Bible Study The election of grace

[beloved57]

rom 11:



5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Many today are expressing that they are saved by grace through faith. They say this because its cleary a truth declared in the word of God.



eph 2:



8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:



But what is this verse teaching ? Is it teaching that we have to excercise faith to get saved by grace ? No it is not..nowhere near that..



Its actually saying that we have been saved by sovereign electing grace and faith has revealed this to us..



It is faith a spiritual grace imparted at the newbirth that we[ the elect] recieve the knowledge of the gospel truth of election by grace..



So what am I saying here ? I am saying that not only is limited particular atonement a foundational gospel truth, but so is unconditional election by sovereign grace..



Notice pauls statement in rom 9:



1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)




The contextual commentary stands for itself , that paul was explaining the misunderstanding of the jews..That the gracious covenant promises were never to the fleshly decsendants of abraham but to a chosen portion, those regarded as children of promise..



Now what constitutes a child of promise ? A child of promise is a person who is brought into being soley based on Gods word of promise alone apart from any human contribution..



This truth is displayed in the birth of Isaach to sarah and abraham. God told them that they would have a son at a time in the history of their physical lives when it was humanly impossible for this to happen..



Sarah knowing this concluded that God must be got to be talking about fulfilling this promise of having a son through a handmaid hagar , and not her own bowels[ she was too old]..Of cousrse this was wrong and we wind up with ishamael, a son born of the common way of human beings..But this is not what God had promised was it ? God promised that sarah would have a son inspite of the odds that it was humanly impossible..



But as we know sarah did have a son as the promise or word of God had said , hence this birth of Issach..Issach was born not by the will of man, or the flesh nor his own decision, but soley by The purpose and power of God..It is only the election of grace that God brings into being by way of new birth and hence the reason for christ words in jn 1:



12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.



So the born again ones those being so by the sovereign work of the spirit, these are the true israel rom 9:6



these were born as a direct result of promise contingent soley on the word and power of God..the promise given to abraham is this:



gen 12:



1Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.



More specifically restated in gen 17



Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.



notice in the verse abraham is declared to be already made a father to many nations to people of those nations that had not even been born phsically yet but God says he is their father ??



And the born again ones , the children of promise , are of and for the reason of rom 9: 11




11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)



I have showed from rom 9 as it regards Isaac for the teaching of election of grace in the gospel and of course paul gives a second illustration with the twins jacob and easu but for now I will not elaborate on that..



So faith takes hold of the truth of the election of grace , and gives the elect sinner assurance of their election by grace :



heb 11:



1NOW FAITH is the assurance (the confirmation, [a]the title deed) of the things [we] hope for, being the proof of things [we] do not see and the conviction of their reality [faith perceiving as real fact what is not revealed to the senses].



The above is the amplified version of the verse but I believe it conveys the true nature of faith quite well..It is God giving His elect a spiritual persuasion and conviction that they are partakers of the election of grace revealed in the preaching of the gospel of jesus christ..



Thats why paul said in 1 thess 1



4For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, 5because our gospel came to you not simply with words, but also with power, with the Holy Spirit and with deep conviction. You know how we lived among you for your sake.



How could paul make a statement as he did in vs 4 we know beloved that God has chosen you, how would a statement like that have had revelance to the thessonlicans except paul had made that truth known to them in preaching the gospel to them ??



He basically is saying you are part of the election of grace , because of their readiness of mind and eagerness to believe this gospel truth..



He witnessed their belief in the truth as they had been elected to or chosen to..2 thess 2:



13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:



Belief in the truth of sovereign election as to those whom christ died..



Paul has grace as his theme for the gospel of jesus christ



How do I know this ? Take a look at acts 20:



24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.



How would paul testify to the grace of God ?



rom 11:



5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Amen he preached it to the jew and to the greek , yeah the gospel of Gods grace..



So when one says that I am saved by grace through faith and yet is ignorant to or rejects the truth of unconditional sovereign election by grace..



They have not believed the gospel paul preached and if man preaches a gospel that omits the teaching of election of grace is preaching a false gospel and should be accursed..



There is no salvation by grace through faith without the knowledge of the spiritual knowledge of the election of grace..

 

[Drew]

In this post, I address any claim that Romans 9 in particular deals with the matter of the election of individual persons to salvation or to loss. I have no immediate comment on the other texts that beloved57 has provided.

I think it is clear that Romans 9 has nothing at all to do with the election of individuals, whether as the main meaning or even as a "double meaning". The case that this text is about Israel, and not individuals, is very powerful and I would be happy to provide it even though it has been given before in other threads.

In this post, I will only give summary points:

1. Romans 9 and 10 is a re-telling of the covenant history of Israel from establishment of the covenant with Abraham all the way through to exile and covenant renewal. All the highlights of the covenant history - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses + Pharaoh, exile, and covenant renewal - are all there in the correct sequence. And that is just the beginning of the case that this is about Israel

2. Paul is rather clearly using the covenant history he presents here to make the following case: God has been faithful to the covenant even though ethnic Israel has rejected the gospel.

3. The "potter and his clay" (as per Romans 9) echoes several Old Testament passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah where God's treatment of Israel is likened to the relationship between a potter and clay.

4. It would make Paul a very confused writer to insert statements about election of individuals to salvation or loss in the middle of an argument that is otherwise so clearly about Israel and how God has been faithful to his covenant with her.

5. Even though there is no explicit statement to this effect, a powerful argument can be made that, in the potter account in Romans 9, Paul is saying that Israel is a "vessel fitted for destruction" inasmuch as she "acts out the Christ pattern" in being "cast away for the sin of the world". This notion is derived from material in Romans 5 and is echoed again in such passages as Romans 11:15.

 

[Drew]

Further in respect to Romans 9. Just before he talks about the potter and his clay pot, Paul makes reference to Pharoah being hardened:

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

Pharaoh was not hardened for the specific purpose of sending to Hell when he dies. Pharoah was hardened in order that God can work in real human history to achieve an important redemptive act - the delivery of the Jews from oppression in Egypt.

We cannot simply assume that "election" refers to election in respect to individuals going to heaven or to hell. God elects people and nations to specific tasks - its not only about individuals and their ultimate destination.

In Romans 9, Paul is talking about how Israel, as a nation, has been "elected" to a terrible yet necessary fate - being the place where the sin of the world gets accumulated so that it can then be dealt with by Jesus, with the result that the Gentiles are then brought into the covenant family. Please consider how my hypothesis harmonizes with what Paul writes in Romans 11:

11Again I ask: Did they (***obviously national Israel) stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring

It is this election - Israel stumbling so that the world can be blessed - that is in view in Romans 9.

 

[beloved57]

In this post, I address any claim that Romans 9 in particular deals with the matter of the election of individual persons to salvation or to loss. I have no immediate comment on the other texts that beloved57 has provided.

I think it is clear that Romans 9 has nothing at all to do with the election of individuals, whether as the main meaning or even as a "double meaning". The case that this text is about Israel, and not individuals, is very powerful and I would be happy to provide it even though it has been given before in other threads.

In this post, I will only give summary points:

1. Romans 9 and 10 is a re-telling of the covenant history of Israel from establishment of the covenant with Abraham all the way through to exile and covenant renewal. All the highlights of the covenant history - Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses + Pharaoh, exile, and covenant renewal - are all there in the correct sequence. And that is just the beginning of the case that this is about Israel

2. Paul is rather clearly using the covenant history he presents here to make the following case: God has been faithful to the covenant even though ethnic Israel has rejected the gospel.

3. The "potter and his clay" (as per Romans 9) echoes several Old Testament passages in Isaiah and Jeremiah where God's treatment of Israel is likened to the relationship between a potter and clay.

4. It would make Paul a very confused writer to insert statements about election of individuals to salvation or loss in the middle of an argument that is otherwise so clearly about Israel and how God has been faithful to his covenant with her.

5. Even though there is no explicit statement to this effect, a powerful argument can be made that, in the potter account in Romans 9, Paul is saying that Israel is a "vessel fitted for destruction" inasmuch as she "acts out the Christ pattern" in being "cast away for the sin of the world". This notion is derived from material in Romans 5 and is echoed again in such passages as Romans 11:15.

God is going to judge you soon for gainsaying His truth.. :D

 

[Drew]

God is going to judge you soon for gainsaying His truth.. :D

[sarcasm]Thanks for discussing this responsibly and not responding to my counterargument to your position with a rhetorical threat where you presume to speak for God/[/sarcasm]

 

[beloved57]

God is going to judge you soon for gainsaying His truth.. :D

[sarcasm]Thanks for discussing this responsibly and not responding to my counterargument to your position with a rhetorical threat where you presume to speak for God/[/sarcasm]

I am discussing it responsibily with a false anti christ teacher..

acts 13:

8But Elymas the sorcerer (for so is his name by interpretation) withstood them, seeking to turn away the deputy from the faith.

9Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him.

10And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?

Gal 1:

7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

There ..have a nice day..

 

[Drew]

I am discussing it responsibily with a false anti christ teacher..

No you are not.

You respond to responsible discussion with a rhetorical threat. Your name-calling behaviour got you banned from one forum. Are you shooting for 2?

 

[Bick]

Quoted by beloved57:
"Its actually saying that we have been saved by sovereign electing grace and faith has revealed this to us..

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

But what is this verse teaching ? Is it teaching that we have to excercise faith to get saved by grace ? No it is not..nowhere"

MY COMMENTS: I understand God's grace to be His special unmerited favor. And it is because God is gracious that our salvation depends, first and foremost, on the faith of Jesus Christ. There are a number of scriptures which speak of the importance of Christ's faith; Verses wrongly translated in practically all versions in English.

Lets start with Rom. 3:21ff (Rotherham text): "But, now, apart from law, a righteousness of God has been manifested, being attested by the law and the prophets; even a righteousness of God through faith of Jesus Christ, unto all who have faith; for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being declared righteous, freely, by his favor, through the redemption which [is] in Christ Jesus: whom God set forth as a propitiatory covering, through faith in his blood; for a pointing out of his righteousness, because of the passing over of the previously-committed sins, in the forebearance of God; with a view to the pointing out of his righteousness in the present season, to-the-end he might be righteous himself even when declaring righteous the [man] of faith of Jesus."

Thus, the SOURCE of the righteousness is God, the GROUND of the righteousness is blood, and the CHANNEL of righteousness is faith, HIS faith.

Galatians joins in the witness:
"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by works of the law;" Gal. 2:16, literal rendering.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I; but Christ liveth in me; and the life that I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me." Gal. 2:20, literal rendering.

"But the scripture locks up all together under sin, that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing." Gal. 3:22, CV.

Ephesians also joins in the witness:
"..which He makes in Christ Jesus, our Lord; in whom we have boldness and access with confidence, through His faith---" Eph, 3:12, CV.

Also Philippians joins in:
Paul affirms that his chief aim is that he "be found in Him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith." Phil. 3:9, literal rendering.

My friend, these verses tell us of the importance of Jesus' faith leading up to the cross; He, knowing that the sins of all the world of mankind were placed upon himself, to be taken away.

As for "limited particular atonement" being a "foundational gospel truth", you obviously conveniently ignore many scriptures, such as these below:

"BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD WHO TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD!" John 1:29, RSV.

"AND HE IS THE EXPIATION FOR OUR SINS, AND NOT FOR OURS ONLY BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD." 1 John 2:2, RSV.

"ALL THIS IS FROM GOD, WHO THROUGH CHRIST RECONCILED US TO HIMSELF AND GAVE US THE MINISTRY OF RECONCILIATION; THAT IS, GOD WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF, NOT COUNTING THEIR TRESPASSES AGAINST THEM;" 2 Cor. 5:18, RSV.