The End is Near

[dlockcarr]

Video Games For Jesus (a Christian xbox gaming community) just finished doing our bible study on Revelation chapters 6 and 7 as we go through the whole book. I want to start off by saying fellow brothers this is a topic very dear to me a topic that you don't hear very much talk of in church anymore. I am a pre tribulation rapture believer just so you all know. I think revelation the Apocalypse is coming soon. On the whole topic what are you alls beliefs ideas about it?
Ps if you want to join .my group send me a message

 

[JudaicChristian]

I do not call myself a prophet because God does not tell me the names and dates of these events. The pre trib rapture is a doctrine of men and is not supported by scriptures. The time of Christ return will go beyond what Christians now think.

 

[dlockcarr]

before I debate why I believe in pre tribulation rapture what view do you take on this

 

[JudaicChristian]

before I debate why I believe in pre tribulation rapture what view do you take on this

There is scriptures that inform us that in order for there to be any survivors Christ must come to rescue them. That would mean his return is at the end.

 

[dlockcarr]

So you believe in post tribulation is that correct

 

[JudaicChristian]

So you believe in post tribulation is that correct

There is tribulation even at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. At that time all things will be made new. Your point is what?

 

[dlockcarr]

I'm just asking you first what you believe about the book of revelation and how you are talking it sounds like you believe in post tribulation rapture not pre I'm asking you is that corect

 

[dlockcarr]

Just so ya know there are many things in the bible that profs pre tribulation raptur and I am about to show you some so hold on to your seat
 

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By Todd Strandberg

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What is the Pretribulation Rapture?

The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53).

The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning--something Jesus used quite frequently--I hope to prove the reality of the pretribulation rapture.

The word "rapture" comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words "caught up" are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to "rapture" involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word "rapture."

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Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture

 

The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years late

 

[dlockcarr]

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it's time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).

 

What They Didn't Teach You in History Class
Many groups try to discredit the pre-trib rapture by saying most of the end-time events in the Bible have already taken place. A group of people called preterists claims that the Book of Revelation was mostly fulfilled by 70 AD. If the events described in the Book of Revelation took place in the past, I'm at a loss to explain some of the current situations I see around us: the rebirth of Israel, the reunification of Europe, the number of global wars that have occurred, and the development of nuclear weapons. During history class, I must have slept through the part where the teacher talked about the time when a third of the trees were burned up, 100-pound hailstones fell from the sky, and the sea turned into blood (Rev 8:7-8, 16:21). I think several people would have to question their opposition to the pre-trib rapture doctrine if they knew that the evidence provided to them was based on the understanding that most tribulation prophecies have already occurred.

 

The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell.

 

The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?

 

[JudaicChristian]

Just so ya know there are many things in the bible that profs pre tribulation raptur and I am about to show you some so hold on to your seat
 

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By Todd Strandberg

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What is the Pretribulation Rapture?

The rapture is an event that will take place sometime in the near future. Jesus will come in the air, catch up the Church from the earth, and then return to heaven with the Church. The Apostle Paul gave a clear description of the rapture event in his letters to the Thessalonians and Corinthians.

"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Thess, 4:16-18).
The discription Paul is giving is an overview, both of the Elect and later the sheep from the goats.
"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality" (1 Cor. 15:51-53). Most all people are made to wait, but God has been known to make exception for some people.

The timing of the rapture is not known. From the Word of God and from sound reasoning--something Jesus used quite frequently--I hope to prove the reality of the pretribulation rapture.

The word "rapture" comes from Paul's "caught up" remark in verse 17. The words "caught up" are translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means "to carry off," "snatch up," or "grasp hastily." The translation from harpazo to "rapture" involved two steps: first, harpazo became the Latin word raptus; second, raptus became the English word "rapture."
The word "rapture" is an interpretation, and not a translation.
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Scriptural Evidence for the Pretribulation Rapture

 

The Unknown Hour
When we search the Scriptures and read the passages describing the Lord Jesus' return, we find verses that tell us we won't know the day and hour of that event. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 indicates that the Jews will have to wait on the Lord 1,260 days, starting when the Antichrist stands in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God (2 Thes 2:4). This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven-year tribulation (Dan 9:27). Note that some people only see a three-and-a-half-year tribulation. In a way, they are correct because the first half of the tribulation will be relatively peaceful compared to the second half. Nonetheless, peaceful or not, there still remains a seven-year period called the tribulation. When the Jews flee into the wilderness, they know that all they have to do is wait out those 1,260 days (Mat 24:16). There is no way to apply the phrase "neither the day nor the hour" to this situation. The only way for these two viewpoints to be true is to separate the two distinct events transpiring here: 1) the rapture of the Church, which comes before the tribulation; and 2) the return of Jesus to the earth, which takes place roughly seven years late

We do not know the day or hour, but we know of the season.

If you will not listen to me, then listen to :
Habakkuk 2
1 I will stand at my watch
and station myself on the ramparts;
I will look to see what he will say to me,
and what answer I am to give to this complaint.

The LORD's Answer
2 Then the LORD replied:
"Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a messenger may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it will certainly come and will not delay.


Revelation 10:6
And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!

Two days from the defeat of Israel is 2133 AD. Michael.

 

[freeway]

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb
In Luke 12:36, the Word states that when Christ returns, He will be returning from a wedding. In Revelation 19:7-8, we read about the marriage itself. The marriage supper takes place before the marriage. According to Jewish custom, the marriage contract, which often includes a dowry, is drawn up first. The contract parallels the act of faith we use when we trust Jesus to be our Savior. The dowry is His life, which was used to purchase us. When it's time for the wedding, the groom goes to the bride's house unannounced. She comes out to meet him, and then he takes her to his father's house. This precisely correlates with the events according to the pre-trib scenario. Jesus, the Groom, comes down from heaven and calls up the Church, His Bride. After meeting in the air, He and His Bride return to His Father's house, heaven. The marriage supper itself will take place there, while down here on earth the final events of the tribulation will be playing out. After the marriage supper of Jewish tradition, the bride and groom are presented to the world as man and wife. This corresponds to the time when Jesus returns to earth accompanied by an army "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" (Rev 19:14).

 

What They Didn't Teach You in History Class
Many groups try to discredit the pre-trib rapture by saying most of the end-time events in the Bible have already taken place. A group of people called preterists claims that the Book of Revelation was mostly fulfilled by 70 AD. If the events described in the Book of Revelation took place in the past, I'm at a loss to explain some of the current situations I see around us: the rebirth of Israel, the reunification of Europe, the number of global wars that have occurred, and the development of nuclear weapons. During history class, I must have slept through the part where the teacher talked about the time when a third of the trees were burned up, 100-pound hailstones fell from the sky, and the sea turned into blood (Rev 8:7-8, 16:21). I think several people would have to question their opposition to the pre-trib rapture doctrine if they knew that the evidence provided to them was based on the understanding that most tribulation prophecies have already occurred.

 

The People of the Millennium
If Christ were to come back after the tribulation, rapture all the saints, and slay all the ungodly, who would be left to populate the earth during the millennium? Only the pre-trib viewpoint can account for this post-trib problem. The Church is raptured before the tribulation, a vast number of souls are saved during this seven-year time frame, and those who make it through the tribulation go into the millennium while the unsaved are cast into hell.

 

The Saint U-Turn
In the pre-trib scenario, after we rise to meet the Lord in the air, we will go to heaven and abide there seven years. At the end of that period, Christ will come down to earth, defeat the Antichrist, and cleanse the temple. In a post-trib rapture, we would rise in the air to meet the Lord, then do a 180-degree U-turn and come back down to earth. Revelation 1:7 states that Christ will appear out of the clouds and come down to earth. Zechariah 14:4 says that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If He's already headed our way, why would we need to be caught up to meet Him?

All I can say is nice. I to am a pretrib believer, I believe the post view leaves more questions than it answers.

 

[veteran]

dlockcarr,

I definitely see God's Word teaching a post-tribulational return of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is what was believed by His Church for over 1800 years, until a group of men in Britain began preaching the idea of a "secret rapture" (i.e., John Darby), and then others took it from there (like Scofield's Bible).

So if you are desiring to discuss this matter with many believers here, you'll need to go straight to the Scriptures for yourself in honesty, and not simply post articles written by others to debate for you.

There's already a debate on the subject at another thread, started by fwatchman I think.

 

[dlockcarr]

Well one thing we can all agree on his that the events in the book of revelation will happen despite what order we believe they will happen

 

[dlockcarr]

haver I believe the rapture acures betwEen chapters 3 and 4

 

[GodspromisesRyes]

hi there, I am not pre trib and agree it is a doctrine of men. but that wasnt really what your topic was about and i dont usually respond to articles when ppl post them so i will side step that issue for now

anyways i agree that tribulation is very soon. MAYBE even this year or next. I do not believe it can be more than a couple years away. It is also an issue very close to my heart and one I study in the word often. I have found that it is true the church doesnt talk about it very much(as in at church buildings) but the actual church of beleivers does speak on it often. I believe the biggest problem with the talks ppl have on it is that 99% of what people believe on it is traditions of dead letter preachers and those who want to make $ on it.

I believe that the bible is completely self sufficent and it is true there is no private interpretation. Meaning that every answer to what scripture means is found IN SCRIPTURE. And when men try to say that prophetic events are things that are not backed up with scritpure we get all kinda tradition. And when flesh tries to save itself we also get that- which i beleive is what pre trib is- even though not all ppl who believe pre trib are trying to save their flesh, they have just inherited a lie and it appears to make sence at first.

If we do not look at the scriptures within the scriptures- and see them as the word interprets them instead of in the letter, and if we do not do this by the Holy Spirit of God then we will not see the truth and we will get all manner of crazy ideas. When in reality the bible is so deeply inner connected that it boggles the mind of the carnal man. I love to discuss prophesy and end times with believers so feel free to message me any time you want to! hope this thread goes somewhere so we can enjoy some good word on it.

 

[Faithful4Christ]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;- 2 Thessalonians 2:3

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. - Matthew 24:22

this, I am confused on. If the days are shortened then they have indeed already begun. Maybe this does not pertain to the Rapture?

So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. - Matthew 24:44

the only time it would be unexpected is before the tribulation..

I just want to hear the thoughts of you guys on these verses, all believers.

 

[veteran]

The 2 Thess.2:3-4 verses pertain to the "great tribulation" timing. And the Matt.24:21-28 verses pertain to tribulation timing also:

Matt 24:21-28
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Except what 'days' should be shortened? The days of the "great tribulation" He mentioned in the prior verse.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

THEN, meaning and then in that time, IF anyone says to you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", don't believe it. What event would have to occur for deceived people to be saying that? Christ explains what kind of event that means in the next verses...

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The phrase "false Christs" is the sole Greek word 'pseudochristos'. Christos is a singular tense Greek word which means 'Christ'. The idea is 'a pseudo Christ', i.e., false messiah. And that false one is to work "great signs and wonders" so powerful in deception, that if possible, it would deceive even Christ's elect. That's how some will be saying, "Lo, here is Christ, or there". Because it will be a false messiah, Christ warned us to not be fooled, don't believe on that false one as if it was Him.

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

Our Lord Jesus Christ repeats His warning about that coming false messiah again.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Lightning shinning from east to west is an expression our Lord used to show how obvious His coming will be when it happens. Rev.1 says "every eye" will see His coming in the clouds with glory. When Christ's coming happens, it won't have to be reported by man, everyone will experience it. He's giving that in contrast to how the false messiah above comes in, that you'll have to hear about false messiah's coming like the way news travels ("Behold, He is in the desert", or "behold, He is in the secret chambers.")

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

That verse goes along with the subject of that false messiah. Our Lord answered His disciples at the last verse of Luke 17 when they asked 'Where to' the first one taken in the field would be to. Jesus linked that gathering to a false gathering, like vultures ("eagles") gathered around dead carcases. The carcase represents the spiritually dead who will be fooled by that false messiah, and will seek to be gathered by him instead of waiting for Christ's coming as the lightning.