The Four Kingdoms of Daniel

[n2thelight]

What are the four kingdoms written of in the book of Daniel?

 

[Sinthesis]

Where in Daniel specifically?

 

[Lehigh3]

What are the four kingdoms written of in the book of Daniel?

Yes, I think you mean the 4 kingdoms in Daniel 2?

1) Babylon 2) Medio-Persia 3) Greece 4) Rome

from planetpreterist:

Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon is identified as the kingdom of gold in Daniel 2:38, and it is a fact that this kingdom did indeed stand out among its contemporaries for its splendor, which included the lavish display of pure gold in statuary, altars, furnishings, drinking utensils, and jewelry, as well as numerous gold-plated decorations on buildings. On the other hand, the New Babylonian kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar failed to develop the use of silver coinage, and it is doubtful that its use of bronze and iron noticeably surpassed that of other nations.
The Persian Empire of Cyrus the Great was, in reality, an extension of the Median Empire that had been assembled by Cyaxares, who was probably a maternal great-grandfather of Cyrus. Historically, therefore, it is correct to view the empire that Cyrus took over as a Medo-Persian empire. In fact, while the Book of Daniel indicates that Darius the Mede briefly ruled in Babylon, it otherwise consistently treats Media and Persia as forming a united kingdom. In 546, Cyrus conquered the kingdom of Lydia in Asia Minor, thereby gaining possession of that nation’s ores of precious metals and the technology that had allowed it to develop the world’s first high-quality gold and silver coins. Cyrus and the rulers who followed him used their ability to mine and coin silver to assemble a force of mercenary warriors of unprecedented size. Gold was also important to the these rulers (the Achaemenids), but with gold being used to designate Babylonia, it is silver that stands out has having a had a particularly strong association with the what is called the Persian Empire.
Although the Bronze Age of archeological fame had been superseded by the Iron Age by the time of the New Babylonian kingdom, the Greeks continued to make conspicuous use of bronze long after iron became the preferred metal for most weapons. Particularly noteworthy is that Greco-Macedonian soldiers characteristically wore protective armor of bronze, including helmets, shields, greaves (shin guards), and, climate permitting, breastplates. Their bronze armor stood in marked contrast to the tunics that were typically worn by the Medes and Persians. The Greeks also armored their famed triremes with bronze plates and provided them with a bronze-headed battering ram. They even used bronze hardware for these naval vessels. Also of note is the fact that Ezekiel 27 provides a valuable account of the trade between Tyre and various locations in which Greece (Javan) is identified as a source of slaves and bronze. Given all this evidence, Greece obviously qualifies as the bronze kingdom when historical association is allowed to be considered.
And just as Greece qualifies as the kingdom of bronze, Rome stands out as the kingdom of iron. Rome’s military technology surpassed that of even the Greco-Macedonian forces of Alexander’s day. While Roman soldiers sometimes wore bronze helmets, their armor, in contrast to that of the Greeks and Macedonians, was overwhelmingly of iron. Like the Greeks and Macedonians, the Romans had iron swords and iron-tipped pikes and javelins, but they also had a type of “artillery†consisting of iron-tipped bolts fired by catapults. Some Roman ships carried bronze battering rams like those used by the Greeks, but the Romans relied more heavily upon iron armor and hardware. Moreover, the Romans developed the use of the corvus, a gangplank with a large iron spike at its far end. When boarding an enemy ship, the corvus would be flipped over so that it stuck into the deck of the enemy vessel, and Roman soldiers would then scramble over it to attack their foe. Finally, we need to recall that Daniel 2:40 calls attention to iron’s ability to crush and break other things and specifically relates that ability to the fourth kingdom’s ability to crush other kingdoms.

And since my fellow preterists describe the "feet & toes" of the Roman empire in a separate section- I will conclude with my statement that the "clay mixed with iron" is the Roman empire & the holy land Judea (as the clay) The prophecy is focused on Jerusalem & Judea -& they were a puppet nation under Roman rule at the time of Herod sitting as the king- & the time of the kingdom of God to be a rock "cut out of the mountain." The Jews were the "potter's clay" (Isa.64:8; Jer.18:6) And they would at that time be mixed with "the seed of men" ie: the pagan Romans. (and worship that Beast too!)

 

[Beck]

I would some what differ in my undertstanding of the four kingdoms. I would give a order as to this: 1) Babylon 2) Medio 3) Persia 4) Greece and from this fourth kingdom a little horn shall arise then we know from chapter 8 this is refering to one of the four division of that kingdom. In which Seleucid this little horn described that descrated the temple would be Antiochus IV. In the following chapters like 11 Daniel gives us what know is history between two of the four divided kingdoms as to Selecuid and Ptolemies kingdoms.

 

[Lehigh3]

I would some what differ in my undertstanding of the four kingdoms. I would give a order as to this: 1) Babylon 2) Medio 3) Persia 4) Greece and from this fourth kingdom a little horn shall arise then we know from chapter 8 this is refering to one of the four division of that kingdom. In which Seleucid this little horn described that descrated the temple would be Antiochus IV. In the following chapters like 11 Daniel gives us what know is history between two of the four divided kingdoms as to Selecuid and Ptolemies kingdoms.

While Daniel chapter 8 & 11 deals with the remnants of the Greek empire & the Greek empire respectively- there are no 4 kingdoms listed in Daniel that end with Greece. Medio-Persia was all one empire. Daniel chapter 11 ends with the show of the 4th kingdom also - the Romans (who plundered Egypt)

Daniel ch. 8 deals with the 4 kingdoms (the Greek breakup) which would eventually be 2- North & South) after Alexander died.


Antiochus IV is the little horn of Daniel 8-

Titus is the 11th horn of Daniel 7.

So now we do have to know which chapter in Daniel you are referring to n2thelight!

And Beck, the 4 are 4 "horns" of Daniel 8- not worded as "kingdoms" Horns mean powers.
But I think n2thelight meant the "kingdoms" in Daniel 2& Nebuchadnezzar's statue.

 

[ezrider]

And since my fellow preterists describe the "feet & toes" of the Roman empire in a separate section- I will conclude with my statement that the "clay mixed with iron" is the Roman empire & the holy land Judea (as the clay) The prophecy is focused on Jerusalem & Judea -& they were a puppet nation under Roman rule at the time of Herod sitting as the king- & the time of the kingdom of God to be a rock "cut out of the mountain." The Jews were the "potter's clay" (Isa.64:8; Jer.18:6) And they would at that time be mixed with "the seed of men" ie: the pagan Romans. (and worship that Beast too!)

Lehigh3,

I am new to this forum and have been looking through some of the older posts. You said there is a separate section discussing the "feet and toes"; where might that be? I would like to read through it before I make any comment on the subject.

Thank You

 

[Beck]

While Daniel chapter 8 & 11 deals with the remnants of the Greek empire & the Greek empire respectively- there are no 4 kingdoms listed in Daniel that end with Greece. Medio-Persia was all one empire. Daniel chapter 11 ends with the show of the 4th kingdom also - the Romans (who plundered Egypt)

Greetings Lehigh3,

I understand your position well for I once saw it the same, but over time it seem to fit best as I stated above. One reason is that in Daniel chapter 8 and 11 only showed and or spoke of two kingdoms is because he was only dealing with those that ruled or attempted to rule over Israel. We see this battle between the south and north kings in chapter 11 were in verse 21 it stated that "in his estate shall stand up a vile person" in my opinion it's refering to Antiochus IV where in verse 22 he shall brake the prince of the covenant or high priest Onias III.

This same picture of two can be taken from the image of a man from the dream by Nebuchadnezzer where the image has legs of iron (which is two). So the image would be 1) Head of God (Babylon). 2)Breast/arms of Silver (Median) 3)Belly /Thighs of Brass (Persia) 4)Legs of Iron (Greece). But more in particular the divided kingdom of Greece of Seleciud and Ptolemies. If you have notice Daniel didn't keep to how these kingdoms was divided. For instants the second kingdom was of three parts the breast and two arms and the opposite in the fourth kingdom were only two legs while yet there were four kingdoms divided from the greece kingdom.

We also would have to take into account that Daniel is told that the end would come in the latter days of the prince of Persia and the prince of Grecia.(ch.10) Then continues in chapter 11 concerning these princes of Persia which where four and one of these would stir up all against the realm of Gercia. One of these would have been Cyrus in the third year of his reign is when Daniel was told concerning these princes and the latter days.

So if we take from chapter 7 that from this fourth beast kingdom [Greece] a little horn was to arise and speak words against the most high and wear out the saints and was given to him a time times and dividing of time (3.5 years) Even in chapter 7 this fits what Antiochus IV did as he killed the high priest Onias III and placed whom he would over the people and then persecuted them and made their sanctuary desolated of the daily for a period of 3.5 years. So it is my belief that chapters 7 & 8 show the very same 'little horn' as Antiochus.

Let me say this that although I see this little horn in Daniel as Antiochus IV I see this as a type and shadow of the real antitype which is what Jesus warned this audience that was to come and in fact did come in the year of AD70 with the destruction of the sanctuary.

Daniel ch. 8 deals with the 4 kingdoms (the Greek breakup) which would eventually be 2- North & South) after Alexander died.

Yes, Have you considered why ony mention the two I think that become important in our understanding?

Antiochus IV is the little horn of Daniel 8-

No doubt.

Titus is the 11th horn of Daniel 7.

Using Daniel's vision as a type and shadow then I can see were Titus would be a little horn, but I don't think this was whom is shown in Daniel 7. Daniel seemed to not understand the vision and especailly the little horn (19-21) He once agian has a vision which is of these farm animals. Daniel still don't get it so it is interperted for me (and us). Sence we both agree that ch.8 is Antiochus must it not be the same given that Daniel didn't understand ch. 7?

So now we do have to know which chapter in Daniel you are referring to n2thelight!

Right :yes

And Beck, the 4 are 4 "horns" of Daniel 8- not worded as "kingdoms" Horns mean powers.

Hmm, Well when the great horn of Grecia was broken there were four 'kingdoms' stood up.(v.22) How I understand that in ch.7:24 when speaking of the ten horns out of this kingdom was ten kings. I understand what you're getting at, but would say that I'm not to sure about that verses translation or application of 'kings'. I would think it's would be more in line of prince as Daniel used before, but that's me.

But I think n2thelight meant the "kingdoms" in Daniel 2& Nebuchadnezzar's statue.

That's how I took it as well.

Beck

 

[n2thelight]

Yes Im referring to the kingdoms in chapter 2 but my specific reason for asking was,if Daniel prophecised the fall of Rome,how could all prophecy be done in 70ad?

 

[Beck]

Yes Im referring to the kingdoms in chapter 2 but my specific reason for asking was,if Daniel prophecised the fall of Rome,how could all prophecy be done in 70ad?

Greetings n2thelight,

Well as I stated my beliefs and understanding of Daniel's visions is rather seems to be pointing to the fourth kingdom of Greece with it's division and the little horn according to chapter 8 interperts enough that we come away with the understanding that the little horn mentioned is Antiochus IV from the Selecuid kingdom.

I see this as a type that would later become the real event as descibed by John in Revelation. While Daniel is a type of fulfillment it shouldn't be read as being part of the final fulfillment. I also don't like the term dual fulfillment, but rather see it as an typology that would later be fulfilled in the antitype of the temple destruction in 70AD.

That said, I don't see where Rome was the fourth kingdom of Daniel, but do see it's fulfillment of Revelation of the beast that rise out of the sea. Also I would like to mention that the fall of Rome as the beast wasn't what Revelation prophesied about either, but that Rome was the vehicle [ride upon]that the woman [Israel] used to persecute the saints. We see this very same vehicle being used by the crucifixion of Jesus where the Jewish counsel ruling with the kings of the earth. Peter gives full account of this in Acts 4:5-28. Peter said that it wasn't the Roman's that killed the Lord Jesus but them.


Also one thing from Daniel was that he was told that these things that concerned his visions of the fourth kingdom would come to pass in the latter days the end. The implcation is that in the latter days of that kingdom the end would come. Meaning the ending of their persecution by this beast kingdom which ruled over them. According to this the ending came to pass and they cleanned the temple to restore the daily offerings. This parallel usage of the latter days can be found used by Peter in Acts.

Another thing to consider is how was the kingdom of God going to possess that kingdom. It wouldn't come that the saints made war with Rome and would win, but that through the preaching and teaching of the word of God that they no more had their swords but would beat them into plows as to planting and sowing good seed. That is how the kingdom would be win.

Hope I helped and and made sence and not ramble on.

Beck

 

[Lehigh3]

Yes Im referring to the kingdoms in chapter 2 but my specific reason for asking was,if Daniel prophecised the fall of Rome,how could all prophecy be done in 70ad?

Not sure what you mean here. Daniel doesn't prophesy the "fall of Rome."

What he does say is that the Kingdom (the Messianic kingdom) "shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. Inasmuch as you saw that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze,, the clay, the silver, and the gold- the great God has made known to the king what will come to pass after this. The dream is certain, and its interpretation is sure." (Dan.2:44-45).

This is prophecy. It is like poetry. This was to be the end result. It isn't so much that the fall of the Roman Empire politically is being mentioned here. It is more of a "religious" or "spiritual" statement meaning that the Messiah's kingdom will rule the nations (including Israel as the clay) with a rod of iron- both morally & spiritually.

This prophecy is continued in Daniel 7. Note that Daniel's books- not all of them are in chronological order. In Dan.7, Babylon still rules over Israel. The 4 "Beasts" Daniel will see will represent the same kingdoms in the same order.
Babylon, Medio-Persia, Greece, Rome.

Daniel will describe the "eleventh horn" or "little horn" in Daniel 7, under the fourth beast (Rome) This is/was Titus, Vespasian's son- who destroyed Jerusalem & the temple. What was destroyed was "Satan" in the beast -who gave his power to beast. And Israel after the flesh, who worshiped the beast instead of Christ.