The Empty Graves

[Veritas]

So I am not trying to prove anyone right or wrong, I am just trying to understand the logic of belief.

Why?

Belief or faith is beyond/above logic, its not something to be figured out. After saying that; however, logic is still affirmed and sustained. After all Jesus did say he is Truth, and Truth is the foundation of logic.

I've talked with you before about this and I suggest that you ask yourself if logic really exists at all. If reason is actually intrinsic to the universe. If you think it is, then we can reasonable discussion.

 

[Quath]

Why?

Since believers way outnumber unbelievers, it makes sense for me to know what may or may not happen. Could we ever fall back into a theocracy? If so what would happen? Should I try to defend social positions with purely secular logic or should I try to use Christians beliefs as well? Do most people have rigid fundamental beliefs or are they more likely to mix it with worldly experience? My kids talk about being nonbelievers with their friends, should I worry something bad may happen to them?

Belief or faith is beyond/above logic, its not something to be figured out. After saying that; however, logic is still affirmed and sustained. After all Jesus did say he is Truth, and Truth is the foundation of logic.

Well, without any logic or evidence, why pick one religion over another? I think in a sense, people do believe they need some proof (though they may not actually get it). So I am trying to see how much of belief is evidence and how much is just believing without skepticism.

I've talked with you before about this and I suggest that you ask yourself if logic really exists at all. If reason is actually intrinsic to the universe. If you think it is, then we can reasonable discussion.

That is some deep philosophy. I guess either that there is reason and is part of the universe or there is no reason so it is useless to try to figure it out. Or maybe somewhere in the middle. I rather go with the assumption that reasons is real because the alternative means that nothing can really be figured out.

 

[Lewis]

Man Quath if we ever did fall back into a theocracy' and I was king' you would be the first person' that I would send for. I would have you dragged down a rocky street' by chariot and then stoned' and racked over hot coals' and thrown off a bridge with a to long bungy cord. In the name of Evolution. Just kidding' Just kidding. Oh I almost forgot to have you stretched on the rack' until you are about 10 feet. then drawn and quartered. Then hewn into the shape and likeness of a monkey' in the name of evolution. Can't you all tell that I am very bored tonight. :-D :D

 

[Quath]

That's ok as long as I am not forced to watch Vegitales.

 

[Solo]

That's ok as long as I am not forced to watch Vegitales.

Just Barney reruns! ;-)

 

[Orion]

Getting off topic here, folks! :roll: . . . . If you're going to watch cartoons, it starts and ends with . . . . SPONGE BOB!! :-D

 

[Vic C.]

That's ok as long as I am not forced to watch Vegitales.

Man, Veggie Tales is excellent! :smt026

 

[Veritas]

Quath, so you really do fear those who call themselves Christian in particular? I'm saddened by that. But, we are no better than anyone else so in a way that is not hugely suprising. How about Jesus? (based on what you know of Him from the Bible) Would you be worried to have your kids around a guy like that?

Well, without any logic or evidence, why pick one religion over another? I think in a sense, people do believe they need some proof (though they may not actually get it). So I am trying to see how much of belief is evidence and how much is just believing without skepticism.

Oh, well yes. I think logic and evidence definately play a part. But I think it only brings you so far. Logic itself is not really provable. It's it's own definition, and so it just is. Unescapable if you are trying to be reasonable. :wink:

I rather go with the assumption that reasons is real because the alternative means that nothing can really be figured out.

Me too. But now you've just accepted that there is this law that is abided by.

This leads you very close to accepting God... but I don't think it will quite convince you right? Some may think that a law means there must be a law giver (I do) but I suppose you could deny it and just go with the law and put the law in the lawgivers spot. I just think this is just another perfect example of how we are led right up to God... but there is that final leap of faith.

 

[Quath]

Quath, so you really do fear those who call themselves Christian in particular? I'm saddened by that. But, we are no better than anyone else so in a way that is not hugely suprising. How about Jesus? (based on what you know of Him from the Bible) Would you be worried to have your kids around a guy like that?

There have been many times in history when being non-Christian can get you killed. The Inquisition is a common example, but Virginia had the death penality for blasphemy at one point. If there was a plague, people could get killed if they thought you had angered God.

Christians also had to deal with some of this too. What I worry about is dogma. It can be used to sancion many horrible things.

As for Jesus, I don't believe in the miracles. But he seems like he was trying to be progressive and spread some positive messages.

This leads you very close to accepting God... but I don't think it will quite convince you right? Some may think that a law means there must be a law giver (I do) but I suppose you could deny it and just go with the law and put the law in the lawgivers spot. I just think this is just another perfect example of how we are led right up to God... but there is that final leap of faith.

Yeah, just because something exists (like a law) it doesn't imply something created it (like a law-giver). If I changed it to "God exists must imply there is a God-giver" I don't think you would agree. So by the same reasoning, I don't think a law-giver is required.

 

[christian_soldier]

Yeah, just because something exists (like a law) it doesn't imply something created it (like a law-giver). If I changed it to "God exists must imply there is a God-giver" I don't think you would agree.

Nope, because God is something that a law can never be....self-existent.

 

[Veritas]

There have been many times in history when being non-Christian can get you killed. The Inquisition is a common example, but Virginia had the death penality for blasphemy at one point. If there was a plague, people could get killed if they thought you had angered God.

Yeah, I evaluate Christ based on He said and did, not by followers (and I'm not even sure they actually were true followers) that horribly used His name to justify bad things. Here is the reason I believe God gave us logic. Based on what Jesus told us, I don't think its possible to logically conclude that the horrific acts you mentioned are even close to what Jesus had in mind for us.

What I worry about is dogma. It can be used to sancion many horrible things.

What do you mean by dogma? I believe all faiths outside faith in Christ are untrue.

Just so you know, I would stick up for you and your family if I knew that "(so called) christians" were going to kill or hurt you because you choose not to believe. Its kinda part of my dogma. You are free. The freedom to believe whatever we want is integral to our being. You can say no to Jesus, but Jesus still loves you, and desires you to be with Him... there is no way I would want you or your loved ones life cut short.. ...cut short of a chance to know Him. There is no way I would want you or your loved ones to be hurt badly by a "christian" for fear that would affect your view of Christ.

Have we gotten far enough off the original post yet?

sorry about that.

 

[Quath]

Nope, because God is something that a law can never be....self-existent.

How do you know that? Or is that a belief you take on faith?

What do you mean by dogma? I believe all faiths outside faith in Christ are untrue.

By dogma, I just mean "truths that are accepted without proof, just belief." So dogma could be used for good actions if they are told it is good to give money to the poor. Or it could be bad if people are told that they need to kill others for living on promised land.

Just so you know, I would stick up for you and your family if I knew that "(so called) christians" were going to kill or hurt you because you choose not to believe.

I appreciate that. I really hope that a lot of modern tolerance stays with us and does not get tossed aside. There are a few stories about America becoming more like a theocracy. One pretty popular story is The Handmaid's Tale. It is a pretty good book, though I don't think the movie did that great.

But here is the tougher question. If you had been born a few thousand years ago, would you have the same morality you have now? For example, at Jericho, would you have obeyed God and killed everyone (including children) in Jericho because they lived on God's land? Or would you have rebelled against God and refused?

This is a tough question for a Christian because no matter how you answer it, it is going to sound bad. If you say you would follow God to kill others, then I would have to worry that one day you may believe God is telling you to go kill. If you say you wouldn't, then you show mistrust for a literal Bible (which some Christians do). But this then is a slippery slope. If part of the Bible is not tue, what part can you be sure is true?

 

[christian_soldier]

christian_soldier wrote:
Nope, because God is something that a law can never be....self-existent.

How do you know that? Or is that a belief you take on faith?

It is a faith based belief. BUT it is based on viewing the world around us as a creation, not random chance.

Where there is a building there is an architect. Toss a bunch of leggos in the air for eternity. They will never fall in place as a structure.

Where there is creation, there is Creator. The only possible explanation for the existence of the Creator is self-existence. I look forward to the day when I will have a full understanding. For now, belief is sufficient.

 

[Quath]

Where there is a building there is an architect. Toss a bunch of leggos in the air for eternity. They will never fall in place as a structure.

Where there is creation, there is Creator. The only possible explanation for the existence of the Creator is self-existence. I look forward to the day when I will have a full understanding. For now, belief is sufficient.

I think that view works for some things but not others. For example, in the past, people saw the movement of the planets across the sky. They thought "Where there is movement, there is a mover with some degree of intelligence." So they believed that gods or angels moved the celestial bodies. But it turned out to be gravity. Now you may say that an intelligent being created gravity, but that is going one more step too far. People thought the planet movement itself was intelligent instead of a simple physical law.

Likewise, if I were to look at snowflakes under a microscope and see all the different patterns, I could conclude they are all different and beautiful. They look like art. And where there is art, there is an artist. But this too can be reduced to a simple law of freezing.

Nature is full of observations that first look intelligent (like weather patterns, earthquakes and cloud formations) but can later be reduced to simplier natural laws that require no intelligence. From this pattern, I tend to find human judgement about how nature should work to be a flawed one. We have a bad history of guessing at intelligence where there is none.

 

[Veritas]

If you had been born a few thousand years ago, would you have the same morality you have now? For example, at Jericho, would you have obeyed God and killed everyone (including children) in Jericho because they lived on God's land? Or would you have rebelled against God and refused?

Yes, I think I would have the same morality, and yes I would have obeyed God back then (I hope). God was setting up a situation where you could "come and see his people". Now, according to Him, according to Jesus, the time for His people is to "go and tell". God always had this scope in mind. I just wouldn't have seen it all if I grew up in the past.