by someone.
4. Hence creation is proof of the Creator (Rom 1:20).
5. Therefore there is NO EXCUSE for denying God (Rom 1:20).

 

[WIP]

If people want proof for the existence of the Creator, it is rather simple and logical:
1. Nothing in this universe happens by chance.
2. Every created thing needs a creator.
3. All that we see around us is created by someone.
4. Hence creation is proof of the Creator (Rom 1:20).
5. Therefore there is NO EXCUSE for denying God (Rom 1:20).

I agree that creation is proof of a creator but not necessarily the Creator from a non-believer's perspective. From ours? Absolutely!

 

[smaller]

If people want proof for the existence of the Creator, it is rather simple and logical:
1. Nothing in this universe happens by chance.
2. Every created thing needs a creator.
3. All that we see around us is created by someone.
4. Hence creation is proof of the Creator (Rom 1:20).
5. Therefore there is NO EXCUSE for denying God (Rom 1:20).

First cause is a reasonable retort. But it does not entail empirical or forensic evidence.

 

[JohnDB]

For many proof is not relevant... No matter the proof.

Even though Jesus appeared to over 500 people they still doubted.

Someone came back from the dead and yet....and Jesus wasn't the only one.

A little girl, Lazarus, and the widow's son ALL came back from the dead. But yet there was a lot of doubt. Only a few hundred believed.

So if that didn't work then why would it work today?

 

[smaller]

For many proof is not relevant... No matter the proof.

Even though Jesus appeared to over 500 people they still doubted.

Someone came back from the dead and yet....and Jesus wasn't the only one.

A little girl, Lazarus, and the widow's son ALL came back from the dead. But yet there was a lot of doubt. Only a few hundred believed.

So if that didn't work then why would it work today?

Because "faith" has to be:

A. Given by God Himself

and

B. Faith is an internal and unseen matter

 

[for_his_glory]

The carnal mind can not perceive the things of the Spirit as flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit, John 3:6. We were all carnal before we came into the Spiritual understanding of who God is by His Son Christ Jesus. If one has no relationship with Christ then one has no knowledge that God even exist. Each of us came to Christ in various ways which becomes our witness as we testify of Gods mercy and grace in our own lives. All the proof we have is applying Gods word to our life to know He is very real as when one seeks with a sincere heart God will reveal himself to them. There is an old saying "the proof is in the pudding", if you do not taste it then how do you know whether you will like it or not. Psalms 34:8 O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him. We can't force people to believe, but each of us has a witness to share and leave it at that and pray for that person you are sharing with.

 

[for_his_glory]

If people want proof for the existence of the Creator, it is rather simple and logical:
1. Nothing in this universe happens by chance.
2. Every created thing needs a creator.
3. All that we see around us is created by someone.
4. Hence creation is proof of the Creator (Rom 1:20).
5. Therefore there is NO EXCUSE for denying God (Rom 1:20).

Evolutionist will disagree with all that and explain how all things came to be as they deny God ever existed.

 

[Malachi]

I agree that creation is proof of a creator but not necessarily the Creator from a non-believer's perspective. From ours? Absolutely!

Well if you read what that Scripture says, creation is proof enough for non-believers.
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

 

[Malachi]

The carnal mind can not perceive the things of the Spirit

True enough. But creation is proof for the carnal mind. That's what God says.

 

[WIP]

Well if you read what that Scripture says, creation is proof enough for non-believers.
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

I agree with the Scripture you quoted but the topic of this thread is us proving to others that God exists. The Scripture you posted shows how we already have the understanding from God and that's something different.

For this reason, I will never try to prove the existence of God to another human being. I can't. Only God can.

 

[for_his_glory]

True enough. But creation is proof for the carnal mind. That's what God says.

as you showed in Romans 1:19,20 man holds back that which has been given them as they neglect what God has shown them as they become fools to themselves and will stand before God without excuse as they have been given proof, but would rather follow after their own imaginations.

 

[for_his_glory]

Duplicate

 

[smaller]

as you showed in Romans 1:19,20 man holds back that which has been given them as they neglect what God has shown them as they become fools to themselves and will stand before God without excuse as they have been given proof, but would rather follow after their own imaginations.

I am not given to condemnation of those who do not believe, because I see their condition as no differently than my own, prior. Acts 26:18, Romans 11:8, 2 Cor. 3:14, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2. When I read these NOW I see that there is more than just "the individual" involved. There IS a purposeful blocker that is set in place, upon such minds. And I believe that too is by/from God, who can unwrap anyone anytime He pleases to do so.

God in Christ was merciful to me when I did NOT expect it. And He can be so to anyone at anytime. These things are not in our control. We are witnesses only. We are not above our Master. And we CAN be merciful, likewise, to anyone else.

 

[JohnDB]

OK guys...

But when several people come back from the dead....and they were even buried...

But now they are alive.

And people still refuse to believe as most Jews were still in stubborn refusal...

That means that there is not going to ever be proof enough for people to believe.
It didn't work then and it still won't work today.

Kinda like repackaged political policies that have failed in the past. Politicians still bring them back out and stump upon them. Same thing goes with old failed theologies that Jesus dismissed as being wrong...people just repackage them and resell them.

We want what we want and it doesn't matter how bad or failed an idea is we want it regardless of the truth.

 

[OzSpen]

Try posting first into an email....then copy it out of email and paste here

John,

My Windows Livewriter is the programme I use for uploading an article to my homepage. It is just as html compliant as an email programme. I'll try the email, but I don't expect it to be any better than the Livewriter.

Here goes. I have used my email programme's table feature here, with this result:
Author/Book
Date written
Earliest Copies
Time Gap
No. of Copies
Percent Accuracy

So, the software on CFnet will not accept a table feature copied from my Livewriter or Thunderbird email.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

OK guys...

But when several people come back from the dead....and they were even buried...

But now they are alive.

And people still refuse to believe as most Jews were still in stubborn refusal...

That means that there is not going to ever be proof enough for people to believe.
It didn't work then and it still won't work today.

Kinda like repackaged political policies that have failed in the past. Politicians still bring them back out and stump upon them. Same thing goes with old failed theologies that Jesus dismissed as being wrong...people just repackage them and resell them.

We want what we want and it doesn't matter how bad or failed an idea is we want it regardless of the truth.

John,

The issue does not relate to y our example of people coming back from the dead. That's a human generated example (after they've been buried - to boot).

We know that people in Jesus' day and people today will not respond unless they are drawn to the Saviour by God the Father (John 6:44 ESV; John 6:65 ESV).

The point that is being raised is: Does God continue to perform supernatural signs and wonders. John 14:12 (ESV) says that Jesus has given to believers the ministry of doing Jesus' works when he returns to the Father. Did those works include miracles? Yes, they did.

Part of the difficulty, as I see it, is that there have been so many shenanigans associated with 'faith teachers' and their hype on TV that people, God's people, have grown sceptical of expecting genuine supernatural manifestations. We should not allow the extreme to hide the need for the genuine, any more than we should allow hoons in cars on our streets to eliminate the need for careful driving by most of the populace.

Oz