[_ Old Earth _] the ethics of stem cell research

[JMM]

By now, I'm sure that most people today are aware of the great debate over the ethics of stem cell research. Stem cells could hold the key to so many new treatments and cures for so many diseases, the possibilities are seemingly endless! From curing and treating diseases, to even healing someone with burns over half of their body.....so much suffering could be alleviated, and lives saved, by stem cells. However, there are some who consider the destruction of the 3-day-old embryos for this research, to be disregarding a human life, and therefore immoral.

Is it immoral? Is it "murder"? Let's examine this, shall we? The 3-day-old embryo in question is referred to as a "blastocyst". The blastocyst is an unorganized cluster of about 150 cells. That may sound like a lot of cells to the untrained ear. But to put it into proper perspective, consider this: there are over 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly! You can't even see 150 cells without the aid of a microscope. And within these 150 cells, there is nothing even CLOSE to anything resembling a brain, a heart, or a nervous system of any kind. There is no consciousness whatsoever, and no capacity for experiencing pain (or anything else for that matter).

So the way I see it, whether or not this blastocyst can yet be considered an actual human life, complete with a soul, is completely subject to personal opinion. As I pointed out in my other thread (about abortion), the Bible does not appear to offer any clear, unambiguous definition of exactly when "life" begins (life that is worthy of our moral consideration). So I believe that it is up to each individual to decide for themselves whether stem cell research is morally right or wrong.

I'll just ask you this: which of the following is more important to you? A 3-day-old blastocyst, which hasn't even decided yet whether or not it wants to divide and multiply itself, or merge with other blastocysts? Or a young girl with life-threatening burns over more than 75 percent of her body, in dire need of life-saving stem cells?

 

[carbon]

I want things black and white. I say life starts at conception.

But I also say, even with that, stem cell research is 100% ethical.

If it's not, then neither is in vitro fertilization.

IVF freezes embryos left over which then are discarded.

Those frozen embryos are the ones used for stem cell research.

Other stem cell research? completely ethically non-hairy.

 

[JMM]

Carbon, thank you for contributing your opinion on this issue. This is a very controversial topic, and I was starting to think that no one on this forum even wanted to go there, considering the lack of responses in the 4 days since I launched this thread.

You're right; I didn't even think of that.....if stem cell research is unethical, then so is IVF, right?

If IVF is ethical, and stem cell research uses the frozen embryos from IVF, then what's the problem?

 

[John]

the lack of responses in the 4 days since I launched this thread.

Due to past events users must acquire permission to post in this forum out of 9000+ members only like 29 people can post here and only a handful of them are active. As for me I'd rather not touch this topic with a 40foot pole at the moment.

 

[lordkalvan]

I don't have a strong opinion on the ethics of stem cell research other than to agree with carbon that, if IVF is acceptable, opposing stem cell research using surplus embryos from IVF that would otherwise be discarded and destroyed is logically absurd. The potential for treating serious and currently untreatable medical conditions that stem cell research appears to offer seems to make opposing it the equivalent of slamming the door on hope for thousands of people currently suffering.

 

[heather]

I've done research on stem cell research, and most of the research that they do, they can do on umbilical cord blood. There isn't any reason why they can't do research on this more.

I don't think that we were meant to play God, and I don't know that if I found out that I couldn't have children, I would go through IVF. There are too many children out there that need and want families, so why not adopt!

I don't think that if someone gets IVF, they should be allowed to discard the embryos. I believe that they are viable life. I know some don't agree, and I'll just agree to disagree at this point.

 

[JMM]

I mentioned before that there are 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly.....there's one other thing I might add to put this into perspective. I don't remember exactly who I heard this from, but I remember someone pointing this out to me (regarding blastocysts):

If 150 cells is considered a life, complete with a soul.....then you're basically committing a Holocaust every time you scratch your nose!

John.....Thanks, I momentarily forgot about the tight reins the mods have on this thread, due to some trouble in the past with certain posters. Fewer people = fewer responses. Makes sense. And I understand if you don't want to throw your hat into this ring just yet. Like I said, this is pretty controversial, and this debate could inevitably end up hurting a few feelings (I apologize in advance to those potentially offended in the future).

Lordkalvan.....Beautifully articulated post. I couldn't agree with you more!

Heatherentz.....You're absolutely right about the research on umbilical cord blood. I don't see how ANYONE could be opposed to more of that. And you're right that potential parents should NEVER overlook the option of adopting a child, when there are so many kids out there who need a good loving home.

 

[carbon]

I mentioned before that there are 100,000 cells in the brain of a fly.....there's one other thing I might add to put this into perspective. I don't remember exactly who I heard this from, but I remember someone pointing this out to me (regarding blastocysts):

If 150 cells is considered a life, complete with a soul.....then you're basically committing a Holocaust every time you scratch your nose!

snipperoo

well...It's not always quantity of cells that matters. Consciousness is a weird thing.

Amoebae are unicellular organisms. Meaning they're a life - that only has 1 cell - and they're conscious. However, the MANY cells in your finger aren't conscious. Technically living though I suppose. Your hair is also a bunch of dead cells. Probably far more than 150. But they're part of a conscious organism.

Anyway, I'm just stating that quantity shouldn't be the only factor to take into consideration.

Also, I think the embryo discarding is a necessary part of IVF. Not a choice the parents make. And no one uses the embryos that are frozen.

Otherwize heatherentz, I think adoption is a great option.

 

[Gabe]

So to be morally consistant, if you consider a human embryo to be life, you should consider IVF to be legalised murder?

 

[Amielou]

I've done research on stem cell research, and most of the research that they do, they can do on umbilical cord blood. There isn't any reason why they can't do research on this more.

I don't think that we were meant to play God, and I don't know that if I found out that I couldn't have children, I would go through IVF. There are too many children out there that need and want families, so why not adopt!

I don't think that if someone gets IVF, they should be allowed to discard the embryos. I believe that they are viable life. I know some don't agree, and I'll just agree to disagree at this point.

I agree that the destruction of an embryo, however young or old and for whatever purpose is ending a life and is wrong. I am not sure where i stand on IVF, but i think that there is no need to 'discard' the 'left over' embryos... I think that if there were no destroyed embryos in the process that i would have no problem with IVF.

This is as always, only my opinion and i do not mean to upset anyone but this is what i genuinely believe.

 

[heather]

So to be morally consistant, if you consider a human embryo to be life, you should consider IVF to be legalised murder?

I'm not really sure. This can be touchy.

For example: Several weeks ago, I was in a situation where I wasn't sure if I was pregnant. I had positive pregnancy tests, but ended up getting my period. My period wasn't normal and was painful. Now, I'm thinking that I may have miscarried. If you want to get really technical, I aborted that fetus, even though I didn't want to. Even though I want/ed to be pregnant, I wasn't in the end. Does that make me and every other woman who miscarries a murderer, even though it's beyond our control?

 

[lordkalvan]

.....Even though I want/ed to be pregnant, I wasn't in the end. Does that make me and every other woman who miscarries a murderer, even though it's beyond our control?

I assume this is a rhetorical question as the answer under any set of ethical standards that are worth anything at all can only be, of course not.

 

[carbon]

I don't consider misscarriage a form of abortion and/or murder.

Misscarriage does not have *intent* behind it.

I also don't believe there's moral inconsistency with those embryos in IVF that get discarded if you consider them a life. Again...intent. I don't believe there is *intent* behind it.

 

[Amielou]

miscarriage is a horrible, and painful (both physically and spiritually) experience and is not something we do deliberately. Murder implies intent. Actually, the previous poster has a good point i had not thought of before, that intent is not necessarily there when the "extra" embryos are "discarded" in the IVF process. However; i do believe that they have a chance to stop it happening (after all, they don't HAVE to throw them away IMHO)... if you were watching someone be threatened with a gun say, or be repeatedly hit over the head with a ... frying pan (random!) say... would you sit by and allow it to happen?? I would say no, personally, and to me, not doing something about a bad thing happening is (ALMOST) as bad as the actual doing, does that make sense?? so in the case of miscarriage, there is no responsibility and no wrong commited as there is / was nothing you / we could have done to prevent it, these things just happen in a sin - filled world, it is not the way it would have been in God's perfect plan, but things here are not perfect now, and never will be until we join our Father in Heaven one day

I am so very sorry for your loss heather

 

[Gabe]

I have no idea why misscarriages are being discussed. The reason I asked the question that I did, was because I assumed that the 'necessary discarding' that Carbon spoke of, was done by the doctors who are performing the IVF treatment, not the patients body. What has this to do with my question & When have i ever implied that a misscarriage is murder?

 

[Amielou]

i don't think you implied miscarriage is murder, this was just a flow on of the topic, as it was what came to mind for one person, and then was discussed by others. i don't think anyone was accusing you of saying miscarriage is murder

 

[Gabe]

Thanks, Amie. You all had me worried for a moment. :halo

 

[heather]

I agree with Amielou. You didn't imply it, however, at the moment, I had remembered a conversation with someone years ago who thought that if you miscarried a child, it was equal to abortion, since unconsciously, our bodies "abort" the child. It was a whole big conversation about abortion, stem cell research, and is it murder?.

 

[heather]

Thank you Amielou. I'm past it now, but I still think about it quite often.

 

[Amielou]

when we were trying for Hailey there was this weird thing that happened with me, not like what you said, but like i always had regular periods till this one time (a couple of months before we conceived Hailey) i skipped one for like 3 weeks, then it came again... so to this day we still don't know what happened, i don't know if we were pregnant then or not... we try not to think about it though, and just focus on the cherub we do have. But i does creep into your mind every now and again...