The Four Horseman Perspective

[TCC2024]

Greetings. I am new to this forum. I am taking a break from other forums I have been at. This forum looks like a great place to discuss or consider some unique perspectives. I had not been interested in end times for 20 years. But 2016 seemed to start to perk an interest. And by 2017, I was very interested. I never read the book of Revelation until 2017. I am pretrib rapture, but open to how others view things.

I have looked at and considered many end times views. During the past 8 years, the irony now for me is that Revelation is very familiar to me now. In fact, I am more familiar with it than most other books of the Bible. I guess it is because I really had to sift through quite a bit to even make heads or tails of it. Of course there is still a lot of mystery in it for me. But some things do standout somewhat.

My view of the four horsemen I have not seen in any theological book. So admittedly it might not be too stable. But over the course of the past 8 years it has only become more likely, it would seem. If correct, it would seem to be something forming right now under our feet.

Some features:
* Seal 1 and 2 seem to be related -- by use of "and another (went out)." This is the only time of the four this phrase is used. Whereas it could have been for the 3rd and 4th but is not mentioned.

* Anti-Christ Seal 1 -- The church had seen the 1st seal as a good thing for 1800 years. Other than "it can't be good because it mirror's Christ's horse color at the end of the trib." But no culture or history has ever had a white horse as deception. Neither has scripture afforded this anywhere else.

* Horsemen -- This distinguishing seems to separate them from other seals. It would appear this separation been indicative potentially of the earthiness (or coming out from men) of their different origin.

* Seal 5 -- Notice seal 5 is seen from effect in heaven...not as we had seen in formation of boots hitting the ground. Persecution would certainly in many ways be considered, "of the earth" arising from men. Could seal 5 actually be a 5th horseman unstated?

The reason I lay it out this way is that it would appear the four horsemen to be somewhat "transitional." Like, part of the system that morphs into (or overlays upon) the age of grace prior to their arrival (I believe the 4 horseman are not birth pangs but a part of the tribulation or a direct bridge into it--in my view this is key).

So I wanted to lay out some features in the event anyone might be interested in discussing views of the 4 horsemen. I believe the 1st seal in general is a good judgement that serves as a bridge into the tribulation age. This may sound unusual. I understand. But I really have not seen exegesis for the 1st seal. Rather, it seems we are more or less in an age of opinion as exegesis.

If interested I would be happy to share my full view. But welcome any cordial pushback and/or views and perspectives that might be helpful or interesting to consider in our day. Blessings.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings TCC2024,

If interested I would be happy to share my full view. But welcome any cordial pushback and/or views and perspectives that might be helpful or interesting to consider in our day.

You most probably have considered the Continuous Historic view of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. I subscribe to this view and consider that the Seals represent successive judgements on Pagan Rome from AD 96 until AD 312 when the Pagan Roman Empire was overthrown by Constantine, and became the Corrupt Christian Empire.

As far as "our day" is concerned, I consider that we are now in the Sixth Vial period, shortly before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ who will reign from Jerusalem for the 1000 years. I will wait to see how you develop this thread and any interaction from others.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[LeviR]

Greetings TCC2024,

You most probably have considered the Continuous Historic view of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. I subscribe to this view and consider that the Seals represent successive judgements on Pagan Rome from AD 96 until AD 312 when the Pagan Roman Empire was overthrown by Constantine, and became the Corrupt Christian Empire.

As far as "our day" is concerned, I consider that we are now in the Sixth Vial period, shortly before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ who will reign from Jerusalem for the 1000 years. I will wait to see how you develop this thread and any interaction from others.

Kind regards
Trevor

What’s interesting is there are those who understand that the 24 elders and 4 living creatures represent the saints, but yet still deny the rapture.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi TCC2024 and welcome to CF. Glad you took a break and found us. Here is my understanding of the four seals.

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Revelation 6:1-8
First seal - white horse, Matthew 24:5

Second seal - red horse Matthew 24:6

Third seal - black horse Matthew 24:7

Fourth seal - pale horse Matthew 24:8,9

The scoffers say we have always had wars and rumors of war, nations against nations, pestilences, and earth quakes and they are right about that, but do not see the greater sign even here in America that all these things are on a greater scale worldwide and not centrally located anymore. The increase is the beginning of sorrows spoken of in Matthew 24:1-13 and Rev Chapter six as I believe we are into the first six seals with the seventh seal getting closer that begins the seven trumpets sounding. Maybe in our life time or not, it is still coming and now is the time to be prepared for the return of the Lord.

They do not see that of antichrist who will promise peace and show great wonders in the sky that could even deceive the very elect if possible as this false prophet will show that of Christ coming in the air and many will see this false Christ and take the mark of this beast, bowing down and worship the beast, Revelation chapter 13.

Revelation 6:1-8:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

White horse represents a rider with great power and authority as in early wars where Generals would always ride a white horse as they went forth conquering and to conquer. The rider of this white horse is a false Christ as he has a bow, but no arrows which would render this rider in a lesser magnitude of the power of Christ when He comes to conquer and destroys all the abominations on earth: Matthew 24:5, 24; Revelation 19:11-15.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Red horse symbolizes Global war bringing much bloodshed to the land. The rider on the red horse takes peace from the earth and they should kill one another and there was given unto him a great sword: Matthew 24:6-10; Revelation 19:15

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Black horse is a symbol of famine as the rider holds a pair of balances in his hands causing much famine which follows after wars. Many will not be able to afford a days wage in order to feed for their families. Instead of coming to God they reach out to the beast out of the earth as they receive the mark of this beast, Rev 13; 1 Kings 8:37-43; Romans 8:34.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Pale horse is a symbol of sickness and disease that follows after war that causes great famine in the world as many become sick and weak from dehydration and malnutrition and eventually die.

The pale horse riders name is Death. Following Death is Hell which means one that is laid in a grave after they have physically died as you can read in Strong's Exhausted Concordance Hebrew #7585 Greek # 86. Death is not a final destination, but a state of being until Christ returns and all, saint and sinner, will hear the voice of Christ to rise from their graves as some will rise to eternal life and some to eternal damnation, John 5:28, 29, Revelation 20:11-15.

 

[TCC2024]

Greetings TCC2024,

You most probably have considered the Continuous Historic view of the Seals, Trumpets and Vials. I subscribe to this view and consider that the Seals represent successive judgements on Pagan Rome from AD 96 until AD 312 when the Pagan Roman Empire was overthrown by Constantine, and became the Corrupt Christian Empire.

As far as "our day" is concerned, I consider that we are now in the Sixth Vial period, shortly before the return of our Lord Jesus Christ who will reign from Jerusalem for the 1000 years. I will wait to see how you develop this thread and any interaction from others.

Kind regards
Trevor

Interesting perspective. Thanks Trevor. It would appear this to be a blend of preterism with ongoing cycles? I have heard of the increasing seal effect. I am not as aware of trumpets and bowls thrown in cyclically as well. This would be a view that would not see a 7 year tribulation. But a general evolving intensity of seals, trumpets, bowls, and then a direction connection to the thousand year reign of Christ. Blessings.

 

[TCC2024]

What’s interesting is there are those who understand that the 24 elders and 4 living creatures represent the saints, but yet still deny the rapture.

Hi Levi. Thanks for your reply. My perspective is pretty much a pretrib rapture take generically. But I have seen a lot of what I might consider as forced use of the pretrib view. I have seen 15 hours of top flight debate, and I have always seen pretrib come out with the more credible view. Mostly on the merits of debates. But also of course that I believe a 70th week for Israel is pending.

Some in the pretrib camp believe that Rev 4 is a picture of the rapture. And the 24 elders as the resurrected church (although I have never really been acquainted with the 4 living creatures as raptured believers). Admittedly there are things about Rev 4 that do appear to be mirroring the rapture. I am aware there are other good considerations for the 24 elders other than raptured saints. In reference to this thread's view, the view I hold has the church not raptured yet and still on earth at the time of the 1st seal. Yes it is possible in my view for the church to be raptured prior to the 1st seal.

But in some ways that would kind of kill the whole vibe...lol. Because as odd as my first seal view is, having the church still here on earth, my horsemen perspective would understand seal 2 as Ez 38 (which opens a whole other can of worms likely). There are many reasons why...but the main reason would seem to be the historic transfer from age of grace to age of tribulation...introducing Israel to their 70th week. Because of the potential seal one might provide the church, it would not make sense for seal 2 to be Ez 38 and the church not be here for seal one. Which might not make much sense. But at this point I just wanted to say, yeah I understand the importance of the 24 elders to the pretrib view. But ironically the way I am looking at pretrib makes having the 24 elders as the raptured church a problem. Because thereafter the 1st seal is opened, the would already have been raptured before the 1st seal was opened. Its kind of ironic. Thanks for posting on my thread

 

[TCC2024]

Hi TCC2024 and welcome to CF. Glad you took a break and found us. Here is my understanding of the four seals.

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:
2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

Revelation 6:1-8
First seal - white horse, Matthew 24:5

Second seal - red horse Matthew 24:6

Third seal - black horse Matthew 24:7

Fourth seal - pale horse Matthew 24:8,9

The scoffers say we have always had wars and rumors of war, nations against nations, pestilences, and earth quakes and they are right about that, but do not see the greater sign even here in America that all these things are on a greater scale worldwide and not centrally located anymore. The increase is the beginning of sorrows spoken of in Matthew 24:1-13 and Rev Chapter six as I believe we are into the first six seals with the seventh seal getting closer that begins the seven trumpets sounding. Maybe in our life time or not, it is still coming and now is the time to be prepared for the return of the Lord.

They do not see that of antichrist who will promise peace and show great wonders in the sky that could even deceive the very elect if possible as this false prophet will show that of Christ coming in the air and many will see this false Christ and take the mark of this beast, bowing down and worship the beast, Revelation chapter 13.

Revelation 6:1-8:

And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

White horse represents a rider with great power and authority as in early wars where Generals would always ride a white horse as they went forth conquering and to conquer. The rider of this white horse is a false Christ as he has a bow, but no arrows which would render this rider in a lesser magnitude of the power of Christ when He comes to conquer and destroys all the abominations on earth: Matthew 24:5, 24; Revelation 19:11-15.

And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see. And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

Red horse symbolizes Global war bringing much bloodshed to the land. The rider on the red horse takes peace from the earth and they should kill one another and there was given unto him a great sword: Matthew 24:6-10; Revelation 19:15

And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

Black horse is a symbol of famine as the rider holds a pair of balances in his hands causing much famine which follows after wars. Many will not be able to afford a days wage in order to feed for their families. Instead of coming to God they reach out to the beast out of the earth as they receive the mark of this beast, Rev 13; 1 Kings 8:37-43; Romans 8:34.

And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see. And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Pale horse is a symbol of sickness and disease that follows after war that causes great famine in the world as many become sick and weak from dehydration and malnutrition and eventually die.

The pale horse riders name is Death. Following Death is Hell which means one that is laid in a grave after they have physically died as you can read in Strong's Exhausted Concordance Hebrew #7585 Greek # 86. Death is not a final destination, but a state of being until Christ returns and all, saint and sinner, will hear the voice of Christ to rise from their graves as some will rise to eternal life and some to eternal damnation, John 5:28, 29, Revelation 20:11-15.

Thanks For His Glory. I appreciate your welcome. And your chiming in.

I am aware of the seal/Matt 24 path. Although I believe we can see similarities, that view never stuck with me. Primarily because of v29-31. As that path view would lead to those verses being seal 6. Which to me seems to blend far too much into the end of the entire tribulation (7 year period). Plus if Matt 24:4-5 is the first seal, then we have 3 first seals (v11, & v 24)?

Thanks so much for laying all that out. Wow. Yeah so it would seem your view of course different than Trevor in that you don't see so much the repeating of seals, but as they might fit the context also of Matt 24 (being one time events)? If so, yes, this is the view closer to my perspective. The way I would express this is that since Israel is back in a generational sense, it would appear also that the seals would be isolated to a timeframe reference to their historic regrouping as a nation...and not something necessarily throughout history. I believe we share this similar context. But as that being the vibe, I would see then seals to be something planet earth would not have a reference for. Something unique as a judgement type. Something we may not be able to point back to as an example.

Even though huge famines like in Ethiopia or China in the mid 20th century occured historically, the kind of global famine I imagine in seal 3 would be strategically world wide. Unprecidented. So I kind of see seals like the difference between modern day functionality and prehistoric dinosaur period contrast. Like when Trex walks and runs, the earth shakes. The world is not open to those elements today. Incidentally, I am young earth. So I am just using like a mood contrast in how devastatingly different the seals, once they wash upon the shore, would in my perspective hit so so differently than planet earth is used to or orientated as. Which in theory is what makes seal one to me so vastly incredibly fascinating...and thus the jumping up on in here on our forum here.

So we do have some similarities. I would say brother that before some things I'll get into as we go, that kind of twisted me into another view...things that moved me from much of a position as yours. Outside of Matt 24 seal match, just 8 years ago I would have generally seen what you would present and we would have been very much in agreement. Again thanks so much for all the time it took to lay all that out. And thank you for providing what you did for seal one. Because I have never heard anyone come up with that. It is something to consider, why no arrow. And this be a credible concern that gets at the asking of makes it false or less than the real when Christ comes. I really appreciate the grappling with the text from exegetical places like that.

I have seen some bring in the passages like from Jeremiah 9:3 to describe deception. But I would see that as too far removed. Same with the concepts of rainbow (like some see AC as Baphomet) and the bow more like "cloth" or contract, or rainbow constitution. There are several reasons I steer clear of the deception model most of Christianity leans towards in the 1st seal in our day, but on this note I would interject in the hypothesis I propose to be the bow and no sword to simply imply peace. Immediately we tend to go to false peace since seal two is war (and many associate the 1st seal with the covenant with the many not lasting but 3.5 years). In any event Dan 8:25 or 11:23 imply AC as peace by deception (which might be fulfilled in ways in Antiochus and in other ways yet still future--in either case it would not have to necessarily apply to the 1st seal...but It would seem we most commonly do associate it like that).

So yeah, thanks for your breakdown. It is challenging. One thing I have been on the lookout for is historically how did seal 1 go from positive to negative? Like the church for the first 1800 years saw seal 1 as positive. The earliest I have been able to trace it being AC or evil or deception is sometime in the 1800s. But I have not had much success in understanding how it went from one view to another during that century. Any thoughts on that?

I understand though that in part if God so will's us to see, perhaps seeing the 1st seal as AC is the church becoming more aware of its possible context as the days grow closer. So there might be that. I would consider that potential. Some have nuance to the 1st seal as AC, as I have noted and thanked you also for bringing to the discussion. But at the end of the day, I don't see the 1st seal though exactly locked in like we could see prophecies about Christ coming in the first century. Sometimes it seems to be an exercise in how best to apply the word there. And its ok for us not to know I think. Like be ok with it being something we may not be aware it could be. I guess. Just saying.

Well bless your heart for your reply brother.

 

[LeviR]

Hi Levi. Thanks for your reply. My perspective is pretty much a pretrib rapture take generically. But I have seen a lot of what I might consider as forced use of the pretrib view. I have seen 15 hours of top flight debate, and I have always seen pretrib come out with the more credible view. Mostly on the merits of debates. But also of course that I believe a 70th week for Israel is pending.

Some in the pretrib camp believe that Rev 4 is a picture of the rapture. And the 24 elders as the resurrected church (although I have never really been acquainted with the 4 living creatures as raptured believers). Admittedly there are things about Rev 4 that do appear to be mirroring the rapture. I am aware there are other good considerations for the 24 elders other than raptured saints. In reference to this thread's view, the view I hold has the church not raptured yet and still on earth at the time of the 1st seal. Yes it is possible in my view for the church to be raptured prior to the 1st seal.

But in some ways that would kind of kill the whole vibe...lol. Because as odd as my first seal view is, having the church still here on earth, my horsemen perspective would understand seal 2 as Ez 38 (which opens a whole other can of worms likely). There are many reasons why...but the main reason would seem to be the historic transfer from age of grace to age of tribulation...introducing Israel to their 70th week. Because of the potential seal one might provide the church, it would not make sense for seal 2 to be Ez 38 and the church not be here for seal one. Which might not make much sense. But at this point I just wanted to say, yeah I understand the importance of the 24 elders to the pretrib view. But ironically the way I am looking at pretrib makes having the 24 elders as the raptured church a problem. Because thereafter the 1st seal is opened, the would already have been raptured before the 1st seal was opened. Its kind of ironic. Thanks for posting on my thread

My view is that which John sees in heaven is the true tabernacle not made with hands of which the one that was is but a shadow.

The people of the shadow tabernacle were divided into 4 groups of three each. Each group had its own banner. Lion, eagle, man, ox.(4 living creatures)
The cherubim. The cherubim represent those resurrected saints.

 

[for_his_glory]

Thanks For His Glory. I appreciate your welcome. And your chiming in.

I am aware of the seal/Matt 24 path. Although I believe we can see similarities, that view never stuck with me. Primarily because of v29-31. As that path view would lead to those verses being seal 6. Which to me seems to blend far too much into the end of the entire tribulation (7 year period). Plus if Matt 24:4-5 is the first seal, then we have 3 first seals (v11, & v 24)?

Thanks so much for laying all that out. Wow. Yeah so it would seem your view of course different than Trevor in that you don't see so much the repeating of seals, but as they might fit the context also of Matt 24 (being one time events)? If so, yes, this is the view closer to my perspective. The way I would express this is that since Israel is back in a generational sense, it would appear also that the seals would be isolated to a timeframe reference to their historic regrouping as a nation...and not something necessarily throughout history. I believe we share this similar context. But as that being the vibe, I would see then seals to be something planet earth would not have a reference for. Something unique as a judgement type. Something we may not be able to point back to as an example.

Even though huge famines like in Ethiopia or China in the mid 20th century occured historically, the kind of global famine I imagine in seal 3 would be strategically world wide. Unprecidented. So I kind of see seals like the difference between modern day functionality and prehistoric dinosaur period contrast. Like when Trex walks and runs, the earth shakes. The world is not open to those elements today. Incidentally, I am young earth. So I am just using like a mood contrast in how devastatingly different the seals, once they wash upon the shore, would in my perspective hit so so differently than planet earth is used to or orientated as. Which in theory is what makes seal one to me so vastly incredibly fascinating...and thus the jumping up on in here on our forum here.

So we do have some similarities. I would say brother that before some things I'll get into as we go, that kind of twisted me into another view...things that moved me from much of a position as yours. Outside of Matt 24 seal match, just 8 years ago I would have generally seen what you would present and we would have been very much in agreement. Again thanks so much for all the time it took to lay all that out. And thank you for providing what you did for seal one. Because I have never heard anyone come up with that. It is something to consider, why no arrow. And this be a credible concern that gets at the asking of makes it false or less than the real when Christ comes. I really appreciate the grappling with the text from exegetical places like that.

I have seen some bring in the passages like from Jeremiah 9:3 to describe deception. But I would see that as too far removed. Same with the concepts of rainbow (like some see AC as Baphomet) and the bow more like "cloth" or contract, or rainbow constitution. There are several reasons I steer clear of the deception model most of Christianity leans towards in the 1st seal in our day, but on this note I would interject in the hypothesis I propose to be the bow and no sword to simply imply peace. Immediately we tend to go to false peace since seal two is war (and many associate the 1st seal with the covenant with the many not lasting but 3.5 years). In any event Dan 8:25 or 11:23 imply AC as peace by deception (which might be fulfilled in ways in Antiochus and in other ways yet still future--in either case it would not have to necessarily apply to the 1st seal...but It would seem we most commonly do associate it like that).

So yeah, thanks for your breakdown. It is challenging. One thing I have been on the lookout for is historically how did seal 1 go from positive to negative? Like the church for the first 1800 years saw seal 1 as positive. The earliest I have been able to trace it being AC or evil or deception is sometime in the 1800s. But I have not had much success in understanding how it went from one view to another during that century. Any thoughts on that?

I understand though that in part if God so will's us to see, perhaps seeing the 1st seal as AC is the church becoming more aware of its possible context as the days grow closer. So there might be that. I would consider that potential. Some have nuance to the 1st seal as AC, as I have noted and thanked you also for bringing to the discussion. But at the end of the day, I don't see the 1st seal though exactly locked in like we could see prophecies about Christ coming in the first century. Sometimes it seems to be an exercise in how best to apply the word there. And its ok for us not to know I think. Like be ok with it being something we may not be aware it could be. I guess. Just saying.

Well bless your heart for your reply brother.

First I just want you to know I'm a sister and if you are interested I wrote a step by step book on Revelation you can find in the End Times forum under the subtitle Revelation. The book is called "The Unveiling" and you will have to scroll the pages to find Chapter 1-22.

Nowhere in scripture does it mention a 7 year tribulation period, but that which is written in Matthew 24:15-21 as being the greatest and last tribulation that will ever be again. The sounding of the seven trumpets, which no one knows when they will be sounded, with the first six having a beginning and an ending and the seventh trumpet has a beginning, but no ending as that leads up to the 3 1/2 year reign of the last antichrist/son of perdition who will force all to take the mark of this beast up until the time of Christ return.

IMO, I think the first four seals are all ready happening possibly, as what we are seeing of what they have and are bringing on a global scale, even here in America as Satan is ramping up conquering those who have yet to turn back to God.

 

[for_his_glory]

What’s interesting is there are those who understand that the 24 elders and 4 living creatures represent the saints, but yet still deny the rapture.

Please show with scripture that Christ returns before the 3 1/2 year reign of the last antichrist/son of perdition.

 

[TCC2024]

Hi For His Glory. Thanks for your reply. I am not that acclimated in this forum set up. I tried to look through Revelationg link but it just looks to me like several different threads though. I am not noticing a book. In comparison, I have only been looking into the book of Revelation for the past 8 years. Much shorter than your 40. I believe our different orientations in how Revelation might apply will have us naturally come to different observations.

For me, I tried to go with getting a sense of the book from commentaries. But had to put them all down as there was so much vast different senses of even how the book was structured. So I just read it like every day or every other read. I went through it over and over again for a month. Then I developed a simple outline to look for context orientations. And read it several more times over and over again for a month with the outline in mind.

Of course there are there are things that might not be all that clear. Or that we will have our views on (like the 8 kings etc). But in general after several months the sense of how it is constructed seemed to become clearer. Some commentaries percieve chapter 6-19 go back and forth from a heaven or earth view. Some see the 21 judgements cycling simultaneously. Some do not. Some view Revelation as a Chaism and frame a linear map from that framework. So I considered all of these. And what seemed to become clearest to me is that it is written in a literary form known as modular narrative. This was not a known writing style until the 1800s. However we do know there is a sense of this construct from the book of Daniel. Which is not linear.

In addition, it would make sense that Revelation be written in a literary form for the time it is most impacting. Modular narrative, although relatively new, seems to be most strongly practiced in Hollywood. Where stories from around topic more than straight linear fashion. I found out about this style in my own writing classes and modular narrative seemed the most challenging to me. Regardless it what does seem clear is that in general Revelation moves in a linear fashion but does use modular narrative (with flash forward). An example would be chapter 7. We see the 144k there and not again until chapter 14. What makes sense about that is the many souls in heaven in 7 seem to be modularly connected to the 144k win. Who in 7 are sealed throughout trumpets. And appear in 14 again.

In this construction it would seem also that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not simultanously...but rawly linear. We see the 7th seal = the 7 trumpets. And the 7th trumpet = the 7 bowls. And in chapter 15 we see a time signature that the bowls are the last set. This framing on judgement cycles demonstrated them as sequential not simultanous. If we go by this, it would appear than that trumpet 5 is another marker. And demonstrates the power that kills the 2 witnesses. Who would seem to be killed at around the midpoint of the tribulation (if we assume 7 years). At that point the AC kills the two witnesses with the power coming from the 5th trumpet. And cannot do so prior. So we have a time span of 6 seals and 5 trumpets that span the time of the 2 witnesses. Which would seem the best framework is that seals and trumpets are first half.

I understand you don't go with a 7 year timeframe. To me this makes the most sense though because with that assumption it places the AC at that midpoint getting the kind of power that comes from trumpet 5. And since Israel has been a major world player since 1948, understanding a 70th week for them would be a 7 year period. And the pacing of Revaltion seems to reflect this skeletal structure. For contrast, this is in general the flow I would see of Revelation:

1 Intro (and things John has seen)
2-3 Churches addressed
4-5 Intro into tribultion

FIRST HALF
6-9

SECOND HALF
10 -- 144k / Israel Inauguration
11 2 witnesses from begining of trib to midpoint
12 begining of tribulation period to just past midpoint
13 AC focus around midpoint (leading up to with modular narrative focus) + midpoint plus related
14 Official 144k inauguration and table of contents for 2 half of tribulation
15 Inauguration of bowls
16 Demonstration of bowls
17 & 18 Modular narrative focus on Babylon the Great with a heavy lean toward (but not exclusively) the 2nd half
19 Armegeddon

Of course you may see it differently. I'd love to check out your book, but I am not as familiar how to navigate this forum to find it. If you are able to help in this, awesome. Thanks. Blessings dear sister. I did not see male/female indications in profile. I am a brother. Thanks

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi For His Glory. Thanks for your reply. I am not that acclimated in this forum set up. I tried to look through Revelationg link but it just looks to me like several different threads though. I am not noticing a book. In comparison, I have only been looking into the book of Revelation for the past 8 years. Much shorter than your 40. I believe our different orientations in how Revelation might apply will have us naturally come to different observations.

For me, I tried to go with getting a sense of the book from commentaries. But had to put them all down as there was so much vast different senses of even how the book was structured. So I just read it like every day or every other read. I went through it over and over again for a month. Then I developed a simple outline to look for context orientations. And read it several more times over and over again for a month with the outline in mind.

Of course there are there are things that might not be all that clear. Or that we will have our views on (like the 8 kings etc). But in general after several months the sense of how it is constructed seemed to become clearer. Some commentaries percieve chapter 6-19 go back and forth from a heaven or earth view. Some see the 21 judgements cycling simultaneously. Some do not. Some view Revelation as a Chaism and frame a linear map from that framework. So I considered all of these. And what seemed to become clearest to me is that it is written in a literary form known as modular narrative. This was not a known writing style until the 1800s. However we do know there is a sense of this construct from the book of Daniel. Which is not linear.

In addition, it would make sense that Revelation be written in a literary form for the time it is most impacting. Modular narrative, although relatively new, seems to be most strongly practiced in Hollywood. Where stories from around topic more than straight linear fashion. I found out about this style in my own writing classes and modular narrative seemed the most challenging to me. Regardless it what does seem clear is that in general Revelation moves in a linear fashion but does use modular narrative (with flash forward). An example would be chapter 7. We see the 144k there and not again until chapter 14. What makes sense about that is the many souls in heaven in 7 seem to be modularly connected to the 144k win. Who in 7 are sealed throughout trumpets. And appear in 14 again.

In this construction it would seem also that the seals, trumpets, and bowls are not simultanously...but rawly linear. We see the 7th seal = the 7 trumpets. And the 7th trumpet = the 7 bowls. And in chapter 15 we see a time signature that the bowls are the last set. This framing on judgement cycles demonstrated them as sequential not simultanous. If we go by this, it would appear than that trumpet 5 is another marker. And demonstrates the power that kills the 2 witnesses. Who would seem to be killed at around the midpoint of the tribulation (if we assume 7 years). At that point the AC kills the two witnesses with the power coming from the 5th trumpet. And cannot do so prior. So we have a time span of 6 seals and 5 trumpets that span the time of the 2 witnesses. Which would seem the best framework is that seals and trumpets are first half.

I understand you don't go with a 7 year timeframe. To me this makes the most sense though because with that assumption it places the AC at that midpoint getting the kind of power that comes from trumpet 5. And since Israel has been a major world player since 1948, understanding a 70th week for them would be a 7 year period. And the pacing of Revaltion seems to reflect this skeletal structure. For contrast, this is in general the flow I would see of Revelation:

1 Intro (and things John has seen)
2-3 Churches addressed
4-5 Intro into tribultion

FIRST HALF
6-9

SECOND HALF
10 -- 144k / Israel Inauguration
11 2 witnesses from begining of trib to midpoint
12 begining of tribulation period to just past midpoint
13 AC focus around midpoint (leading up to with modular narrative focus) + midpoint plus related
14 Official 144k inauguration and table of contents for 2 half of tribulation
15 Inauguration of bowls
16 Demonstration of bowls
17 & 18 Modular narrative focus on Babylon the Great with a heavy lean toward (but not exclusively) the 2nd half
19 Armegeddon

Of course you may see it differently. I'd love to check out your book, but I am not as familiar how to navigate this forum to find it. If you are able to help in this, awesome. Thanks. Blessings dear sister. I did not see male/female indications in profile. I am a brother. Thanks

Go to Biblical End Times forum and click on that forum. At the top of the page you will see the subtopic "Revelation" just click on that. On page 3 you will find chapters 1 and 9, not sure how they got out of line, but on page 4 is all the other Chapters.

Like you I tried so many different commentaries that ended up confusing me more and more as each one was conflicting to another. I use to believe all those pretrib teachers, but could never see within the scriptures they gave where it even hinted about there being a pretrib Rapture of the Church. So, I decided to clear my mind of everything I was taught and started reading the book of Revelation like I was reading it for the first time. The only thing different this time is that I prayed asking and relying on the Holy Spirit alone to teach me. When writing my book on Revelation, which took a few years after heavy studying and tons of notes, I wrote it verse by verse, chapter by chapter not leaving a verse or chapter before I understood it then continuing until the whole book was done.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but to at least take the many scriptures I have provided and pray and ask the Holy Spirit teach them. I'm just a simple country girl that loves the Lord and want to be pleasing unto Him.

 

[TCC2024]

Go to Biblical End Times forum and click on that forum. At the top of the page you will see the subtopic "Revelation" just click on that. On page 3 you will find chapters 1 and 9, not sure how they got out of line, but on page 4 is all the other Chapters.

Like you I tried so many different commentaries that ended up confusing me more and more as each one was conflicting to another. I use to believe all those pretrib teachers, but could never see within the scriptures they gave where it even hinted about there being a pretrib Rapture of the Church. So, I decided to clear my mind of everything I was taught and started reading the book of Revelation like I was reading it for the first time. The only thing different this time is that I prayed asking and relying on the Holy Spirit alone to teach me. When writing my book on Revelation, which took a few years after heavy studying and tons of notes, I wrote it verse by verse, chapter by chapter not leaving a verse or chapter before I understood it then continuing until the whole book was done.

I don't expect everyone to agree with me, but to at least take the many scriptures I have provided and pray and ask the Holy Spirit teach them. I'm just a simple country girl that loves the Lord and want to be pleasing unto Him.

Thanks. That is no easy task to write a commentary on the whole book. That is quite an undertaking on such a controversial book. My perspective in general as it relates to end times discovery kind of goes more along the line of John 15:15. The more the church acts her honored roll, the more It might be that we see what the Father is doing. So on that note, its not so much accuracy (although yeah we should shoot for that). But more so, it would appear that Christian love in some ways could be an end time super hermenuetic. Because if God shows us beyond our differences, there is no better hermenuetic than that, I believe.

So my hot button in this thread is the four horsemen. Particularly the first. The best exegesis I have heard about the white horsemen being the AC is the covenant with the many. The other forum I belong to, agrees with your take. And that all manner of signs of lying wonders accompany him. I was a regular poster for 4 years until August and so I want to give them a break...lol. They are very loving, kind and patient, but also have bold convictions. Which is healthy for a believer to have.

So I am looking forward to checking out your different observations as we go. On the note for the 1st seal, I understand how it looks to match Matt 24:4-5. But it also states it in v 11 and 24. What makes the most sense for me is this was a discussion at the temple, about its destruction. And the reason was rejecting their Messiah. I believe in Matt 24, not being decieved is first not so much because it occurs first (although we do see huge deception these days for sure). But that it is the most serious bad decision of all responses to a period of judgement. And ultimately: Don't take the mark.

Where Thes 2 talks about lying wonders the flow for me is like what happens in a car crash. Everything ends up in the back seat. Matt 24:24 seems to be the back seat as it demonstrates occurance of v 4-5 in its ultimate condition after highlighting the abomination of desolation. So for me, it would seem Matt 24 to be a list of sorts. Further, I would place wars and rumors of wars denoting 1948 (second world war and Israel on the map) a picking up 2k years after Jesus had that discussion of a time where Israel is becoming activated again. We have seen great famines too in the past 100 years.

As for the notion of the 1st horse being Jesus, I understand why some might shoehorn that in. It is curious to me though that it might be somewhat of a logical fallacy of either/or. If not Jesus it must be AC. The way I view the first seal is that it is the reflection or mirror of Christ. But not Christ Himself. Mirror in how it relates both to Israel and the fallen gentile world. For Isreal it would mirror a promise to come of their 1,000 year reign of Him. An apocalyptic style taste of their promised rule to come...wink wink...like. For gentiles, it would reflect upon the best fallen government can be. And the judgement? The NWO tanking. Quite contrary to most watcher familiar views.

Ezekiel talk about God not wanting the death of the wicked. I would I guess use the character of God in that sense as a hermenuetic for end times. During a time while most of the watcher awake church we see NWO, beast system forming, Babylon the Great forming. The ten nation confederacy etc. Well we certainly see evil increase. But I kind of have a different general view eschatologically that places me unfortunately in no ones camp. I believe Luke was Jewish. And there are no gentile writers of the Bible (with the small exception of king of Babylon in chapter 4 of Daniel). I think in general the church can become aware of some things. But generally (as a cessationist) I would not see the church having the ability to size up prophecy and inform the world precisely on it. Because I would not see the church as holding a prophecy office. But rather a providential one. We are children of Providence (Romans 10 & 11), as I see it. The bride (perhaps a higher office than prophet but not seemingly also to much include prophecy).

So with all that said, it would make ironic sense that we the church might not get it too clearly. Having good faith in trying. And again, I believe God will likely show the church things. But it almost becomes a hermautic itself that the church cannot exactly be correct because we are not the writers of scripture. Israel was. And to that extend, eyes on Israel is an emblamtic move of God prophetically perhaps. So this is nothing against writing commentaries. For God has given teachers to the body of Christ. Its just that I percieve the church will likely not have the most ear to the ground sense as much as it might have when considering providence. For I would percieve prophecy for the church to see is contained much in Providence. Since the church would not exactly be a prophecy vehicle in my view.

When we look at the first seal, there is no history in any culture that a white horse posses as false. There is no white horse in scripture that represents deception (accept the exhibit A). The white horse we do see in Zachariah seems to imply Cyrus. A victor for the Jews. And true peace when a king rides in to town not posturing harm. So if there might be a sense of accuracy in the 1st seal being the destruction and judgement of the NWO (New World Order) it would most likely imply that the US Constitution would be a useful tool for it. And also likely through Trump.

I know there is a lot of talk out there about Christian Nationalism. But that is a desire of some of the people. The vantage point I am viewing this from is from an actual judgement cycle from God. So if Trump wins, and Saudi Arabia normalizes with Israel...that stands to be an extremely good candidate for the 1st seal...occuring...right under our noses. And we know where that goes.

I commend you sister for taking on such a writing project in such love and care for the body to want to prepare us for disollusionment. Or for hard times. I think that is wise and caring. One thing you and I have in common? We both believe the church will be here for the first seal. That we will see it. And if my notions have any accuracy...its kind of currently forming now. As we speak. It would become quite the plot twist. And likely through the world at large off balance Thanks for your generous replies. I look forward to seeing some other views you have in Revelation.

PS--If it might seem that my having my view of the 1st seal to be somewhat prophetic, I don't really think that is how I am thinking about it. These are just observations I believe anyone could generally pick up on providentially. In some ways it is an exercise of dumbing oneself down. Like looking at street graffiti as prophecy. Feels silly some times to consider. But 1 Cor 1:27-31 would apply if so. And then there is of course that I dumbed my self down a little to much to see clearly too. Blessings.

 

[for_his_glory]

Hi TCC2024 and thank you for letting me into your thoughts on all of this.

You will find that I never run with a socially acceptable word of God as in a majority rule types of teachings that are out there, but only rely on that which has already been written. There are many things I am yet to understand, but that which I do I give. I probably have more that disagree with me then I have that do agree, but that doesn't bother me as I ask no one to agree with me, but to take the scriptures I give and study them for themselves as I have. I use to believe the Rapture theory and a literal 1000 year reign, but not anymore according to what has been written separating what man teaches from that which Jesus already taught. What I read in Matthew 24 is like an outline of that which draws deeper in the book of Revelation. Revelation is for everyone, Jew and Gentile, but not everyone will study it saying it's just to hard to understand. One thing I will say is that Revelations covers that from Genesis through all of the books of the Bible and it does take a lot of researching the scriptures, praying and allowing the Holy Spirit reveal all the prophecies within it. It's been my passion for many years.

I thank you for the good conversations and God bless you.