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The evil stain

I

irichc

Guest
It's quite obvious that we have somehow fallen in the mud from which we were created. It suffices to admit that a natural law exists to appreciate to what extent is the human kind fulfilling it without coaction -fear or hope- in general terms. We can find this law in the common ground of the main religions of the world. My wife, an ex-Buddhist and a Christian nowadays, explained me about the five precepts that every normal man has to observe in her previous creed: 1) don't kill life, 2) don't steal, 3) don't fornicate, 4) don't lie and 5) don't get drunk. The first four points depend on the last one, understood in a wide sense as keeping your consciousness against passion's attack. This and infinite more, that is to say, every natural moral rule -she added- can be summarized in Christian love.

However, if we redefine the first precept as "don't kill without a fair reason" (for instance, protecting an equal good that we cannot otherwise save), none of them is violated by beasts in most cases. That's admirable and should move us to reflection: they are not rational, but they can satisfy a rational law. Never the less, we do it backwards from them, since we break the moral law continuously, and we would do it more often if there was no law or no custom forcing us to reconsider the benefits of being wicked.

Certainly, the stupid creatures slavered by us never make a war, and by the way not usually a war to death, but only for defending themselves from imminent dangers, fight with other predators in order to survive or rival with members of the same species when trying to get a female for later reproduction. They don't love any food not coming from their work. There is no hypocrisy in their kind. They avoid vague sex and waste of energy produced by it. They despise every superfluous pleasure.

Thus, we can deduce that, knowing the existence of this eternal law that even beasts are experts with, and being aware of the man, the most rational creature walking on the Earth, infringing it as he was totally ignorant; in regard of the everlasting rule written in our heart that everyone can read, I say, we can infer that something obnubilates our intelligence and moral sense in a permanent way, preventing us of being faithful to it and naturally perfect.

We can find, I don't deny it, animals whose behaviour -regular or sporadic- seem to break natural principles. But they are just the exception confirming the rule, while a good man is an exception for the whole human race. If crime was something unusual and extraordinary, laws wouldn't be needed at all, because law -Latins said- doesn't care about the insignificant.

What is, then, ruining our understanding and making us be beneath wild animals? Might it be our free will? This is similar to blaming knife for the slash. It is not for the sake of our consciousness that we are falling in the sin, but despite of it. Our oppression, then, isn't in the will, as buddhist think; more likely it's previous to its stimulus. Theologians referred to the original sin when designating this shameful prostration. Islam rejects it, and this should be enough to prove this religion wrong.

Daniel.


Theological Miscellany (in Spanish):

http://www.miscelaneateologica.tk
 
I agree with most of the stuff that you have said.

I believe that animals do not know good from evil. They are innocent creatures that humans slaughter to obtain vital nutrients and that makes me a little uneasy. But God gave us permission to eat of their flesh and still it... bothers me. I don't think that I could kill an animal for food. I guess that makes me a hypocrite.
 
The only "evil stain" I'm aware of is on my couch. And, ironically, it was made by one of those "stupid creatures slavered(?) by us" :wink:

If a good man is such a rarity among our race, perhaps your standards are too high? If we imagine a standard of absolute moral perfection and self-sacrifice, of course everyone would seem, by comparison, stuck in the "mud". But to compare mankind to some absolute standard and then assume that everyone should or can measure up to this standard makes no sense. Why accept animals for what they are and not accept man for what he is? (Would you require every dog be as valiant and self-sacrificing as "Rin-Tin-Tin"? If so, you would raise the standard for that species to an unrealistic level, and Rin-Tin-Tin would have never gotten his (her?) own show as he/she would have just been another normal dog)

If your answer to this is only "The bible says..." then let's just forget trying to apply reason.
 
BradtheImpaler said:
But to compare mankind to some absolute standard and then assume that everyone should or can measure up to this standard makes no
sense.
Interesting I don’t sense that assumption at all. Actually Christians admit, in there theological thinking, that man is incapable of measuring up to perfection. And based on this truth it is also understood by Christians that since man cannot measure up to perfection on his own a savior is needed to make that which is not righteous, righteous.

BradtheImpaler said:
Why accept animals for what they are and not accept man for what he is?
Well, because God put a great responsibility on us humans when he gave us free will and intelligence.
BradtheImpaler said:
(Would you require every dog be as valiant and self-sacrificing as "Rin-Tin-Tin"? If so, you would raise the standard for that species to an unrealistic level, and Rin-Tin-Tin would have never gotten his (her?) own show as he/she would have just been another normal dog)
Of course one would not require that for a dog, or any other animal for that matter. But your argument is faulty because you cannot compare the responsibilities of animals to humansâ€â€that is like comparing Apples with Oranges.

BradtheImpaler said:
If your answer to this is only "The bible says..." then let's just forget trying to apply reason.
So in other words you think reason and the Bible are at odds with one another, interesting…incorrect but still interesting.
 
Interesting I don’t sense that assumption at all. Actually Christians admit, in there theological thinking, that man is incapable of measuring up to perfection. And based on this truth it is also understood by Christians that since man cannot measure up to perfection on his own a savior is needed to make that which is not righteous, righteous

But still it is necessary for man to "measure up to perfection", only through a savior. Why is it necessary?

BradtheImpaler said:
Why accept animals for what they are and not accept man for what he is?

Well, because God put a great responsibility on us humans when he gave us free will and intelligence

How does "responsibility" translate to having to be something we're not? Animals (and lower life forms) just live, they do what comes naturally - and God certainly is under no obligation to change, being already perfect, He just has to be Himself. It seems like we are the only ones who are being saddled with the obligation to "attain this/believe this" or else :evil:

BradtheImpaler said:
(Would you require every dog be as valiant and self-sacrificing as "Rin-Tin-Tin"? If so, you would raise the standard for that species to an unrealistic level, and Rin-Tin-Tin would have never gotten his (her?) own show as he/she would have just been another normal dog)

Of course one would not require that for a dog, or any other animal for that matter. But your argument is faulty because you cannot compare the responsibilities of animals to humansâ€â€that is like comparing Apples with Oranges

Apples and oranges are both fruit. Your premise is that man is not a type of animal, the most intelligent animal. Can you prove that man is not an animal - a mammal, to be specific?

BradtheImpaler said:
If your answer to this is only "The bible says..." then let's just forget trying to apply reason.

So in other words you think reason and the Bible are at odds with one another, interesting…incorrect but still interesting.

"Reason and the bible at odds with one another"...

Now there's a novel thought :wink:
 
BradtheImpaler said:
But still it is necessary for man to "measure up to perfection", only through a savior. Why is it necessary?
It is only "necessary" if we choose to be God's servants. The reason that it is necessary is to help us understand that God, our loving Father, has provided everything we need. We cannot measure up to perfection because we don't need to (keeping Romans 8:1 and Romans 6 in mind).
BradtheImpaler said:
If your answer to this is only "The bible says..." then let's just forget trying to apply reason.
So in other words you think reason and the Bible are at odds with one another, interesting…incorrect but still interesting.
"Reason and the bible at odds with one another"...

Now there's a novel thought :wink:
Correction: Man's reason is at odds with the Bible (Proverbs 3:5-7 and 1 Corinthians 2:13). Read my signature!
 
kwag_myers said:
BradtheImpaler said:
But still it is necessary for man to "measure up to perfection", only through a savior. Why is it necessary?

It is only "necessary" if we choose to be God's servants. The reason that it is necessary is to help us understand that God, our loving Father, has provided everything we need. We cannot measure up to perfection because we don't need to (keeping Romans 8:1 and Romans 6 in mind)

Because we can't measure up to perfection, a substitute is provided to believe on thus making us righteous, without sin, perfect in His sight, etc. But one way or the other, we must be perfect. My question is, why must we be perfect for God to accept us, since we are obviously not perfect by nature?

Correction: Man's reason is at odds with the Bible (Proverbs 3:5-7 and 1 Corinthians 2:13). Read my signature!

Your signature quote is representative of just the sort of thing I would submit if I were defending a belief system that was illogical, irrational, and/or self-contradictory. Does it seem unreasonable? Just tell them they are not allowed to use reason to evaluate it. This is exactly the strategy that leaders of cults like Jim Jones and David Koresh employ - don't question their teachings because it's beyond your thought capabilities to judge it. Problem is, how do you tell truth from error if you forsake your ability to reason things out?
 
BradtheImpaler said:
But still it is necessary for man to "measure up to perfection", only through a savior. Why is it necessary?
kwag_myers provided a wonderful reason.

BradtheImpaler said:
How does "responsibility" translate to having to be something we're not?
Man was perfect at one point, at the beginning with Adam. Adam, in the Bible, did not know sin. Then Adam sinned and as a result all of humanity inherited the sin nature, thus making us imperfect. God had a desire and intention for man and that was perfect but unfortunately man decided to disobey God.

As for this:

BradtheImpaler said:
Animals (and lower life forms) just live, they do what comes naturally - and God certainly is under no obligation to change, being already perfect, He just has to be Himself. It seems like we are the only ones who are being saddled with the obligation to "attain this/believe this" or else :evil:
God is not sinful, so He does not need to change. Humans are sinful and as a result of Humankinds sin the world is falling apart…so that is one very good reason why humans should change.

BradtheImpaler said:
Apples and oranges are both fruit. Your premise is that man is not a type of animal, the most intelligent animal. Can you prove that man is not an animal - a mammal, to be specific?
Man is an animal, however; typically (especially in earlier days) animal referred to those that were not human. As you know words change meaning. So when I say animal I am speaking of all creatures that are not human.

I know Apples and oranges are fruits, I am of course using them as a metaphor to your argument.

BradtheImpaler said:
"Reason and the bible at odds with one another"...

Now there's a novel thought :wink:
kwag_mayers provided a nice answer.
 
BradtheImpaler said:
Your signature quote is representative of just the sort of thing I would submit if I were defending a belief system that was illogical, irrational, and/or self-contradictory. Does it seem unreasonable? Just tell them they are not allowed to use reason to evaluate it. This is exactly the strategy that leaders of cults like Jim Jones and David Koresh employ - don't question their teachings because it's beyond your thought capabilities to judge it. Problem is, how do you tell truth from error if you forsake your ability to reason things out?


Well, you have not proved any proof that the Bible and reason are in contradiction. All you have done is make a statement based on assumption and not fact, and that of course is not a good example of logic. By the way, there is a difference between nonlogical and illogical.
 
Nocturnal_Principal_X said:
BradtheImpaler said:
Your signature quote is representative of just the sort of thing I would submit if I were defending a belief system that was illogical, irrational, and/or self-contradictory. Does it seem unreasonable? Just tell them they are not allowed to use reason to evaluate it. This is exactly the strategy that leaders of cults like Jim Jones and David Koresh employ - don't question their teachings because it's beyond your thought capabilities to judge it. Problem is, how do you tell truth from error if you forsake your ability to reason things out?


Well, you have not proved any proof that the Bible and reason are in contradiction

What kind of "reason" are you referring to? Kwag says "man's reasoning" is out, so what kind of reasoning are you using when you say I haven't proved anything?

All you have done is make a statement based on assumption and not fact, and that of course is not a good example of logic. By the way, there is a difference between nonlogical and illogical

Well, your entire premise is based on assumption, (that the bible is absolutely true), isn't it? Any assumption on my part pales by comparison. Kwag seeks to safeguard the bible from the scrutiny of "man's reason" and you maintain that they are not in conflict after all. Which is it?
 
BradtheImpaler said:
Well, you have not proved any proof that the Bible and reason are in contradiction

What kind of "reason" are you referring to? Kwag says "man's reasoning" is out, so what kind of reasoning are you using when you say I haven't proved anything?[/quote]
Ok, so perhaps kwag_myers is a little incorrect. What I think he means, is that at times humans reason is insufficient to understand certain things about God. In any event, that is what I mean.

BradtheImpaler said:
Well, your entire premise is based on assumption, (that the bible is absolutely true), isn't it?
Good point, it looks like both are arguments have problems considering both base our arguments on assumption.

BradtheImpaler said:
Any assumption on my part pales by comparison.
Subjective truth, I am looking for objective truths here.

BradtheImpaler said:
Kwag seeks to safeguard the bible from the scrutiny of "man's reason" and you maintain that they are not in conflict after all. Which is it?
Ok, now if kwag_myers did in fact intent to convey that then I would have to say I disagree with him on that point.
 
Because we can't measure up to perfection, a substitute is provided to believe on thus making us righteous, without sin, perfect in His sight, etc. But one way or the other, we must be perfect. My question is, why must we be perfect for God to accept us, since we are obviously not perfect by nature?

God wants us to be perfect. He loves us. He is "Love." God is not going to give us a shot at perfection and then if we don't make it give up on us. That's just wrong. He is going to shape us to the very image of Himself.

Man was perfect at one point, at the beginning with Adam. Adam, in the Bible, did not know sin. Then Adam sinned and as a result all of humanity inherited the sin nature, thus making us imperfect. God had a desire and intention for man and that was perfect but unfortunately man decided to disobey God.

God intended that man sin. That is the only way that we could ever mature and achieve perfection. Let's look at it this way. Adam did not know either good or evil; both were in the tree. He was indifferent. He was living in ignorance. This cannot be what God's idea of perfection is. If this is heaven then well... it will be a sort of a hell.

And how is it fair that we inherit Adam's sinful nature? That's not fair for God to curse us for the wrongs of some other person. Is it fair because Adam sinned that we will have to stand trial and be tossed into hell forever? What kind of loving God would do this?

Some times an atheist(Brad) has more sense than a Christian. :-D :-D
 
Some times an atheist(Brad) has more sense than a Christian. :-D :-D

Whoa - didn't say I was an atheist.

No offense taken though :)
 
Gendou Ikari said:
God intended that man sin. That is the only way that we could ever mature and achieve perfection.
:o :o :o
Nooooooooooooo, He didn't.

God made man perfect in His image. It was Man's own sin that was his downfall, with the help of Satan.
 
PHIL121 said:
Gendou Ikari said:
God intended that man sin. That is the only way that we could ever mature and achieve perfection.
:o :o :o

Nooooooooooooo, He didn't

God made man perfect in His image. It was Man's own sin that was his downfall, with the help of Satan

And yet another robotic response. Honestly, do you guys have pullstrings on your backs? Do you ever answer in anything other than cliches? Did you ever ask yourself how it was that man sinned if he was made "perfect"? Or that if man sinned with the help of Satan, that makes the creation of man the second failed attempt for God? (Two failures that He knew beforehand would be disasters) Or why it is that God made sure the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" was readily available for man "not to touch" and that God allowed Satan into the garden to make sure that man had that little extra push he needed to screw up?

Do you believe it is a sin for you to ask questions like these?
 
BTI:

Did you ever ask yourself how it was that man sinned if he was made "perfect"?

I don't know that Genesis ever states that Man was created "perfect". He was created innocent and without the corrupting effect of Sin upon him, but this wasn't necessarily a perfect state of being. To be truly, fully perfect, Man would have to be God, which he is not.

Or that if man sinned with the help of Satan, that makes the creation of man the second failed attempt for God? (Two failures that He knew beforehand would be disasters)

In what "attempts", exactly, did God fail?

Or why it is that God made sure the "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil" was readily available for man "not to touch" and that God allowed Satan into the garden to make sure that man had that little extra push he needed to screw up?

How do you know that God allowed Satan into Eden to "make sure" that Adam and Eve would sin? Aren't both the opportunity and the capacity to do evil necessary for the genuine exercise of free will? The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil wasn't a trap, but a vital part of making Adam and Eve truly moral free agents.

Do you believe it is a sin for you to ask questions like these?

Nope.

In Christ, Aiki.
 
aiki said:
BTI:

Did you ever ask yourself how it was that man sinned if he was made "perfect"?

I don't know that Genesis ever states that Man was created "perfect". He was created innocent and without the corrupting effect of Sin upon him, but this wasn't necessarily a perfect state of being. To be truly, fully perfect, Man would have to be God, which he is not.
Good point, perhaps I should not have used the word “perfect,†now that I think about it would be more accurate to say that God’s creation of us was perfect. Now wither or not we, us humans, were perfect is a different matter.

aiki said:
Do you believe it is a sin for you to ask questions like these?

Nope.
Good response. God wants us to gain understanding and the only way, a lot of the time, to understand something is to ask questions.
 
God wanted man to sin so that He could learn of good and evil. God knew that man was going to sin and if He created them still knowing this, well, what kind of God is he? If He knows that they will be forever tormented in a torture camp He cannot justly create Man. Unless He doesn't have a conscience. Man did not choose to sin. Man has a will but it is anything but free.

I always that that you(Brad) were an atheist. Sorry! What do you believe then?
 
BradtheImpaler said:
PHIL121 said:
Gendou Ikari said:
God intended that man sin. That is the only way that we could ever mature and achieve perfection.
:o :o :o

Nooooooooooooo, He didn't

God made man perfect in His image. It was Man's own sin that was his downfall, with the help of Satan

And yet another robotic response. Honestly, do you guys have pullstrings on your backs?

Nothing "robotic" about it. It's simply a theme that runs through the ENTIRE Bible.

God hates sin! In the Old Testament, He continually punishes Israel for falling into sin. He sent His only Son to die a sacrifice for the ALL sins of man.

I can't see how anyone whose read the Bible in conjuction with the Holy Spirit can come to the conclusion that "God intended man to sin" :roll:
 
Gendou Ikari:

God wanted man to sin so that He could learn of good and evil. God knew that man was going to sin and if He created them still knowing this, well, what kind of God is he?

As Phil121 indicated, nowhere in all of Scripture does it say that God wanted Man to sin. God's foreknowledge of Man's sin doesn't make Him necessarily responsible for it. That God knew ahead of time that Man would sin makes Him omniscient, not evil. What God foreknew included Man's sinfulness, but was not limited to this knowledge. God's interaction with humanity has encompassed much more than this one reality.

If He knows that they will be forever tormented in a torture camp He cannot justly create Man. Unless He doesn't have a conscience. Man did not choose to sin. Man has a will but it is anything but free.

God knows that there is a Hell that awaits those who rebel against Him. BUt there is also a Heaven for those who don't. If people suffering in Hell points to God's injustice and lack of conscience, what does His inclusion of people in Heaven tell us about Him? What does the cross of Calvary reveal to us about this conscienceless, unjust God?

Gendou, you are reasoning from yourself to God. You, the finite and imperfect creature, are attempting to make the infinite, perfect Creator subject to your way of thinking. Can you see a problem with this? I can.

I heard a great analogy to the situation that exists between Man's free will and God's. In a pot of water there are tiny microbes that swim freely. These microbes can swim up or down, or left or right, with any type of motion that suits them. These microbes also may interact with one another as they please. And so they do. But when the pot of water is poured out the microbes can do absolutely nothing about it. All their free motion and interaction with one another makes no difference ultimately to the greater power that executed its will in the pouring out of the water. Likewise, you and I have perfect freedom to carry on as we please in the "pot of water" we call the World. And so we do. BUt, all of our actions, no matter how free, cannot supercede the will of the the greatest power - God - and His execution of His will. He will do, ultimately, with our "pot of water" as He wills, but this doesn't prevent us from freely choosing right or left, or up and down in the motions of our living.

I do recognize that no analogy is perfect, however.

In Christ, Aiki.
 
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