The false doctrine of the 'Secret Rapture'.

[Vic C.]

Hi Vic :

I would like to clear something up .

When were those who are under the altar resurrected ?

Thanks

Hi MM, sorry for the delay.

Who said they are resurrected? What does the OT say about the soul and the blood?

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

This is basically telling us the soul is in the blood, a common belief among the Hebrews in the OT. Remember, God breathed the breath of life into Adam and he became a living soul.

How about Abel? Was he resurrected here?

Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

Now, Isiah tells us the earth is the footstool of the LORD:

Isa 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

If the earth is HIS footstool, then the foot of the alter must also be on the earth (ground). When the priests took the sacrificial blood and poured it among the alter, some of that blood dripped down the legs of the alter and onto (into) the ground.

The book of Revelation has much OT imagery in it. One just cannot read Revelation in a literalistic fashion and ignore the text and imagery of the OT. Now we should be able to read the Rev verses again with a better understanding:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

 

[watchman F]

Even Jesus was worried about those that would be decieved by the pretrib doctrine.
Matthew 24
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Many will turn from their faith because they will believe Jesus has delayed His coming once the Tribulation has started and there has been no rapture.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Vic : "Who said they are resurrected?

----

Hi Vic .

God said !

If you read Rev. 6:10 along with verse 9 it shows us that they are in heaven. The only way to get there is to be resurrected from the dead, and including those who have been gathered up. These souls obviously are not here on this earth !

 

[watchman F]

Quote Vic : "Who said they are resurrected?

----

Hi Vic .

God said !

If you read Rev. 6:10 along with verse 9 it shows us that they are in heaven. The only way to get there is to be resurrected from the dead, and including those who have been gathered up. These souls obviously are not here on this earth !

Sounds like you have one false doctrine fueling the other. Thats the way it works lots of times.

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Vic : "Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

This is basically telling us the soul is in the blood,"

----------------

Hi Vic :

Your statement changes what Lev. 17:11 actually says !

Not only that, but God states here that the blood is given as an atonement for their souls under the law. This was for their sins ! God breathed into the nostriles of the man, and man became a living soul. There is no mention here of the soul being in the blood !

The soul dies because of sin. Jesus shed his blood for us, for the forgiveness of our sins. God is no respector of persons. In Adam all die, including your soul. But the promise of God is based upon the resurrection from the dead. Before anyone ends up in heaven, they must be resurrected from the dead !

When the body dies, the soul dies.

Those under the altar, are those who have been resurrected from the dead/ gathered up from this earth. And as I pointed out in my previous post, they are not here on this earth ! I can't believe you missed that in Rev. 6:10

 

[Vic C.]

Quote Vic : "Who said they are resurrected?
Hi Vic .

God said !

If you read Rev. 6:10 along with verse 9 it shows us that they are in heaven. The only way to get there is to be resurrected from the dead, and including those who have been gathered up. These souls obviously are not here on this earth !

Sounds like you have one false doctrine fueling the other. Thats the way it works lots of times.

Hi Watchman, is that addressed to me?

Hi MM,

I don't believe I was changing the meaning of anything, nor was I suggesting anything other than what the verses I quoted pointed out. I don't "read" Rev. 6:10 as you do. I'm only attempting to point out to you the highly metaphoric and symbolic nature of this Rev. 6 passage.

One has to sift through the OT and various other sources to even attempt to understand this "controversial" passage.

Check this out; it refers to the relationship between the soul and the blood.

from the Jewish Encyclopedia http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... earch=soul

As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it.

Hey MM, I noticed you didn't attempt to dissect any of this with Strong's and the Hebrew and Greek words. ;)

 

[watchman F]

[quote="watchman F":qr7ryc7w]

Quote Vic : "Who said they are resurrected?
Hi Vic .

God said !

If you read Rev. 6:10 along with verse 9 it shows us that they are in heaven. The only way to get there is to be resurrected from the dead, and including those who have been gathered up. These souls obviously are not here on this earth !

Sounds like you have one false doctrine fueling the other. Thats the way it works lots of times.

Hi Watchman, is that addressed to me?[/quote:qr7ryc7w]No it was addressed to Mm. The reason he believe these ones in Revelation 6:10 are resurrected is because apparently by his statement ''The only way to get there is to be resurrected from the dead'' he believes is soul sleep. Therefore his false belief in soul sleep has fueled his false beliefs in multiple resurrections/raptures. Or any resurrection before the 1st resurrection for that matter.

 

[Mysteryman]

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... earch=soul[/url]

As long as the soul was conceived to be merely a breath ("nefesh"; "neshamah"; comp. "anima"), and inseparably connected, if not identified, with the life-blood (Gen. ix. 4, comp. iv. 11; Lev. xvii. 11; see Soul), no real substance could be ascribed to it.

Hey MM, I noticed you didn't attempt to dissect any of this with Strong's and the Hebrew and Greek words. ;)[/quote:2xs8n7jl]


Hi Vic :

I must be slipping, :D

Many believe that the soul is other than what it actually is. God breathed into the nostriles of the first man, and man became a living soul. The spirit of man is not the soul. Apples are apples, the spirit of man is the spirit of man, and the body of man is his body, which returns to dust after one dies, and the soul is the soul.

Here is a simple example : A new car is just a car with all the possibilites of movement and power. But not until you put gas in the tank , and start it up. The potential is there, but you must put the fuel in it , in order that it comes alive/life. The soul of the car is the engine, but only becomes a living car once fuel is put into it. The same with mankind. Its fuel is breath life. Stop breathing and see what happens. If the car dies, because it runs out of fuel, and is sent to the recycle , the engine dies as well. Only when it is resurrected that it comes back to life once again. We read of some who had died, and God put fuel back into them, and they lived once again here upon this earth. But not if they are awaiting the resurrection from the dead .

Lev. 17:11 tells us that the "life of the flesh is in the blood". The soul sinneth and it dies. The flesh is replenished by the blood, but with no breath life, the blood can not replenish the flesh.

Jesus Christ is the first fruit from the dead unto an eternal abode. First means first here. :yes I Corinth. 15:16 - 23

And Watchman:

I do not believe in soul sleep. I have always said that the soul dies !

The phrase - "sleeping in Christ" pertains to the Spirit of his Son in you , which is Christ in you.

 

[veteran]

is this the church, raptured into heaven? revelations chapter 7


After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"


who are they clothed in white who have been slain.? the martyrs chapter 6

If you actually read from Rev.7:9 to the end of the chapter you'll discover those came out of great tribulation, and made their robes white in the Blood of The Lamb (Jesus Christ). So why try to add a pre-trib rapture to that when it's not there at all?

There are two schools of thought, there are Christians who believe they will be spared the tribulation, and the rapture will take place before the tribulation.

Your statement shows the same pre-trib view, not two different views. There's more schools of thought on the endtime rapture than just two. But who cares how many there are anyway. What matters is to have the correct one that God's Word declares.

This being the case, could the rapture, happen today?

No. Maybe you're referring to the doctrine of imminence, the idea that Christ's coming can happen at any time. That's another doctrine of men, and not from God's Word. Christ's coming and the rapture will occur at a set time that only The Father knows. But our Lord Jesus gave us the signs leading up to it so as to stay on watch. That's why only those of His servants on watch know the order of endtime events that are to happen just prior to His coming as written.

if so as many that can be saved need to be saved in time and not left behind!

No one is going anywhere prior to the tribulation, since Christ's coming and our gathering is after the tribulation like He said in Matthew 24. The "left behind" idea is a doctrine of men created along with the Pre-trib "secret rapture" theory in 1830's Great Britain. It was never a doctrine of the early Church, regardless of who thought it up back in history.

For those who feel the church will go through the tribulation, how should the church, Christians be, preparing for this time.?

Practically as well as spiritually.?

Why do you ask this? I sense you already know the answer, but still won't accept it as written.

Do yourself a favour. Get into God's Word for 'yourself', just in case you one day discover those who've taught you the Pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrines were lying. I say that not to insult you, but because I care about your soul. When people go camping, they often bring a first-aid kit just in case they need it. So even if you believe you're going to be raptured prior to the tribulation, it's not going to hurt you to prepare to go through the tribulation, as a first-aid kit for your soul.

Joseph was shown a fat cow and a lean cow, and had seven years to prepare, for seven years of famine.

Should the church be taking the same approach, how long is there to prepare, ?

How long will the tribulation last, ?

Originally in the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel, it was to be 7 years, with a false one coming in the middle of the 7 years. But our Lord Jesus said He shortened the time for His elect's sake. There won't be any safe place to secure stores of food, if that's what you're asking. The only ones of Christ's servants that won't be deceived during the tribulation will be His that are prepared to give a Testimony for Him. All others will be deceived.

How will Christains sustain themselves through the tribulation, if for example they cannot buy or sell?

It's very understandable that those on the pre-trib doctrine don't know what it is that Christ expects of His servants during the tribulation, otherwise those on the pre-trib idea wouldn't be so worried about saving their flesh.

 

[NJBeliever]

The sudden appearance of millions upon millions of people in Heaven in chapter 7 of Revelation is the rapture. The multitude of Revelation Chapter 7 is the Raptured church.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

When Jesus says this He is referring to believers at the time of Day of The Lord being able to escape all of the judgments that are to come and stand before HIM. This is precisely what the Revelation 7 saints are doing. Now the post-trib model will interpret this verse to mean that believers are protected during the Great Tribulation on Earth. But if that is the case then who are the multitude in Rev 7? The post-trib model will then interpret that verse to mean that they are Christians who are killed in one huge simaltaneous killing by the antichrist. Yet, this contradicts the earlier point that saints during this time will receive supernatural protection so they can escape "All these things." It's just a flaw in the model, which is another reason to know the post-trib model cannot possibly be correct.

 

[veteran]

The sudden appearance of millions upon millions of people in Heaven in chapter 7 of Revelation is the rapture. The multitude of Revelation Chapter 7 is the Raptured church.

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

When Jesus says this He is referring to believers at the time of Day of The Lord being able to escape all of the judgments that are to come and stand before HIM. This is precisely what the Revelation 7 saints are doing. Now the post-trib model will interpret this verse to mean that believers are protected during the Great Tribulation on Earth. But if that is the case then who are the multitude in Rev 7? The post-trib model will then interpret that verse to mean that they are Christians who are killed in one huge simaltaneous killing by the antichrist. Yet, this contradicts the earlier point that saints during this time will receive supernatural protection so they can escape "All these things." It's just a flaw in the model, which is another reason to know the post-trib model cannot possibly be correct.

Afraid not. Your statements about those of Rev.7:9 are without backup in God's Word. Here's what the Scripture actually states...

Rev 7:9-17
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He That sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb Which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)

Those verses reveal that great multitude went through the tribulation, which is HOW they washed their robes in Christ Jesus. And the verses following that are about events that only happen during Christ's Milennium, a time after He has poured out God's cup of wrath upon the wicked, and begins to reign all nations with a rod of iron with His elect priests and kings. These are shown on Mount Zion with Christ in Rev.15.

 

[Osgiliath]

Oh my. Those under the Altar are the raptured saints who have been gathered up? Mysteryman, I think I've heard it all now LOL. There is no 'mystery' to this, or mysterious imagery either - it's simply the use of parallel language from the Old Testament that allows this to be easily understood. Look at these OT references and notice where the blood of sacrifices was put:

Leviticus 8:15 Moses slaughtered the bull and took some of the blood, and with his finger he put it on all the horns of the altar to purify the altar. He poured out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. So he consecrated it to make atonement for it."

Exodus 29:12 "Take some of the bull's blood and put it on the horns of the altar with your finger, and pour out the rest of it at the base of the altar."

Leviticus 4:18 "He is to put some of the blood on the horns of the altar that is before the Lord in the Tent of Meeting. The rest of the blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting."

Leviticus 9:9 "His sons brought the blood to him, and he dipped his finger into the blood and put it on the horns of the altar; the rest of the blood he poured out at the base of the altar."

In the Tabernacle (Tent of Meeting), the blood of animal sacrifices was poured into a container that was kept at the base of the Altar of Burnt Offering. When the container at the base of the altar became full, the blood was removed and buried in the ground.

In Revelation 6:9 it says: "I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained." This means those 'under the altar' are sacrifices (i.e. martyrs slain because of their testimony), and this is the reason their souls are represented as being under the altar - because that is the only place where the blood of sacrifices was stored.