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The fundamentalist mindset

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(Apparently only myself, Dorothy Mae and Mister E even look at this forum, so this will be my last thread here. I don't believe I'm unorthodox at all, or that this thread is unorthodox either, but the standard of these forums seems to be that "unorthodox" is roughly defined as "You wouldn't hear that in Vacation Bible School" or perhaps "Go away, we don't want to have to think about stuff like that.")

Fundamentalists are everywhere, not just in religion. The New Atheist movement is full of them. The JFK assassination conspiracy community is full of them. The scientific community is full of them.

I have extensive experience with all these groups. I don’t know how many times I’ve pointed out to an atheist that his atheism is the functional equivalent of a religion and he's a closed-minded fundamentalist zealot just like the Christian “fundies” he detests.

What do all fundamentalists have in common? They’re wedded to a particular paradigm – for most fundamentalist atheists and scientists, its naturalistic materialism – and won't even consider anything that might challenge the paradigm. They're more interested in “defending the paradigm” than “the truth.”

Philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn brilliantly described how this works in his classic, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

Mountains of evidence challenge the materialistic paradigm. An honest seeker of truth would confront this evidence. Perhaps he would remain a materialist, but he would deal with the evidence.

A fundamentalist can’t allow the tiniest crack in his paradigm. Conflicting evidence must be shouted down and ridiculed. We see this all the time as the proponents of Intelligent Design attempt to get a fair hearing by the scientific community. They are dismissed as "closet Creationists," their work is ridiculed as "pseudoscience."

Are Christian “fundies” any different? (I’m not using the term in any technical way, but in the way most people now understand it, as an extreme Bible literalist.) I don’t think so. It’s basically the exact same mindset.

Christian fundies, of course, think they’re pleasing God. They are what God wants – true believers who are interested only in promoting and defending the paradigm God wants promoted and defended (as they conceive of it).

Nothing about Christianity, as far as I can see, demands the fundamentalist mindset. The Bible certainly doesn’t. The vast majority of Christians over the centuries haven’t had the fundie mindset. Even today, the fundamentalist community, noisy as it may be, is viewed mostly as a curiosity by other Christians.

The fundie mindset is really a way to hide from truth, not defend it.

Why, then, do people adopt the fundie mindset? It makes life simple. It provides a rock of certainty, a security blanket, in an uncertain world. Christian fundies may sincerely believe they're pleasing God.

To me, even if what fundies believe is 100% correct, adopting the fundie mindset is a mistake. The truth will survive scrutiny and questioning. If a doctrine is true, scrutiny will only increase one’s appreciation and understanding of it.

The fact is (to take one obvious example), the Bible won’t survive scrutiny as the 100% literally true Word of God, correct and inerrant in everything it asserts, whether theological, historical or scientific. Clinging to a notion such as this does more harm than good, both to the believer who clings to it and to those who can see what he is doing.

I can live with a fair amount of uncertainty, ambiguity and mystery in my Christianity. Fundies can’t – and that’s their loss, in my opinion.
 
...
To me, even if what fundies believe is 100% correct, adopting the fundie mindset is a mistake. The truth will survive scrutiny and questioning. If a doctrine is true, scrutiny will only increase one’s appreciation and understanding of it.
...
Yes! And when a Truth is revealed, it cannot be prevented from reaching it's target.
 
(Apparently only myself, Dorothy Mae and Mister E even look at this forum, so this will be my last thread here. I don't believe I'm unorthodox at all, or that this thread is unorthodox either, but the standard of these forums seems to be that "unorthodox" is roughly defined as "You wouldn't hear that in Vacation Bible School" or perhaps "Go away, we don't want to have to think about stuff like that.")

Fundamentalists are everywhere, not just in religion. The New Atheist movement is full of them. The JFK assassination conspiracy community is full of them. The scientific community is full of them.

I have extensive experience with all these groups. I don’t know how many times I’ve pointed out to an atheist that his atheism is the functional equivalent of a religion and he's a closed-minded fundamentalist zealot just like the Christian “fundies” he detests.

What do all fundamentalists have in common? They’re wedded to a particular paradigm – for most fundamentalist atheists and scientists, its naturalistic materialism – and won't even consider anything that might challenge the paradigm. They're more interested in “defending the paradigm” than “the truth.”

Philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn brilliantly described how this works in his classic, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

Mountains of evidence challenge the materialistic paradigm. An honest seeker of truth would confront this evidence. Perhaps he would remain a materialist, but he would deal with the evidence.

A fundamentalist can’t allow the tiniest crack in his paradigm. Conflicting evidence must be shouted down and ridiculed. We see this all the time as the proponents of Intelligent Design attempt to get a fair hearing by the scientific community. They are dismissed as "closet Creationists," their work is ridiculed as "pseudoscience."

Are Christian “fundies” any different? (I’m not using the term in any technical way, but in the way most people now understand it, as an extreme Bible literalist.) I don’t think so. It’s basically the exact same mindset.

Christian fundies, of course, think they’re pleasing God. They are what God wants – true believers who are interested only in promoting and defending the paradigm God wants promoted and defended (as they conceive of it).

Nothing about Christianity, as far as I can see, demands the fundamentalist mindset. The Bible certainly doesn’t. The vast majority of Christians over the centuries haven’t had the fundie mindset. Even today, the fundamentalist community, noisy as it may be, is viewed mostly as a curiosity by other Christians.

The fundie mindset is really a way to hide from truth, not defend it.

Why, then, do people adopt the fundie mindset? It makes life simple. It provides a rock of certainty, a security blanket, in an uncertain world. Christian fundies may sincerely believe they're pleasing God.

To me, even if what fundies believe is 100% correct, adopting the fundie mindset is a mistake. The truth will survive scrutiny and questioning. If a doctrine is true, scrutiny will only increase one’s appreciation and understanding of it.

The fact is (to take one obvious example), the Bible won’t survive scrutiny as the 100% literally true Word of God, correct and inerrant in everything it asserts, whether theological, historical or scientific. Clinging to a notion such as this does more harm than good, both to the believer who clings to it and to those who can see what he is doing.

I can live with a fair amount of uncertainty, ambiguity and mystery in my Christianity. Fundies can’t – and that’s their loss, in my opinion.
What is left to say?
I think you've answered your own questions.

Fundamentalists cannot have their paradigm challenged, probably for the reasons you've stated...a closed mind, fear of the truth, it makes life simple - no thinking involved.

We know the universe is 15 billion years old.
It's not accepted.

We know dinosaurs roamed the earth. It's not accepted.

Cavemen. How do they fit into that paradigm?
Better not to ponder it.

Where did Adam's son's spouses come from?

How come a God of love killed children?

A person has to be willing to consider this type of question and also arrive at some solution...at least for himself personally.

But wait...
Are we watering down Christianity
Or
Has it survived anyway?

I opt for no. 2
 
(Apparently only myself, @Dorothy Mae and @Mister E even look at this forum, so this will be my last thread here. I don't believe I'm unorthodox at all, or that this thread is unorthodox either, but the standard of these forums seems to be that "unorthodox" is roughly defined as "You wouldn't hear that in Vacation Bible School" or perhaps "Go away, we don't want to have to think about stuff like that.")
I think having your post 'considered' unorthodox can be a desirable distinction. Let's face it, do you really seek to be orthodox in the world today?

I hope you keep posting your ideas/thoughts/renderings/whatever. If they contain Truth, how else will you expose others who frequent this forum to it?
 
(Apparently only myself, Dorothy Mae and Mister E even look at this forum, so this will be my last thread here. I don't believe I'm unorthodox at all, or that this thread is unorthodox either, but the standard of these forums seems to be that "unorthodox" is roughly defined as "You wouldn't hear that in Vacation Bible School" or perhaps "Go away, we don't want to have to think about stuff like that.")

Fundamentalists are everywhere, not just in religion. The New Atheist movement is full of them. The JFK assassination conspiracy community is full of them. The scientific community is full of them.

I have extensive experience with all these groups. I don’t know how many times I’ve pointed out to an atheist that his atheism is the functional equivalent of a religion and he's a closed-minded fundamentalist zealot just like the Christian “fundies” he detests.

What do all fundamentalists have in common? They’re wedded to a particular paradigm – for most fundamentalist atheists and scientists, its naturalistic materialism – and won't even consider anything that might challenge the paradigm. They're more interested in “defending the paradigm” than “the truth.”

Philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn brilliantly described how this works in his classic, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

Mountains of evidence challenge the materialistic paradigm. An honest seeker of truth would confront this evidence. Perhaps he would remain a materialist, but he would deal with the evidence.

A fundamentalist can’t allow the tiniest crack in his paradigm. Conflicting evidence must be shouted down and ridiculed. We see this all the time as the proponents of Intelligent Design attempt to get a fair hearing by the scientific community. They are dismissed as "closet Creationists," their work is ridiculed as "pseudoscience."

Are Christian “fundies” any different? (I’m not using the term in any technical way, but in the way most people now understand it, as an extreme Bible literalist.) I don’t think so. It’s basically the exact same mindset.

Christian fundies, of course, think they’re pleasing God. They are what God wants – true believers who are interested only in promoting and defending the paradigm God wants promoted and defended (as they conceive of it).

Nothing about Christianity, as far as I can see, demands the fundamentalist mindset. The Bible certainly doesn’t. The vast majority of Christians over the centuries haven’t had the fundie mindset. Even today, the fundamentalist community, noisy as it may be, is viewed mostly as a curiosity by other Christians.

The fundie mindset is really a way to hide from truth, not defend it.

Why, then, do people adopt the fundie mindset? It makes life simple. It provides a rock of certainty, a security blanket, in an uncertain world. Christian fundies may sincerely believe they're pleasing God.

To me, even if what fundies believe is 100% correct, adopting the fundie mindset is a mistake. The truth will survive scrutiny and questioning. If a doctrine is true, scrutiny will only increase one’s appreciation and understanding of it.

The fact is (to take one obvious example), the Bible won’t survive scrutiny as the 100% literally true Word of God, correct and inerrant in everything it asserts, whether theological, historical or scientific. Clinging to a notion such as this does more harm than good, both to the believer who clings to it and to those who can see what he is doing.

I can live with a fair amount of uncertainty, ambiguity and mystery in my Christianity. Fundies can’t – and that’s their loss, in my opinion.
Brilliant! Most do not want truth. They think all have the right to an opinion and ALL opinions are equally valid. There is no love of the truth. That means they won’t find it. Many don’t even know it’s there.

Regarding the Bible, when a man lives by its teachings as Jesus presented them, there is much that becomes clear and it’s much more complex than Sunday school.

For example, how many christians believe God spoke and POOF animal etc suddenly appeared? Sunday school. What about God speaking those powerful words full of his energy that took varying lengths of time (unmeasured since the “clock” hadn’t been created yet) to bring forth life in varying forms?

Jesus said if we keep his teachings, we will come to know the truth. The truth is more complex than expected at times.
 
Brilliant! Most do not want truth. They think all have the right to an opinion and ALL opinions are equally valid. There is no love of the truth. That means they won’t find it. Many don’t even know it’s there.

Regarding the Bible, when a man lives by its teachings as Jesus presented them, there is much that becomes clear and it’s much more complex than Sunday school.

For example, how many christians believe God spoke and POOF animal etc suddenly appeared? Sunday school. What about God speaking those powerful words full of his energy that took varying lengths of time (unmeasured since the “clock” hadn’t been created yet) to bring forth life in varying forms?

Jesus said if we keep his teachings, we will come to know the truth. The truth is more complex than expected at times.
Yes, absolutely, Dorothy Mae . If I may, I'll also offer another plug for the Orthodox view of the faith. I'll include wondering on this reply since she and I have discussed Orthodoxy.

I was reading some Orthodox theology last night and had sort of an epiphany as to why I'm attracted to them even though I'm not Orthodox.

In much of Protestantism, and certainly the fundamentalist segment, the doctrines are little more than the boxes to be checked:

The Trinity: Yep, I believe it. Check.
Virgin Birth: Yep, check.​
Incarnation: Check.
Atonement: Check.
Resurrection: Check.
Check, check, check - I'm good to go.
Even at the highest levels of Protestant theology, it all seems very "mechanical." Even with someone like William Lane Craig, the effort is to "explain" the doctrines, to "fill in the blanks."

With the Orthodox, it's more like each doctrine is a Deep Mystery to be contemplated. A doctrine like the Trinity is more like a multi-faceted jewel to be contemplated from every possible angle. Not "what is it and how does it work," but more like "what does it mean, what does it tell us about God and ourselves?" I at least find it much deeper and more profound.

One thought I left out of my original post is how fragile fundamentalism is. Because a fundamentalist can't allow the tiniest crack in the dike, if a crack does appear the whole thing collapses.

This is what happened with noted NT scholar/agitator Bart Ehrman. He went from rigid fundamentalist to complete skeptic upon discovering that there were actually variations and errors (most very small and insignificant) in the NT manuscripts. If everything wasn't tidy and perfect, it couldn't be trusted at all.
 
Yes, absolutely, Dorothy Mae . If I may, I'll also offer another plug for the Orthodox view of the faith. I'll include wondering on this reply since she and I have discussed Orthodoxy.

I was reading some Orthodox theology last night and had sort of an epiphany as to why I'm attracted to them even though I'm not Orthodox.

In much of Protestantism, and certainly the fundamentalist segment, the doctrines are little more than the boxes to be checked:

The Trinity: Yep, I believe it. Check.
Virgin Birth: Yep, check.​
Incarnation: Check.
Atonement: Check.
Resurrection: Check.
Check, check, check - I'm good to go.
Even at the highest levels of Protestant theology, it all seems very "mechanical." Even with someone like William Lane Craig, the effort is to "explain" the doctrines, to "fill in the blanks."

With the Orthodox, it's more like each doctrine is a Deep Mystery to be contemplated. A doctrine like the Trinity is more like a multi-faceted jewel to be contemplated from every possible angle. Not "what is it and how does it work," but more like "what does it mean, what does it tell us about God and ourselves?" I at least find it much deeper and more profound.

One thought I left out of my original post is how fragile fundamentalism is. Because a fundamentalist can't allow the tiniest crack in the dike, if a crack does appear the whole thing collapses.

This is what happened with noted NT scholar/agitator Bart Ehrman. He went from rigid fundamentalist to complete skeptic upon discovering that there were actually variations and errors (most very small and insignificant) in the NT manuscripts. If everything wasn't tidy and perfect, it couldn't be trusted at all.
I agree on all.
Orthodoxy is more mystical.
Maybe more spiritual?

I do think that Wm L Craig must certainly ponder all these topics he addresses. He is a philosopher after all and perhaps needs a simple way to explain things. I enjoy Pawson's teachings...he seems to delve in - at least more than others.

Ehrman...agreed 100%.
I've always felt the same. He just couldn't accept that the bible was not 100% in sync with itself.
This made him not trust who wrote it.

After all, what is our faith based on?
Jesus? Maybe.
I'd say it's based on our trust of those that wrote ABOUT Jesus...
The Apostles.
We either trust them with their knowledge and experience of our Lord,
or we don't.
In which case, we have nothing else to turn to.

Would you agree?
 
(Apparently only myself, Dorothy Mae and Mister E even look at this forum, so this will be my last thread here. I don't believe I'm unorthodox at all, or that this thread is unorthodox either, but the standard of these forums seems to be that "unorthodox" is roughly defined as "You wouldn't hear that in Vacation Bible School" or perhaps "Go away, we don't want to have to think about stuff like that.")

Fundamentalists are everywhere, not just in religion. The New Atheist movement is full of them. The JFK assassination conspiracy community is full of them. The scientific community is full of them.

I have extensive experience with all these groups. I don’t know how many times I’ve pointed out to an atheist that his atheism is the functional equivalent of a religion and he's a closed-minded fundamentalist zealot just like the Christian “fundies” he detests.

What do all fundamentalists have in common? They’re wedded to a particular paradigm – for most fundamentalist atheists and scientists, its naturalistic materialism – and won't even consider anything that might challenge the paradigm. They're more interested in “defending the paradigm” than “the truth.”

Philosopher of science Thomas Kuhn brilliantly described how this works in his classic, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions.

Mountains of evidence challenge the materialistic paradigm. An honest seeker of truth would confront this evidence. Perhaps he would remain a materialist, but he would deal with the evidence.

A fundamentalist can’t allow the tiniest crack in his paradigm. Conflicting evidence must be shouted down and ridiculed. We see this all the time as the proponents of Intelligent Design attempt to get a fair hearing by the scientific community. They are dismissed as "closet Creationists," their work is ridiculed as "pseudoscience."

Are Christian “fundies” any different? (I’m not using the term in any technical way, but in the way most people now understand it, as an extreme Bible literalist.) I don’t think so. It’s basically the exact same mindset.

Christian fundies, of course, think they’re pleasing God. They are what God wants – true believers who are interested only in promoting and defending the paradigm God wants promoted and defended (as they conceive of it).

Nothing about Christianity, as far as I can see, demands the fundamentalist mindset. The Bible certainly doesn’t. The vast majority of Christians over the centuries haven’t had the fundie mindset. Even today, the fundamentalist community, noisy as it may be, is viewed mostly as a curiosity by other Christians.

The fundie mindset is really a way to hide from truth, not defend it.

Why, then, do people adopt the fundie mindset? It makes life simple. It provides a rock of certainty, a security blanket, in an uncertain world. Christian fundies may sincerely believe they're pleasing God.

To me, even if what fundies believe is 100% correct, adopting the fundie mindset is a mistake. The truth will survive scrutiny and questioning. If a doctrine is true, scrutiny will only increase one’s appreciation and understanding of it.

The fact is (to take one obvious example), the Bible won’t survive scrutiny as the 100% literally true Word of God, correct and inerrant in everything it asserts, whether theological, historical or scientific. Clinging to a notion such as this does more harm than good, both to the believer who clings to it and to those who can see what he is doing.

I can live with a fair amount of uncertainty, ambiguity and mystery in my Christianity. Fundies can’t – and that’s their loss, in my opinion.
Can you be a Christian fundamentalist without the fundamentalist mindset ? And what would that look like ?
 
I agree on all.
Orthodoxy is more mystical.
Maybe more spiritual?

I do think that Wm L Craig must certainly ponder all these topics he addresses. He is a philosopher after all and perhaps needs a simple way to explain things. I enjoy Pawson's teachings...he seems to delve in - at least more than others.

Ehrman...agreed 100%.
I've always felt the same. He just couldn't accept that the bible was not 100% in sync with itself.
This made him not trust who wrote it.

After all, what is our faith based on?
Jesus? Maybe.
I'd say it's based on our trust of those that wrote ABOUT Jesus...
The Apostles.
We either trust them with their knowledge and experience of our Lord,
or we don't.
In which case, we have nothing else to turn to.

Would you agree?
The Holy Spirit does reveal to us the deeper truth in the bible and I think is a necessary part of our Christian experience .
If you are not a Christian you do not get the Holy Spirit revealing .
 
Fundamentalists cannot have their paradigm challenged, probably for the reasons you've stated...a closed mind, fear of the truth, it makes life simple - no thinking involved.
Yes. Their teaching/discussion tends to have a dryness to it that leaves a Truth seeker seeking elsewhere. Their study guides and workbooks remind me of memorizing multiplication and division tables but never really making it to long division, algebra and geometry.

It appears to me to be a foundational issue.
 
Yes, absolutely, Dorothy Mae . If I may, I'll also offer another plug for the Orthodox view of the faith. I'll include wondering on this reply since she and I have discussed Orthodoxy.

I was reading some Orthodox theology last night and had sort of an epiphany as to why I'm attracted to them even though I'm not Orthodox.

In much of Protestantism, and certainly the fundamentalist segment, the doctrines are little more than the boxes to be checked:

The Trinity: Yep, I believe it. Check.
Virgin Birth: Yep, check.​
Incarnation: Check.
Atonement: Check.
Resurrection: Check.
Check, check, check - I'm good to go.
Even at the highest levels of Protestant theology, it all seems very "mechanical." Even with someone like William Lane Craig, the effort is to "explain" the doctrines, to "fill in the blanks."

With the Orthodox, it's more like each doctrine is a Deep Mystery to be contemplated. A doctrine like the Trinity is more like a multi-faceted jewel to be contemplated from every possible angle. Not "what is it and how does it work," but more like "what does it mean, what does it tell us about God and ourselves?" I at least find it much deeper and more profound.

One thought I left out of my original post is how fragile fundamentalism is. Because a fundamentalist can't allow the tiniest crack in the dike, if a crack does appear the whole thing collapses.

This is what happened with noted NT scholar/agitator Bart Ehrman. He went from rigid fundamentalist to complete skeptic upon discovering that there were actually variations and errors (most very small and insignificant) in the NT manuscripts. If everything wasn't tidy and perfect, it couldn't be trusted at all.
Exactly! There are many, apparently, leaving the super spiritual churches (catch the fire, hillsong, etc) who are deep into experiencing the supernatural (they call it God) and running to Calvinism with its intellectual appeal.

I personally seek answers not mystery. I think if Jesus were to enter a trinity discussion he would say, “why do you debate about the Fathers nature instead of what “forgive your neighbor” means? Is it not to deflect the weight of living the words, a matter you are responsible to do, and instead concentrate on that which you cannot understand? Do what you already understand to do and more understanding will be given. Neglect what you know to do, and even what you understood will be taken away.”
 
The Holy Spirit does reveal to us the deeper truth in the bible and I think is a necessary part of our Christian experience .
If you are not a Christian you do not get the Holy Spirit revealing .
There are a lot of Christians to whom the Holy Spirit isn’t able to reveal much of any deeper truths. It isn’t automatic. That is actually @Runner’s point.
 
There are a lot of Christians to whom the Holy Spirit isn’t able to reveal much of any deeper truths. It isn’t automatic. That is actually @Runner’s point.
A case in point, one guy here believes the stories kids tell of when they “chose” their parents. I wonder if they “changed their minds” when the teens overtook them. Anyway, he really believes this. How can the Holy Spirit teach that sort of mind any truth?
 
There are a lot of Christians to whom the Holy Spirit isn’t able to reveal much of any deeper truths. It isn’t automatic. That is actually @Runner’s point.
The thing that is of most importance is the Christian receptive to the leading of the Holy Spirit or are they locked into their own understanding . The problem is not with the Holy Spirit .
 
The thing that is of most importance is the Christian receptive to the leading of the Holy Spirit or are they locked into their own understanding . The problem is not with the Holy Spirit .
I have found that all stubbornness in refusing to consider other scriptures lies not in innocent confusion but that the cherished theology offers something that appeals to the wrong in a man.

For example, no man can seek
God unless God first changes the man, the author of the OP’s position.

This puts on the responsibility for the impetus to seek God and eventually salvation squarely on God. No man can then be blamed for failure to do so. It’s all Gods fault. See what that appeals to?
 
Yes. Their teaching/discussion tends to have a dryness to it that leaves a Truth seeker seeking elsewhere. Their study guides and workbooks remind me of memorizing multiplication and division tables but never really making it to long division, algebra and geometry.

It appears to me to be a foundational issue.
I think they try desperately to prove that they're right.

Some guy on YouTube was teaching that it was feasible for dinosaurs to be put on the Ark because some were very small.

It gets crazy.
 
The Holy Spirit does reveal to us the deeper truth in the bible and I think is a necessary part of our Christian experience .
If you are not a Christian you do not get the Holy Spirit revealing .
Agreed.
Basically because the non born of the spirit do not understand the ways of God.
It takes the Holy Spirit working In us to understand God's ways.

He doesn't go to dwell where He's not wanted.
 
It’s the same with Protestant fundamentalism

They're more interested in “defending the paradigm” than “the truth.”

They are more interested in holding to their five sola’s than the truth of scripture!

Fundamentalism: faith without reason.
Atheism: reason without faith.
Thanks
 
The atheist wants to be his own God.
The Protestant wants to be his own pope.

the motive of pride, and the nature of pride is always to protest, rebellion, and to stand in opposition!

On the other hand

The nature of humility is always faithfulness, obedience, subjection, and meekness!

A Virtue of Jesus Christ!

Humility is the foundation of all the other virtues hence, in the soul in which this virtue does not exist, there cannot be any other virtue except in mere appearance.
—St. Augustine

Humility is truth! Any exaggeration either way, to belittle or to self-aggrandize is a violation of the virtue of humility.

Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Btw many are atheists because they want to be free, free from the moral law, so to say there is no God is to say there is no morals!
Thanks
 
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